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#2444315 - 01/31/18 07:56 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Efidart]
cuda499 Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 45
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By Efidart
So many experts chiming in on EFI... I tune both and slightly more carbs on the dyno.

Carb changes are usually absolute. Simple One change, one result. Won't be entirely perfect everywhere but you can make them pretty damn close.

EFI will only be superior when you have a good tuner and granted they know what they are doing.

A half ass self learned EFI system vs a perfectly tuned carb. Wonder which will be better?

Maybe the better way to argue this one is- Well mechanical fuel injection is better. All the top fuel cars run it and they are the fastest!!!.... laugh





Why don't you look at prostock..... seemed to be a change there????

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#2444359 - 01/31/18 08:46 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5462
Loc: Tulsa OK
There was way more to the pro stock change than just EFI.
_________________________
68 Barracuda Formula S 340

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#2444377 - 01/31/18 09:17 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Bad340fish]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 1822
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By Bad340fish
There was way more to the pro stock change than just EFI.


Yeah, the stupid rev limiter and that moronic hood. WJ always fantasized about how much faster pro stock would be without the scoop. They are slower and look stupid without a hood scoop.
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Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2444379 - 01/31/18 09:21 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Bad340fish]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18424
Loc: State of confusion
I agree and EFI has it's place for those that want/need it so all good there and whatever works but I personally will never go EFI because I'm learning things I had no clue about just 3 years ago and am getting over all good results. The dyno deal does sound like a good learning experience and if it can happen, I'm in.............. thumbs beer
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72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`.....Check me out on FB for stories, videos and lots of carb pics..........760-900-3895........

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#2444419 - 01/31/18 10:35 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Al_Alguire]
WHITEDART Offline
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2148
Loc: bean town
Originally Posted By Al_Alguire
Well I quoted REAL WORLD dyno and on track info from a class that is NOT pro stock and is very cutting edge. I know most don't care but guys running NA10.5 are on the cutting edge of engine development. Most everyone is using big name builders and the best parts money can buy all the while pushing the envelope as far as they can to make power within the rules. We have everything from inline wedge headed small blocks, to "conventional headed" BBC's making 1300+hp to spread port small blocks, to the fastest Pontiacs in the country making BIG HP and beyond. Most these guys will spend what it takes and take the time it requires to run up front. IF EFI was faster on track I feel pretty confident many would already be making the leap if there was something there. I salute Leonard and his efforts. He is a leader in innovation and not afraid to tackle something new. But he will admit it has not been easy and still is waiting to eclipse the ET he had with a carb.
after looking at some of the videos with the clear intake manifolds and seen exactly what goes on.. with all the turbulence and Chaos that goes on inside of an intake.. it's amazing how close a carburetor is to a coffee can and a garden hose.. I think injector placement is everything
. I think if you get the injector down low you could possibly accelerate the car quicker on the short side by putting fuel where it needs to be.. but then it will sacrifice up top because the fuel will not mix properly with the air.. if you put the injector up high it'll make more Peak power but acts a lot like a carburetor. After watching my book carburetor on the dyno pulling fuel out every orifice it had.. it's hard to believe the afr's were a steady as they were.. and I watch a lot of the na stuff out there
. And Al is correct. Very few are fuel injected.. I'm excited to be partnered up with a high-end fuel-injected Panella motor.. that we are planning on doing some R&D with... but the serious motor will have a carburetor... shruggy
.


Edited by WHITEDART (01/31/18 10:37 PM)
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In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8
5.42 1/8

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#2444432 - 01/31/18 11:06 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 1822
Loc: Washington
On mechanical FI moving the injector up always made more power. I was actually going to move them into the plenum at one point.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2444453 - 01/31/18 11:40 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 9048
Loc: Charleston
So Im at the track one day. I parked right in the middle of a bunch of my customers. Over the loud speaker "lanes are open"

We all jump into a cars and start them up. All the efi cars are dying out. They are restarting and revving up their engines. I look my buddy who makes fun of my carb all the time and say Carburetor as I pull off. He knew what was up
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#2444480 - 02/01/18 01:16 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
FastmOp Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5026
Loc: Hot Rod Ridge
EFI here. Converted my intake 20 years ago.

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#2444595 - 02/01/18 10:24 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5462
Loc: Tulsa OK
I have also been told that there is more power moving the injector away from the runner. The trade off is that it is harder to tune drive ability, not impossible just more difficult. With some EFI systems you can adjust Injector Timing to work it closer to the intake valve opening. There isn't much peak power to be found there but better torque numbers by adjusting injector timing at lower RPMS.

I have even heard of people using a much larger injector than needed and timing the injection event to only happen when the intake valve is open, it reduces fuel being blown back into the intake and helps peak torque numbers. This is all info I got at a tuning class, no first hand but the guy has lots of experience with engine masters entry and some winners even.

