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#2442583 - 01/28/18 09:38 PM thumperdart vs andy's fi
dodger mope Offline
member

Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 195
Loc: in the middle
it would be great fun to see a dino showdown between thumperdarts carburetors against andys fuel injection.using andy 470 engine, intake and
and all... i would bet a dollar,but i am sure witch one?

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#2442629 - 01/28/18 10:32 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2433
Loc: Washington
Id bet on the carb
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Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2442640 - 01/28/18 10:39 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
WHITEDART Online   laugh2
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2461
Loc: bean town ....Ca
If you could bring the fuel in with the fuel injection above the butterfly it'll make the same power as the carburetor and I bet the fuel injection accelerate the car faster.. again only if you bring the fuel in above the butterfly.. my opinion only..
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In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
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#2442645 - 01/28/18 10:44 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
hemi-itis Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 10840
Loc: Great Neck,LI,new york
That would be a cool comparison worthy of ink,,,,as long as Dom has the chance to make a few pulls and adjust accordingly.


Or bring 5 carbs to find the best combo!

What do I know,I'm using 2 toilette bowls,,,LOL
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#2442657 - 01/28/18 10:56 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: hemi-itis]
pittsburghracer Online   work
"Little"John

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 13642
Loc: PA.
Actual track runs would be extra nice and a way better comparison.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2442658 - 01/28/18 10:56 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24805
Loc: Oregon
I did that test last year. EFI made more power on race gas, power was down a little bit with Q16 due to injector location.



Attachments
EFI v Carb.pdf (133 downloads)



Edited by AndyF (01/29/18 12:14 AM)

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#2442761 - 01/29/18 06:42 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: AndyF]
sgcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 4039
Loc: Charlotte, North Carolina
Originally Posted By AndyF
I did that test last year. EFI made more power on race gas, power was down a little bit with Q16 due to injector location.


Ah! But EFI has a self adjusting feature. Who was there to correct the carb circuits and were the right circuits corrected or just masking missed calibrations?

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#2442798 - 01/29/18 08:35 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
ccdave Offline
The Ultimate

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 1767
Loc: Mopar Country, Mi
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Actual track runs would be extra nice and a way better comparison.



That's a great idea up I guess a few things would have to change on a EFI car at the track to make this happen...

1. different ignition system for the carb?

2. fuel pump? Maybe regulate down to 7psi?

3 Distributor????

I would love to see a real world comparison drinking

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#2442824 - 01/29/18 09:45 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
DaveRS23 Online   content
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 4774
Loc: Benton, IL.
Excellent idea! But there does need to be 2 other factors considered that I think everyone would also need to know. Total actual costs for each and the difficulty level for the average guy.

My personal opinion is that each system will have areas where they out-perform the other with the overall advantage going to EFI.

But the carb (if properly tuned) will be much less expensive, even after Thumper's magic and much simpler to install.

If/when EFI gets close to tuned carb pricing, I might consider making the switch. But here's the rub; my Thumper tuned Dominator may not be perfect. But the car behaves so well, that it is hard to imagine how much better several thousand dollars worth of EFI could make it.
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#2442832 - 01/29/18 09:56 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: DaveRS23]
WHITEDART Online   laugh2
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2461
Loc: bean town ....Ca
I use a carburetor because of cost effectiveness.. and if money was no object I assure you I would be running fuel injection.. I'm sure Thumpers carb will perform well.. but I definitely think the writing is on the wall concerning the future...


Edited by WHITEDART (01/29/18 09:57 AM)
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In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
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#2442853 - 01/29/18 10:41 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Al_Alguire Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16871
Loc: Las Vegas
Leonard Long made the switch on his car two years ago. He is a very smart guy with an endless budget having some of the best in the business working on his stuff. He saw ZERO hp with the engine and the car slowed down. In 2016 he struggled with the combo but in 2017 it came around for him and he as able to win the NA10.5 championship again. He had a lot of help from some friends of his in the Rotary engine wars. They think outside the box and basically told him and his engine builder and dyno guys that you have to put an injector where the engine is telling you it wants it. IF that means on the inside of a given runner half way up the runner than that's where one goes. I am not sure of his total configuration now but last year when we were talking to him and his guys there were 22 injectors on his engine. Sheet metal intake with 8 injectors up top.

