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#2442277 - 01/28/18 12:59 PM 440 Source main stud girdle
MagnumExpress Offline
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Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Wisconsin
Any thoughts good or bad?
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#2442316 - 01/28/18 01:56 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6772
Loc: Warren, MI
if your considering a girdle, check out bcr products. yes we believe they do help eliminate cap walk and are cheap insurance to hold your caps in place.
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#2442412 - 01/28/18 05:19 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Chargerfan68 Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 688
Loc: New York, USA
I do have the 440 source girdle kit on this new build that is going together right now. A good friend of mine is also building a bb stroker snd he got the Bcr kit. It is much , much beefier and very well designed. If i wasnt so far along, i would have switched to the bcr kit. It is 1/2” vs 1/4” thick i believe.

Im sure the 440 source will help somewhat with capwalk, but the Bcr kit is much, much more rigid.
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#2442426 - 01/28/18 05:38 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Happy Birthday '72CudaRacer Offline
top fuel

Registered: 08/31/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: Mooresburg, Tn
The 440 source one is OK, the Hughes engines one is better and BRC's is the best in my opinion. The difference between the first two is the thickness of the girdle itself (everything else is basicly the same). BRC plate is 1/2" thick and is mounted differently. I've used all three, BRC is superior to the others.

Brian


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#2442504 - 01/28/18 07:17 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 30709
Loc: Bend,OR USA
I am going to tell you to not waste your money on a girdle, the stock RB blocks fatal main weakness is the webbing between the bottom of the cylinders and the main bosses, take a hard look their to see what I'm concerned over.
All the stock 400 blocks are a lot thicker between the bottom cylinder walls and the main webbing up None of the other B or RB blocks have the thicker main webbing in them like all the 400 do whiney scope
My message is if you want to build a strong stock block race motor or any other pump gas motor with 600+ HP start with a good 400 block that is sonic tested first and then go from there twocents
I have seen 3 440 blocks and one 426 M.W. block that had cracks in the main webbing between the #1 and #3 cylinder going between the bottom of the cylinders and the main bolt bosses whiney
On the 400 blocks that I am going to build that sonic test well that will exceed 600+ HP I do replace the stock main caps with billet aluminum caps and ARP main studs up
Above 850 HP buy a new race block up
IHTHs thumbs
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#2442517 - 01/28/18 07:41 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: Cab_Burge]
Dave Hall Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1830
Loc: Cotati, CA
The girdle is not a waste on an RB block. I have the same '72 block that ran without a girdle and you could see the cap squirm when removing the main caps. The girdle takes that away and I have been running near 700hp on the track for nearly 14 years with the same block.

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#2442538 - 01/28/18 08:25 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: Dave Hall]
Chargerfan68 Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 688
Loc: New York, USA
Originally Posted By Dave Hall
The girdle is not a waste on an RB block. I have the same '72 block that ran without a girdle and you could see the cap squirm when removing the main caps. The girdle takes that away and I have been running near 700hp on the track for nearly 14 years with the same block.


Just curious: are you talking about a 440 or 400 block? Im using the girdle just for additional peace of mind. I installed on a 400 block.
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#2442546 - 01/28/18 08:37 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
68 HEMI GTS Offline
mopar

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 401
Loc: Temperance, MI
I put a source on my 511. Nice piece. Won’t really know how it’s doing until I pull the motor down for a freshen up.

[img]https://flic.kr/p/23iMAFo[/img]
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#2442547 - 01/28/18 08:46 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: Chargerfan68]
Dave Hall Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1830
Loc: Cotati, CA
RB=413-440

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#2442559 - 01/28/18 09:08 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
MagnumExpress Offline
member

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Wisconsin
I think after looking at both I am going to purchase the BRC part if it will work with my oil pan. I don’t know if the thickness matters a whole bunch, but the BRC definitely attaches to the block better.
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#2442561 - 01/28/18 09:09 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: Dave Hall]
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 30709
Loc: Bend,OR USA
What main caps are you using on this build?
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#2442571 - 01/28/18 09:19 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
RV2 Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Covington Georgia
Are there any issues with clearance to the front of the oil pan to K member with the added depth?

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#2442572 - 01/28/18 09:20 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Happy Birthday '72CudaRacer Offline
top fuel

Registered: 08/31/09
Posts: 1712
Loc: Mooresburg, Tn
Originally Posted By MagnumExpress
I think after looking at both I am going to purchase the BRC part if it will work with my oil pan. I don’t know if the thickness matters a whole bunch, but the BRC definitely attaches to the block better.

I had the same concerns as I run a Milodon Super Stock pan with the tie rod passing through the pan. Turned out to be a non-issue.