Check this video out to see an EFI system doing more than most. This is a Megasquirt 3 Using Closed loop tuning with 8 02 sensors and per cylinder correction. It's interesting to see all the different corrections for each cylinder and how different they are until the intake starts to flow properly at RPM and then they start to line up. You can have this ECU for about $750....8 02 sensors extra of course. For reference on the trim gauges 100% is no correction, anything under it is pulling fuel and anything over it is adding from the base tune.

https://youtu.be/6kQGp-fHuFc
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68 Barracuda Formula S 340

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#2445353 - 02/02/18 05:19 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: sixpackgut]
Efidart Offline
member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 199
Loc: AB
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
So Im at the track one day. I parked right in the middle of a bunch of my customers. Over the loud speaker "lanes are open"

We all jump into a cars and start them up. All the efi cars are dying out. They are restarting and revving up their engines. I look my buddy who makes fun of my carb all the time and say Carburetor as I pull off. He knew what was up


Sounds like you have a real [censored] tuner in your area. Maybe he should go back to knitting for a living.
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Fastest Mopar Drag Week 2015
Fastest Mopar & Dodge Drag Week 2017
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#2445359 - 02/02/18 05:35 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
HemiRick Offline
master

Registered: 03/07/03
Posts: 4590
Loc: Memphis
There's a reason modern day engines last 300K miles and not 100K and its EFI. I want my hot rod Hemi to last as many miles as possible so it has EFI.....
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Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T & Charger,and 5 Challengers!

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#2445371 - 02/02/18 06:10 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: HemiRick]
pittsburghracer Offline
Slowride

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 12273
Loc: PA.
For me fast comes before last. Carbs for life because at my age I don’t have time to waste.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.89 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
6.001@113.27mph
9.44@138.23

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2445376 - 02/02/18 06:16 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
WHITEDART Offline
top fuel

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 2148
Loc: bean town
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
For me fast comes before last. Carbs for life because at my age I don’t have time to waste.
John what year are the two porta potties in your signature stirthepot


Edited by WHITEDART (02/02/18 06:17 PM)
_________________________
In the 8s N/A.with Brett miller W8
5.42 1/8

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#2445381 - 02/02/18 06:38 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: WHITEDART]
pittsburghracer Offline
Slowride

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 12273
Loc: PA.
Originally Posted By WHITEDART
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
For me fast comes before last. Carbs for life because at my age I don’t have time to waste.
John what year are the two porta potties in your signature stirthepot



I don’t get your point
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.89 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
6.001@113.27mph
9.44@138.23

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2445390 - 02/02/18 07:05 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 1822
Loc: Washington
I think he's asking about the two port a potties in the background of the picture in your signature.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2445397 - 02/02/18 07:24 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
pittsburghracer Offline
Slowride

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 12273
Loc: PA.
Originally Posted By madscientist
I think he's asking about the two port a potties in the background of the picture in your signature.




Hey don't be making fun of our porta potties. We have flush toilets up on the hill but they put those there for us oldtimes so we can go while waiting to race.
_________________________
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
6.143@110.89 mph
9.73@135.05 mph shifting at 6700 RPM
422 Indy headed small block
6.001@113.27mph
9.44@138.23

Untitled by John Cadamore, on Flickr





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#2445402 - 02/02/18 07:32 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: pittsburghracer]
dartman366 Offline


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 12967
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
Originally Posted By madscientist
I think he's asking about the two port a potties in the background of the picture in your signature.




Hey don't be making fun of our porta potties. We have flush toilets up on the hill but they put those there for us oldtimes so we can go while waiting to race.
I need to get one for the garage so I don't have to keep running to the house.
_________________________
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.

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#2448503 - 02/08/18 11:18 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
70RT Charger Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 661
Loc: eastern,Ky
Fi=People who can’t tune and can’t use a screwdriver.


Edited by 70RT Charger (02/08/18 11:19 AM)

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#2448552 - 02/08/18 12:40 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Old School Offline
super stock

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 1116
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
It's the new wave.... with fuel injection and boost, You don't need a whole tool box full of tools. All you need is a laptop and an allen wrench......


Edited by Old School (02/08/18 12:41 PM)
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68 cuda formula S 588" bb 5sp
70 CUDA CONVERT 500" 5SP (SUBLIME)
70 CUDA CONVERT 500" 5SP (PLUMCRAZY):TOO MUCH HORSEPOWER, IS ALMOST ENOUGH!

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#2448572 - 02/08/18 01:16 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Old School]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 30159
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted By Old School
It's the new wave.... with fuel injection and boost, You don't need a whole tool box full of tools. All you need is a laptop and an allen wrench......

And the ability to understand and apply what is needed to fix it the way you like it, the tune up instead of closed loop work twocents
I'm about to get into that world soon shock luck shruggy grin
I wonder which EFI ECU has the most per second and fastest sample rate work help
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Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

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