FWIW he has been 7.80's with his SB Ferd in NA10.5. He is always trying new stuff. Last year mid season was a lenco drive and converter with his G Force trans, Leonard is the owner of G Force fyi. This year not sure what he has going on but he tackled this EFI deal at the end of 2015 and is now back to where he was at the end of that year. I can tell you all of us involved in NA 10.5 are watching, but so far he is the only one to take the leap. We have heard the stories and seen first hand how it works. It almost cost him the Championship in 2017 when they struggled with electrical gremlins in Norwalk..

Guess what I'm saying is this guy has the best people involved in his program, Vizner builds his engines and the Bartons have helped with the EFI set up. Money is no object for Leonard and he struggled a fair amount with it. We have some fast cars in the class for sure and we are all watching.
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#2442898 - 01/29/18 12:26 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18969
Loc: State of confusion
As much as I bust his ass, I respect his info and the time he puts into his testing plus his products and would love to work something out like that...........let's making it happen............ thumbs
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72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#2442899 - 01/29/18 12:27 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Al_Alguire]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2433
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By Al_Alguire
Leonard Long made the switch on his car two years ago. He is a very smart guy with an endless budget having some of the best in the business working on his stuff. He saw ZERO hp with the engine and the car slowed down. In 2016 he struggled with the combo but in 2017 it came around for him and he as able to win the NA10.5 championship again. He had a lot of help from some friends of his in the Rotary engine wars. They think outside the box and basically told him and his engine builder and dyno guys that you have to put an injector where the engine is telling you it wants it. IF that means on the inside of a given runner half way up the runner than that's where one goes. I am not sure of his total configuration now but last year when we were talking to him and his guys there were 22 injectors on his engine. Sheet metal intake with 8 injectors up top.

FWIW he has been 7.80's with his SB Ferd in NA10.5. He is always trying new stuff. Last year mid season was a lenco drive and converter with his G Force trans, Leonard is the owner of G Force fyi. This year not sure what he has going on but he tackled this EFI deal at the end of 2015 and is now back to where he was at the end of that year. I can tell you all of us involved in NA 10.5 are watching, but so far he is the only one to take the leap. We have heard the stories and seen first hand how it works. It almost cost him the Championship in 2017 when they struggled with electrical gremlins in Norwalk..

Guess what I'm saying is this guy has the best people involved in his program, Vizner builds his engines and the Bartons have helped with the EFI set up. Money is no object for Leonard and he struggled a fair amount with it. We have some fast cars in the class for sure and we are all watching.




Thanks for the great info.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2442910 - 01/29/18 12:41 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
pittsburghracer Online   work
"Little"John

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 13642
Loc: PA.
Didn’t we have a few Moparts members switch over to fuel injection years ago and their cars haven’t hit the track since. I’ve read some real struggles on here.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2442948 - 01/29/18 01:58 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 31572
Loc: Bend,OR USA
I think to many car guys think there is magic in electronics, maybe there is devil
But when it comes to basics of a internal N/A combustion motors on gasoline it takes a certain amount of fuel and air to make a stated amount of power, no matter how you mix it shruggy
That being considered carbs. are more sensitive and less tuneable when running under different weather conditions and elevation changes with out changes, EFI can and will adapt to those same changes seamlessly up work
Is NHRA Pro Stock running faster now with EFI and no hood bump than when they ran twin carbs with a hood scoop work stirthepot grin whistling


Edited by Cab_Burge (01/29/18 02:01 PM)
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#2443056 - 01/29/18 05:47 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Cab_Burge]
GY3 Offline


Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 2528
Loc: Wichita
I have a $100 carb that has zero electrical connections to have issues, starts and runs perfectly and gets decent mileage to boot.

Spending 10x that amount for similar results is foolish IMO.

