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#2443089 - 01/29/18 07:31 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 24642
Loc: Oregon
The system that I'm putting on my Duster is top of the line Holley stuff. I'm not sure what the total cost is, maybe around $5000. But you don't need a distributor, crank trigger, carb, ignition box, coil, racepak, gauges, etc. So if you are starting from scratch it is about a wash.

Plus it is a cleaner install. Getting rid of all of the gauges, and misc ignition stuff like start retard, two step, high speed retard, etc. is a benefit to me.

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#2443296 - 01/30/18 07:58 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: AndyF]
MattW Offline
master

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2646
Loc: Ontario Canada
Both fully sorted out systems, the carb makes a hair more peak power.
Now EFI has infinite adjustability, mid range, cold starts, MPG, Not washing out cylinders on start up, ect.
Carbs are simple to install.
EFI requires much more.
Matt

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#2443334 - 01/30/18 09:36 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: MattW]
EV2DEMON Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 6508
Loc: Indiana
I think it really depends on your particular situation. If you have a finished car that's been sorted out and runs well with a carb, the benefits of changing to EFI are probably marginal. You have to ask if cold starting, idle quality, etc are worth the cost.

For a new build, a good EFI system isn't terribly more expensive than a quality carb. I'm using a Holley sequential system on my new build, and I'll probably into it for around $3000, not counting fuel system which would be needed for a carb anyway. I went with HP, not Dominator which saved a few bucks and should suffice for my goals.

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#2443342 - 01/30/18 09:47 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
JACK1440 Offline
mopar

Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 415
Loc: MD
What about mechanical injection like a Ron's Toilet bowl?

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#2443375 - 01/30/18 10:41 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: JACK1440]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2277
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By JACK1440
What about mechanical injection like a Ron's Toilet bowl?




Two totally different systems.
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Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2443376 - 01/30/18 10:42 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: MattW]
madscientist Offline


Registered: 09/17/14
Posts: 2277
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By MattW
Both fully sorted out systems, the carb makes a hair more peak power.
Now EFI has infinite adjustability, mid range, cold starts, MPG, Not washing out cylinders on start up, ect.
Carbs are simple to install.
EFI requires much more.
Matt



Who gets fuel wash on start up? The only time I've seen that was with a choke. I haven't run a choke since 1983.
_________________________
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston

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#2443379 - 01/30/18 10:50 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
fullmetaljacket Offline
master

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 6464
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
My ThumpD carb starts up just fine and idles a little rough till it warms up the engine, then it smooths out like a pup.

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#2443402 - 01/30/18 11:18 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: AndyF]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18907
Loc: State of confusion
Originally Posted By AndyF
The system that I'm putting on my Duster is top of the line Holley stuff. I'm not sure what the total cost is, maybe around $5000. But you don't need a distributor, crank trigger, carb, ignition box, coil, racepak, gauges, etc. So if you are starting from scratch it is about a wash.

Plus it is a cleaner install. Getting rid of all of the gauges, and misc ignition stuff like start retard, two step, high speed retard, etc. is a benefit to me.



I can build, test and sell a Dommy that can and DID win Drag Week and get 15+ mpg's for $1,200.............. work beer
_________________________
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#2443409 - 01/30/18 11:25 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
VernMotor Offline


Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 7190
Loc: Mt.Vernon ,Ohio
As a auto tech I work on EFI everyday not sure I want it on my race car. I can see spending a lot of money to do it.
_________________________
Racing is not a Hobby,But a way of Life 2000-2001 Pacemakers Major JR Dragster Champion 2005 PRO Class Champion 2006 PRO Class Champoin 2011 Mo-Power Pro champion (Jenni Vernon)

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#2443435 - 01/30/18 12:02 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 4995
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
I think the carb atomized the fuel, where the EFI is injecting un-atomized fuel which would make the EFI fuel harder to burn?

On a street car, the self-tuning of the EFI is really nice. Around here in Colorado a drive can change in altitude quite a bit.
At the track, the carb seems better, but you only have to tune for WOT.

Seems the cost of FI is starting to come down to be competitive with carbs (at least the higher end versions), and you don't have to invest in all the various carb tuning parts like jets, power valves, accelerator pump cams, discharge nozzles, idle and air bleeds, gaskets, and time (or having a shop tune the car.)

The cost of the fuel delivery systems don't seem too much different in costs? In fact I spent more on the fuel system for the carb setup than the EFI setup. The EFI pump was less expensive and the EFI came with the regulator where it cost me extra for the carb setup.

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#2443446 - 01/30/18 12:21 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: 451Mopar]
Thumperdart Offline


Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 18907
Loc: State of confusion
If you're just tuning for WOT, you're doing it wrong............Is EFI just for WOT? shruggy
_________________________
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....

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#2443547 - 01/30/18 02:37 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: JACK1440]
gregsdart Offline
master

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 8382
Loc: Frostbitefalls (Rocky&Bullwink...
Originally Posted By JACK1440
What about mechanical injection like a Ron's Toilet bowl?