Brian

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#2442577 - 01/28/18 09:29 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
MagnumExpress Offline
member

Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Wisconsin
I have been running this same combo for many years. It has stock main caps. I am running a Charlie’s dragster pan with a kick out on right side. Adding a little more power and want some insurance.
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#2442703 - 01/29/18 12:37 AM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
rowin4 Offline
master

Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 5999
Loc: gulfport, ms, west mi
I put a BCR girdle, aluminum caps and ARP studs on my 440 about 9 years ago, after about 1,500 1/4 mile hits it was refreshed. I found 0 cap walk and the main bearings were re-used. The BCR piece is the best out there.
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#2442966 - 01/29/18 02:26 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: rowin4]
ccdave Offline
The Ultimate

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Mopar Country, Mi
I would look at it like this. What does the girdle do? Helps prevent cap walk. What does cap walk do? Under extreme conditions such as high rpm's or detonation or both, the caps will actually lift off the block registers and bounce leaving small marks on both the caps and block registers. When those caps are bouncing off the blocks cap registers ,the webbing around the caps can fatigue and crack.. Them BOOM in some cases..

With that said, if you have the opportunity to HELP prevent the main caps from walking that could ultimately lead to the webbing around the blocks main cap registers cracking and BOOM, I really don't see a reason why you would not want to HELP the main caps from walking/bouncing with the use of a girdle. Aluminum caps is a big big help as well......

popcorn


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#2443029 - 01/29/18 04:53 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
A39Coronet Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/16
Posts: 283
Loc: Usa
The 440 source girdle is EXACTLY the same as what you get from Hughes (unless a recent design change was implemented). Pretty sure they get them from the same source, and use the exact same ARP stud part numbers.

Thickness has no bearing on the effect of the girdle, as it's intention is to eliminate "flag-pole" esk wiggle of the main studs, which attribute to cap walk and reverberation through the block eventually leading to cracks. It is NOT designed to influence lateral twisting of the block itself.

My girdle completely eliminated my capwalk issue, which I have photos of the proof.

The BCR kit is on a completely different level, but, IMO, not worth the machining costs to face the pan rail and the caps to tie everything together. I utilize his aluminum caps with my 440 source/Hughes style girdle and an very happy with that set-up so far.

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#2443113 - 01/29/18 08:11 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6772
Loc: Warren, MI
The cost to deck the bottom of the block is really negligible usually around $100.00, our girdle interfaces with the caps to help hold them down, so you are not relying on just the main studs to hold them in place.

also our oil pan studs have counter bored holes in the girdle so you can bolt the girdle down tight to the block. then if you want use a gasket between the girdle and oil pan. some guys will cut a rubber gasket and install that so they drop the pan and inspect it as needed. this way you don't have to bother the main caps or the girdle.

plus we don't use longer studs to secure girdle to the caps. we use a secondary set of 3/8 bolts to hold the caps to the girdle. this eliminates double stretching the main stud. we also secure the #1 and #5 cap to the girdle with an inboard set of 3/8 studs.
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#2443126 - 01/29/18 08:41 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: Jerry]
dartman366 Offline


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 13057
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Originally Posted By Jerry
The cost to deck the bottom of the block is really negligible usually around $100.00, our girdle interfaces with the caps to help hold them down, so you are not relying on just the main studs to hold them in place.

also our oil pan studs have counter bored holes in the girdle so you can bolt the girdle down tight to the block. then if you want use a gasket between the girdle and oil pan. some guys will cut a rubber gasket and install that so they drop the pan and inspect it as needed. this way you don't have to bother the main caps or the girdle.

plus we don't use longer studs to secure girdle to the caps. we use a secondary set of 3/8 bolts to hold the caps to the girdle. this eliminates double stretching the main stud. we also secure the #1 and #5 cap to the girdle with an inboard set of 3/8 studs.
good design and accurate machine work, I was impressed with mine. up
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#2443140 - 01/29/18 09:05 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Chargerfan68 Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 688
Loc: New York, USA
Yes, my friends block is at the machine shop right now and i saw the setup after the whole setup was milled ans installed. It is impressive. I will purchase this kit for the next build for sure.
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#2443145 - 01/29/18 09:14 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
gsmopar Online   content
super stock

Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 835
Loc: Arizona, USA
What did the machine work cost to make the girdle work. Just curious about the price difference between BRC and an aftermarket block.
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#2447059 - 02/05/18 05:58 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: gsmopar]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16055
I like to learn things from different sources. I posted this a couple of years ago but feel like repeating myself. Mu Taurus SHO engine uses a block designed by Yamaha because the stock Ford Vulcan 3.0 block couldn't handle the power the Yamaha heads were making. Yamaha makes some pretty good engines. Their block uses a girdle that ties all four main bearing caps together. The girdle bolts to each main cap with two capscrews. The windage tray bolts to the girdle with other bolts.