For other applications it may be feasible but not on mine.
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'63 Dodge 330
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Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's
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#2443057 - 01/29/18 05:53 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9890
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Just different ways to do the same thing, some people think digitally and some can picture fuel and air flowing through circuits in a carb. There are tons of dyno tests all over on the line and you can find a bunch to back up witchever one you think is best.

What it all boils down to is a carb will restrict air flow slightly more and need more manual tuning for temp/alt changes but a carb is gonna evaporate the fuel a little more on the way down the runner, carbs have also been wrung out 100 years longer. EFI can also tune each cylinder to get the absolute most HP out of it, thats a little harder to do with a carb.

And for what its worth the guy tuning with a all out engine on EFI ain't probably gonna rely very much on the self tuning aspect.

On the other hand a carb is a lot cheaper and you can usually get more HP spending an extra thou or two on cylinder heads or exhaust or a plethora of other things that will make more difference than EFI.

Last but not least look at what the pinacle of motorsports are running, guys like formula 1 or 24 hrs daytona type stuff and there are no carbs in sight. When MPG is the goal you can't beat EFI, a carb can not cut off fuel on decell and other things.
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#2443063 - 01/29/18 06:00 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
feets Offline
Senior Management

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27242
Loc: Irving, TX
You will not see an appreciable difference on the dyno. Carb will have a slight advantage due to where the fuel enters the airstream.

When you get to the track and a stray cloud covers the sun the EFI will have the advantage.

When density changes due to a front passing through the EFI will have the advantage.

And on and on.

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#2443076 - 01/29/18 06:32 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5892
Loc: Tulsa OK
I am a big EFI fan and will never go back to a carb, at least on my current car.

I think people put to much stock in the "self tuning" aspect of it though. They will tune to whatever AFR they are programmed for, it doesn't mean that it is right for your engine. That is something that you or your tuner need to find that happy place. Then you need to make the adjustments so it hits those targets in all conditions.

It would be unfair to do a Dyno test and not have several hours of tune time for both systems. There is no slap it on and flog it system that is perfect out of the box.
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#2443082 - 01/29/18 06:43 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
JAMESDART Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 520
Loc: nj
2 guys I talked to, one Chevy and one mopar both told me in the end they had over $10,000 into their multi port efi swap. One guy asked me how I liked my ez efi, when I told him I wasn't 100% sold on it and kind of wished I left the trouble free carb I had, he said yeah his had been a real nightmare, had way more into it than he ever imagined. No kidding I'd never expect to be up to 10 grand. That's just crazy.

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#2443089 - 01/29/18 07:31 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24805
Loc: Oregon
The system that I'm putting on my Duster is top of the line Holley stuff. I'm not sure what the total cost is, maybe around $5000. But you don't need a distributor, crank trigger, carb, ignition box, coil, racepak, gauges, etc. So if you are starting from scratch it is about a wash.

Plus it is a cleaner install. Getting rid of all of the gauges, and misc ignition stuff like start retard, two step, high speed retard, etc. is a benefit to me.

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#2443296 - 01/30/18 07:58 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: AndyF]
MattW Offline
master

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2652
Loc: Ontario Canada
Both fully sorted out systems, the carb makes a hair more peak power.
Now EFI has infinite adjustability, mid range, cold starts, MPG, Not washing out cylinders on start up, ect.
Carbs are simple to install.
EFI requires much more.
Matt

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#2443334 - 01/30/18 09:36 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: MattW]
EV2DEMON Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 6508
Loc: Indiana
I think it really depends on your particular situation. If you have a finished car that's been sorted out and runs well with a carb, the benefits of changing to EFI are probably marginal. You have to ask if cold starting, idle quality, etc are worth the cost.

For a new build, a good EFI system isn't terribly more expensive than a quality carb. I'm using a Holley sequential system on my new build, and I'll probably into it for around $3000, not counting fuel system which would be needed for a carb anyway. I went with HP, not Dominator which saved a few bucks and should suffice for my goals.

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#2443342 - 01/30/18 09:47 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
JACK1440 Offline
mopar

Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 419
Loc: MD
What about mechanical injection like a Ron's Toilet bowl?

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#2443375 - 01/30/18 10:41 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: JACK1440]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2433
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By JACK1440
What about mechanical injection like a Ron's Toilet bowl?