Since there is no accelerater pumps, a toilet or any mechanical constant flow system would be a nightmare on the street. Super fat idle, fuel draining into the cylinders on shutdown, and heavy wear from washing the cylinders,plus gas contaminating the oil. Trying to get a decent air fuel ratio st part throttle would be quite troublesome as well.


Edited by gregsdart (01/30/18 02:39 PM)
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GREG
Educated at SHK U
Measure with yardstick
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cut with torch!



528 cubic inch alky injected 440-1 wedge, 3055 race weight.
8.779 at 153.16 mph. 1.289 60 ft. density altitude 1617 feet. Best 60 ft 1.24

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#2443694 - 01/30/18 07:18 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: Thumperdart]
540challenger Offline
master

Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 2792
Loc: NY usa
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By AndyF
The system that I'm putting on my Duster is top of the line Holley stuff. I'm not sure what the total cost is, maybe around $5000. But you don't need a distributor, crank trigger, carb, ignition box, coil, racepak, gauges, etc. So if you are starting from scratch it is about a wash.

Plus it is a cleaner install. Getting rid of all of the gauges, and misc ignition stuff like start retard, two step, high speed retard, etc. is a benefit to me.



I can build, test and sell a Dommy that can and DID win Drag Week and get 15+ mpg's for $1,200.............. work beer
unless your looking at a multi port efi, throttle body injection system run the same price.

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#2443859 - 01/30/18 11:21 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: 540challenger]
max_maniac Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6145
Loc: Aurora, Oh.
My self I see a dyno test between the two systems useless. We do NOT race dyno numbers we race cars!!!
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63 Dodge Max Wedge NSS
64 Dodge now with a Hemi
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#2443993 - 01/31/18 09:30 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Al_Alguire Online   laugh2


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16834
Loc: Las Vegas
Well I quoted REAL WORLD dyno and on track info from a class that is NOT pro stock and is very cutting edge. I know most don't care but guys running NA10.5 are on the cutting edge of engine development. Most everyone is using big name builders and the best parts money can buy all the while pushing the envelope as far as they can to make power within the rules. We have everything from inline wedge headed small blocks, to "conventional headed" BBC's making 1300+hp to spread port small blocks, to the fastest Pontiacs in the country making BIG HP and beyond. Most these guys will spend what it takes and take the time it requires to run up front. IF EFI was faster on track I feel pretty confident many would already be making the leap if there was something there. I salute Leonard and his efforts. He is a leader in innovation and not afraid to tackle something new. But he will admit it has not been easy and still is waiting to eclipse the ET he had with a carb.
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#2444035 - 01/31/18 10:54 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
Efidart Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 200
Loc: AB
So many experts chiming in on EFI... I tune both and slightly more carbs on the dyno.

Carb changes are usually absolute. Simple One change, one result. Won't be entirely perfect everywhere but you can make them pretty damn close.

EFI will only be superior when you have a good tuner and granted they know what they are doing.

A half ass self learned EFI system vs a perfectly tuned carb. Wonder which will be better?

Maybe the better way to argue this one is- Well mechanical fuel injection is better. All the top fuel cars run it and they are the fastest!!!.... laugh
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#2444050 - 01/31/18 11:25 AM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
merpar Offline
member

Registered: 01/27/17
Posts: 94
Loc: Nevada
How about an Injecterator? Mine has 2 1/4" butterflies, float bowls, accelerator pump, nozzles and set idle off barrel valve.

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#2444167 - 01/31/18 03:25 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: dodger mope]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9871
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Be fun to see some of the top secret info for the year NASCAR switched over, probably hundreds of thousands of dyno tests that should show a trend, maybe plot on a graph hp 5 years before and after the switch so you can see how much power was naturally increasing VS a blip for the year they switched. Of course NASCAR has to worry about fuel miledge as well and there is just no way a carb can match it, you can't cut fuel on a carb when coasting, braking, lean it out a little to try and make one last lap on your fuel...
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#2444269 - 01/31/18 07:05 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: madscientist]
Dragula Offline


Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 10305
Loc: Taxes R-US, NY
Originally Posted By madscientist
Id bet on the carb



Ditto...I have already done my own back to back track testing....Carb wins on ET if used on the same manifold.

Some guys see an increase in mid range horsepower with efi, but a dyno will fly right by that....
_________________________
'71 Duster Pump Gas 512LD 2013 Mod Gas Winner GRS
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'70 Cuda, Plan C....605 Hemi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.31)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

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#2444290 - 01/31/18 07:30 PM Re: thumperdart vs andy's fi [Re: HotRodDave]
sgcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 4008
Loc: Charlotte, North Carolina
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
Of course NASCAR has to worry about fuel miledge as well and there is just no way a carb can match it, you can't cut fuel on a carb when coasting, braking, lean it out a little to try and make one last lap on your fuel...


Don't be so sure. Rochester E-jets were doing that back in the 80's.

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