Two totally different systems.
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Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2443376 - 01/30/18 10:42 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: MattW]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2433
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By MattW
Both fully sorted out systems, the carb makes a hair more peak power.
Now EFI has infinite adjustability, mid range, cold starts, MPG, Not washing out cylinders on start up, ect.
Carbs are simple to install.
EFI requires much more.
Matt



Who gets fuel wash on start up? The only time I've seen that was with a choke. I haven't run a choke since 1983.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2443379 - 01/30/18 10:50 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
fullmetaljacket Offline
master

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 6512
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
My ThumpD carb starts up just fine and idles a little rough till it warms up the engine, then it smooths out like a pup.

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#2443402 - 01/30/18 11:18 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: AndyF]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18969
Loc: State of confusion
Originally Posted By AndyF
The system that I'm putting on my Duster is top of the line Holley stuff. I'm not sure what the total cost is, maybe around $5000. But you don't need a distributor, crank trigger, carb, ignition box, coil, racepak, gauges, etc. So if you are starting from scratch it is about a wash.

Plus it is a cleaner install. Getting rid of all of the gauges, and misc ignition stuff like start retard, two step, high speed retard, etc. is a benefit to me.



I can build, test and sell a Dommy that can and DID win Drag Week and get 15+ mpg's for $1,200.............. work beer
_________________________
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#2443409 - 01/30/18 11:25 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
VernMotor Offline


Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 7190
Loc: Mt.Vernon ,Ohio
As a auto tech I work on EFI everyday not sure I want it on my race car. I can see spending a lot of money to do it.
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Racing is not a Hobby,But a way of Life 2000-2001 Pacemakers Major JR Dragster Champion 2005 PRO Class Champion 2006 PRO Class Champoin 2011 Mo-Power Pro champion (Jenni Vernon)

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#2443435 - 01/30/18 12:02 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 5013
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
I think the carb atomized the fuel, where the EFI is injecting un-atomized fuel which would make the EFI fuel harder to burn?

On a street car, the self-tuning of the EFI is really nice. Around here in Colorado a drive can change in altitude quite a bit.
At the track, the carb seems better, but you only have to tune for WOT.

Seems the cost of FI is starting to come down to be competitive with carbs (at least the higher end versions), and you don't have to invest in all the various carb tuning parts like jets, power valves, accelerator pump cams, discharge nozzles, idle and air bleeds, gaskets, and time (or having a shop tune the car.)

The cost of the fuel delivery systems don't seem too much different in costs? In fact I spent more on the fuel system for the carb setup than the EFI setup. The EFI pump was less expensive and the EFI came with the regulator where it cost me extra for the carb setup.

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#2443446 - 01/30/18 12:21 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: 451Mopar]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18969
Loc: State of confusion
If you're just tuning for WOT, you're doing it wrong............Is EFI just for WOT? shruggy
_________________________
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#2443547 - 01/30/18 02:37 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: JACK1440]
gregsdart Offline
master

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 8456
Loc: Frostbitefalls (Rocky&Bullwink...
Originally Posted By JACK1440
What about mechanical injection like a Ron's Toilet bowl?

Since there is no accelerater pumps, a toilet or any mechanical constant flow system would be a nightmare on the street. Super fat idle, fuel draining into the cylinders on shutdown, and heavy wear from washing the cylinders,plus gas contaminating the oil. Trying to get a decent air fuel ratio st part throttle would be quite troublesome as well.


Edited by gregsdart (01/30/18 02:39 PM)
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Educated at SHK U
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528 cubic inch alky injected 440-1 wedge, 3055 race weight.
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#2443694 - 01/30/18 07:18 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Thumperdart]
540challenger Offline
master

Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 2794
Loc: NY usa
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By AndyF
The system that I'm putting on my Duster is top of the line Holley stuff. I'm not sure what the total cost is, maybe around $5000. But you don't need a distributor, crank trigger, carb, ignition box, coil, racepak, gauges, etc. So if you are starting from scratch it is about a wash.

Plus it is a cleaner install. Getting rid of all of the gauges, and misc ignition stuff like start retard, two step, high speed retard, etc. is a benefit to me.



I can build, test and sell a Dommy that can and DID win Drag Week and get 15+ mpg's for $1,200.............. work beer
unless your looking at a multi port efi, throttle body injection system run the same price.

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#2443859 - 01/30/18 11:21 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: 540challenger]
max_maniac Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6156
Loc: Aurora, Oh.
My self I see a dyno test between the two systems useless. We do NOT race dyno numbers we race cars!!!
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63 Dodge Max Wedge NSS
64 Dodge now with a Hemi
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#2443993 - 01/31/18 09:30 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Al_Alguire Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16871
Loc: Las Vegas
Well I quoted REAL WORLD dyno and on track info from a class that is NOT pro stock and is very cutting edge. I know most don't care but guys running NA10.5 are on the cutting edge of engine development. Most everyone is using big name builders and the best parts money can buy all the while pushing the envelope as far as they can to make power within the rules. We have everything from inline wedge headed small blocks, to "conventional headed" BBC's making 1300+hp to spread port small blocks, to the fastest Pontiacs in the country making BIG HP and beyond. Most these guys will spend what it takes and take the time it requires to run up front. IF EFI was faster on track I feel pretty confident many would already be making the leap if there was something there. I salute Leonard and his efforts. He is a leader in innovation and not afraid to tackle something new. But he will admit it has not been easy and still is waiting to eclipse the ET he had with a carb.
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#2444035 - 01/31/18 10:54 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Efidart Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 200
Loc: AB
So many experts chiming in on EFI... I tune both and slightly more carbs on the dyno.

Carb changes are usually absolute. Simple One change, one result. Won't be entirely perfect everywhere but you can make them pretty damn close.

EFI will only be superior when you have a good tuner and granted they know what they are doing.

A half ass self learned EFI system vs a perfectly tuned carb. Wonder which will be better?

Maybe the better way to argue this one is- Well mechanical fuel injection is better. All the top fuel cars run it and they are the fastest!!!.... laugh
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#2444050 - 01/31/18 11:25 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
merpar Offline
member

Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 101
Loc: Nevada
How about an Injecterator? Mine has 2 1/4" butterflies, float bowls, accelerator pump, nozzles and set idle off barrel valve.

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#2444167 - 01/31/18 03:25 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9890
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Be fun to see some of the top secret info for the year NASCAR switched over, probably hundreds of thousands of dyno tests that should show a trend, maybe plot on a graph hp 5 years before and after the switch so you can see how much power was naturally increasing VS a blip for the year they switched. Of course NASCAR has to worry about fuel miledge as well and there is just no way a carb can match it, you can't cut fuel on a carb when coasting, braking, lean it out a little to try and make one last lap on your fuel...
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#2444269 - 01/31/18 07:05 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
Dragula Offline


Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 10336
Loc: Taxes R-US, NY
Originally Posted By madscientist
Id bet on the carb



Ditto...I have already done my own back to back track testing....Carb wins on ET if used on the same manifold.

Some guys see an increase in mid range horsepower with efi, but a dyno will fly right by that....
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'71 Duster Pump Gas 512LD 2013 Mod Gas Winner GRS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_XTmRBuvWs (6.19)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQZGfDBPROM (9.70 at 138.5mph)

'70 Cuda, Plan C....605 Hemi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.31)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

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#2444290 - 01/31/18 07:30 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: HotRodDave]
sgcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 4039
Loc: Charlotte, North Carolina
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
Of course NASCAR has to worry about fuel miledge as well and there is just no way a carb can match it, you can't cut fuel on a carb when coasting, braking, lean it out a little to try and make one last lap on your fuel...


Don't be so sure. Rochester E-jets were doing that back in the 80's.

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#2444315 - 01/31/18 07:56 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Efidart]
cuda499 Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 56
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By Efidart
So many experts chiming in on EFI... I tune both and slightly more carbs on the dyno.

Carb changes are usually absolute. Simple One change, one result. Won't be entirely perfect everywhere but you can make them pretty damn close.

EFI will only be superior when you have a good tuner and granted they know what they are doing.

A half ass self learned EFI system vs a perfectly tuned carb. Wonder which will be better?

Maybe the better way to argue this one is- Well mechanical fuel injection is better. All the top fuel cars run it and they are the fastest!!!.... laugh





Why don't you look at prostock..... seemed to be a change there????

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#2444359 - 01/31/18 08:46 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5892
Loc: Tulsa OK
There was way more to the pro stock change than just EFI.
_________________________
68 Barracuda Formula S 340

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#2444377 - 01/31/18 09:17 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Bad340fish]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2433
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By Bad340fish
There was way more to the pro stock change than just EFI.


Yeah, the stupid rev limiter and that moronic hood. WJ always fantasized about how much faster pro stock would be without the scoop. They are slower and look stupid without a hood scoop.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2444379 - 01/31/18 09:21 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Bad340fish]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18969
Loc: State of confusion
I agree and EFI has it's place for those that want/need it so all good there and whatever works but I personally will never go EFI because I'm learning things I had no clue about just 3 years ago and am getting over all good results. The dyno deal does sound like a good learning experience and if it can happen, I'm in.............. thumbs beer
_________________________
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#2444419 - 01/31/18 10:35 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Al_Alguire]
WHITEDART Online   laugh2
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2461
Loc: bean town ....Ca
Originally Posted By Al_Alguire
Well I quoted REAL WORLD dyno and on track info from a class that is NOT pro stock and is very cutting edge. I know most don't care but guys running NA10.5 are on the cutting edge of engine development. Most everyone is using big name builders and the best parts money can buy all the while pushing the envelope as far as they can to make power within the rules. We have everything from inline wedge headed small blocks, to "conventional headed" BBC's making 1300+hp to spread port small blocks, to the fastest Pontiacs in the country making BIG HP and beyond. Most these guys will spend what it takes and take the time it requires to run up front. IF EFI was faster on track I feel pretty confident many would already be making the leap if there was something there. I salute Leonard and his efforts. He is a leader in innovation and not afraid to tackle something new. But he will admit it has not been easy and still is waiting to eclipse the ET he had with a carb.
after looking at some of the videos with the clear intake manifolds and seen exactly what goes on.. with all the turbulence and Chaos that goes on inside of an intake.. it's amazing how close a carburetor is to a coffee can and a garden hose.. I think injector placement is everything
. I think if you get the injector down low you could possibly accelerate the car quicker on the short side by putting fuel where it needs to be.. but then it will sacrifice up top because the fuel will not mix properly with the air.. if you put the injector up high it'll make more Peak power but acts a lot like a carburetor. After watching my book carburetor on the dyno pulling fuel out every orifice it had.. it's hard to believe the afr's were a steady as they were.. and I watch a lot of the na stuff out there
. And Al is correct. Very few are fuel injected.. I'm excited to be partnered up with a high-end fuel-injected Panella motor.. that we are planning on doing some R&D with... but the serious motor will have a carburetor... shruggy
.


Edited by WHITEDART (01/31/18 10:37 PM)
_________________________
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.42 8.52 159.

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#2444432 - 01/31/18 11:06 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2433
Loc: Washington
On mechanical FI moving the injector up always made more power. I was actually going to move them into the plenum at one point.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2444453 - 01/31/18 11:40 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 9100
Loc: Charleston
So Im at the track one day. I parked right in the middle of a bunch of my customers. Over the loud speaker "lanes are open"

We all jump into a cars and start them up. All the efi cars are dying out. They are restarting and revving up their engines. I look my buddy who makes fun of my carb all the time and say Carburetor as I pull off. He knew what was up
_________________________
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram

performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs

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#2444480 - 02/01/18 01:16 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
FastmOp Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5193
Loc: Hot Rod Ridge
EFI here. Converted my intake 20 years ago.

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#2444595 - 02/01/18 10:24 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5892
Loc: Tulsa OK
I have also been told that there is more power moving the injector away from the runner. The trade off is that it is harder to tune drive ability, not impossible just more difficult. With some EFI systems you can adjust Injector Timing to work it closer to the intake valve opening. There isn't much peak power to be found there but better torque numbers by adjusting injector timing at lower RPMS.

I have even heard of people using a much larger injector than needed and timing the injection event to only happen when the intake valve is open, it reduces fuel being blown back into the intake and helps peak torque numbers. This is all info I got at a tuning class, no first hand but the guy has lots of experience with engine masters entry and some winners even.

Check this video out to see an EFI system doing more than most. This is a Megasquirt 3 Using Closed loop tuning with 8 02 sensors and per cylinder correction. It's interesting to see all the different corrections for each cylinder and how different they are until the intake starts to flow properly at RPM and then they start to line up. You can have this ECU for about $750....8 02 sensors extra of course. For reference on the trim gauges 100% is no correction, anything under it is pulling fuel and anything over it is adding from the base tune.

https://youtu.be/6kQGp-fHuFc
_________________________
68 Barracuda Formula S 340

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#2445353 - 02/02/18 05:19 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: sixpackgut]
Efidart Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 200
Loc: AB
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
So Im at the track one day. I parked right in the middle of a bunch of my customers. Over the loud speaker "lanes are open"

We all jump into a cars and start them up. All the efi cars are dying out. They are restarting and revving up their engines. I look my buddy who makes fun of my carb all the time and say Carburetor as I pull off. He knew what was up


Sounds like you have a real [censored] tuner in your area. Maybe he should go back to knitting for a living.
_________________________
TT Predator headed 572 7 Second Street Car.
Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015
Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017
Pro Street Power Adder Champion Drag Week 2017

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#2445359 - 02/02/18 05:35 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
HemiRick Offline
master

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 4665
Loc: Memphis
There's a reason modern day engines last 300K miles and not 100K and its EFI. I want my hot rod Hemi to last as many miles as possible so it has EFI.....
_________________________
Take care,
Rick
68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451

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#2445371 - 02/02/18 06:10 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: HemiRick]
pittsburghracer Online   work
"Little"John

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 13642
Loc: PA.
For me fast comes before last. Carbs for life because at my age I don’t have time to waste.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2445376 - 02/02/18 06:16 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
WHITEDART Online   laugh2
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2461
Loc: bean town ....Ca
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
For me fast comes before last. Carbs for life because at my age I don’t have time to waste.
John what year are the two porta potties in your signature stirthepot


Edited by WHITEDART (02/02/18 06:17 PM)
_________________________
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8's
5.42 8.52 159.

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#2445381 - 02/02/18 06:38 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: WHITEDART]
pittsburghracer Online   work
"Little"John

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 13642
Loc: PA.
Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
For me fast comes before last. Carbs for life because at my age I don’t have time to waste.
John what year are the two porta potties in your signature stirthepot



I don’t get your point
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2445390 - 02/02/18 07:05 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2433
Loc: Washington
I think he's asking about the two port a potties in the background of the picture in your signature.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2445397 - 02/02/18 07:24 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
pittsburghracer Online   work
"Little"John

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 13642
Loc: PA.
Originally Posted By madscientist
I think he's asking about the two port a potties in the background of the picture in your signature.




Hey don't be making fun of our porta potties. We have flush toilets up on the hill but they put those there for us oldtimes so we can go while waiting to race.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.85 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2445402 - 02/02/18 07:32 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
dartman366 Offline


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 13180
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Originally Posted By madscientist
I think he's asking about the two port a potties in the background of the picture in your signature.




Hey don't be making fun of our porta potties. We have flush toilets up on the hill but they put those there for us oldtimes so we can go while waiting to race.
I need to get one for the garage so I don't have to keep running to the house.
_________________________
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.

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#2448503 - 02/08/18 11:18 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
70RT Charger Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 681
Loc: eastern,Ky
Fi=People who can’t tune and can’t use a screwdriver.


Edited by 70RT Charger (02/08/18 11:19 AM)

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#2448552 - 02/08/18 12:40 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Old School Offline
super stock

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 1167
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
It's the new wave.... with fuel injection and boost, You don't need a whole tool box full of tools. All you need is a laptop and an allen wrench......


Edited by Old School (02/08/18 12:41 PM)
_________________________
68 cuda formula S 588" bb 5sp
70 CUDA CONVERT 500" 5SP (SUBLIME)
70 CUDA CONVERT 500" 5SP (PLUMCRAZY):TOO MUCH HORSEPOWER, IS ALMOST ENOUGH!

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#2448572 - 02/08/18 01:16 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Old School]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 31572
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted By Old School
It's the new wave.... with fuel injection and boost, You don't need a whole tool box full of tools. All you need is a laptop and an allen wrench......

And the ability to understand and apply what is needed to fix it the way you like it, the tune up instead of closed loop work twocents
I'm about to get into that world soon shock luck shruggy grin
I wonder which EFI ECU has the most per second and fastest sample rate work help
_________________________
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

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#2448596 - 02/08/18 02:02 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5892
Loc: Tulsa OK
There is no magical EFI that automatically tunes itself to exactly what your engine needs to make peak power. Can you find something that will run "good enough" with no adjustments or "tuning" yeah, but it won't make peak power. Its just like a carb out of the box, they usually are not right and require some work.

Quote:
Fi=People who can’t tune and can’t use a screwdriver.


I can tune, and use a screw driver. But that sucks, why mess with changing jets and air bleeds, when you can stroke a few keys and jump right back in the lanes. I can usually make needed changes in less time than it takes my water pump and fan to shut off. Should I choose I can do it while belted in. With EFI I actually put more effort into tuning because its so easy, and I have more time to make more passes.
_________________________
68 Barracuda Formula S 340

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#2448630 - 02/08/18 03:14 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Bad340fish]
OUTLAWD Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1905
Loc: Metro Detroit
Originally Posted By Bad340fish


Quote:
Fi=People who can’t tune and can’t use a screwdriver.


I can tune, and use a screw driver. But that sucks, why mess with changing jets and air bleeds, when you can stroke a few keys and jump right back in the lanes. I can usually make needed changes in less time than it takes my water pump and fan to shut off. Should I choose I can do it while belted in. With EFI I actually put more effort into tuning because its so easy, and I have more time to make more passes.




This.

I drive my cars, a lot. I got my old 950 HP dialed in pretty well, but every time I would go for a drive, I would come home and pull the bowls off making PVR and IFR changes and smelling like gas chasing a perfect tune up. Well, it was perfect in the heat of the summer, but then in cooled off in the fall and the car would lean surge down the road...

Now, to see if the car would like more fuel, I click a few buttons and make a pass.

You still have to tune EFI, dropping a self-learning system on is the equivalent of dropping 750 Holley on out of the box and expecting it to be great.

Regarding injector placement. Most OEMS make decisions based on (1) emissions (2) packaging. Having the injectors point directly at the valve helps both of these. Moving them up in the runner will improve mixture preparation and charge cooling, i.e. moar power.
_________________________
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - FITech test rig...

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#2448639 - 02/08/18 03:37 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: OUTLAWD]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 14161
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
I do like the idea of EFI on my junk, but "kind of / sort of" know how to tune a carb... and own a bunch of them that I still want to test.

Other than the $$$ (yeah, if I sold the carbs I'm sure I'd have the cash to go EFI), it's also the expectation that I'd be back to Ground Zero on my tune. Plus, it sure seems like a lot of people who switch to EFI encounter unexpected glitches, etc., that make the conversion effort harder than I think it should be.

I find it amusing that both Braswell and Pro Systems have used expressions like "EFI Headache Cure" on their FB pages. I'm guessing lots of people are expecting today's EFI systems should be sorted out well enough to be almost plug-n-play, then get all wrapped around a telephone pole when the reality hits home that it's a whole new set of challenges (especially if their stuff still isn't running as well as it did w/ their old carb). I don't have the time or patience to be one of those people, if it's going to be so problematic.

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#2448695 - 02/08/18 05:48 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24805
Loc: Oregon
Brad your car would be perfect for EFI. One of the good throttle body kits would go on there fairly quickly and you would enjoy the tuning process. If you already have a MSD distributor and a return style fuel system then a throttle body kit drops on very quickly.

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