This compact block purpose built by Yamaha is a very high quality casting and is plenty beefy yet the designers used a girdle to tie all the main bearings and webs together. By comparison the B/RB engine is less compact and less rigid. Why wouldn't it also benefit from tying the main caps and webs together? Picture of the girdle and windage tray attached.

R.


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#2447089 - 02/05/18 07:03 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: dogdays]
maximum entropy Offline
master

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 5080
Loc: organ
i'll play!!
having used all three girdles in question, YES! they absolutely DO help. imho, they help in different ways, but they are a simple, reliable way of significantly improving bottom end integrity. the bcr girdle is a LOT of work to install. line hone is an absolute necessity with this girdle, as is some other machine work that may not be available in some areas. the chenoweth (sp) and 440source girdles are much easier to install, and typically do not require any machine work.
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#2447180 - 02/05/18 09:10 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: dogdays]
CTD5.9 Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/28/13
Posts: 758
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By dogdays
I like to learn things from different sources. I posted this a couple of years ago but feel like repeating myself. Mu Taurus SHO engine uses a block designed by Yamaha because the stock Ford Vulcan 3.0 block couldn't handle the power the Yamaha heads were making. Yamaha makes some pretty good engines. Their block uses a girdle that ties all four main bearing caps together. The girdle bolts to each main cap with two capscrews. The windage tray bolts to the girdle with other bolts.

This compact block purpose built by Yamaha is a very high quality casting and is plenty beefy yet the designers used a girdle to tie all the main bearings and webs together. By comparison the B/RB engine is less compact and less rigid. Why wouldn't it also benefit from tying the main caps and webs together? Picture of the girdle and windage tray attached.

R.


it seems like a popular addition to 4 cylinders, here are some pictures of a Mitsubishi 2.3l (4G63).
The main caps are cast together, forming what I believe they call a cradle. There has to be at least some truth to the practice, would be interesting to see one of these for a BB mopar but it would be some crazy $$$$




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#2447310 - 02/06/18 08:06 AM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: CTD5.9]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6772
Loc: Warren, MI
that's pretty much how our girdle works. the girdle sits flush with the bottom of the caps. even our stock replacement caps are made taller to make sure that if you add a girdle later, you're not relying on just the bolts or main studs to hold it down. this extra interface is where the strength comes from just like these factory made cradles. girdle kits are on sale right now for $699.00
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#2447803 - 02/06/18 09:46 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Superfreak Offline
master

Registered: 11/08/08
Posts: 3572
Loc: the great white north
I have a BCR girdle on my RB 493, very nice piece. Bought it from the original guy that started making the kits as he lived not too far from me and he also led me to moparts and for the life of me I can't remember his name.
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#2448030 - 02/07/18 12:12 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: gsmopar]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 4934
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Originally Posted By gsmopar
What did the machine work cost to make the girdle work. Just curious about the price difference between BRC and an aftermarket block.


The BCR kit is really nice if your in the 700+ HP range, but the cost of machining can add up.
You need to find a machine shop that can align bore and hone the new aluminum caps to the block. My regular machine shop does not have the machine to align bore the mains, just hone them and when I called other shops I got several different prices. Then the bottom of the block (pan rails and top of caps) is cut flush too. Been awhile since I did mine, but I'd guess around $500-600 on the low end for machining, and $800+ at the higher end of the quotes I was getting. I paid in the low range, but that was one of those deals where a small machine shop outsourced the work to another shop with the equipment to get a better price.
On my engine, I used the Milodon low profile pan and had no clearance issues with the K-member or steering linkage.

On my 600 HP 440 stroker I am looking at the 440 source girdle because I want the extra 1/4" spacing for the Jegs 4.15" plastic windage tray.

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#2448078 - 02/07/18 01:50 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: 451Mopar]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16055
I believe the girdle does much the same thing as crossbolting the mains. I don't think most people can imagine how much the crank is bending with its various loads.

R.

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#2448082 - 02/07/18 02:07 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6772
Loc: Warren, MI
Cross bolting a block that's not meant to be cross bolted is asking for trouble. also with the cross bolts, your adding clamping on the farthest point away from the crank. yes its better than nothing but not ideal.

the girdle adds clamping right on top of the main caps.

in terms of additional cost, whether you use steel caps or aluminum caps or even cast iron caps from another engine you will always need to line bore the block. all aftermarket caps are made undersize to ensure this happens. the only additional feature the bcr girdle needs is a flat oil pan rail, in most cases when guys mock them up, they don't need more than a few thousandths taken off to make sure everything is flat. this should only costs between $100-200 more at the machine shop. still a long long way away from the cost of an aftermarket block.
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#2448188 - 02/07/18 05:57 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: Jerry]
RalleyA12 Offline


Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 489
Loc: Marilla, New York
Jerry, Do you install the caps/girdle yourself at your shop ?

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#2448602 - 02/08/18 02:15 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Jerry Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6772
Loc: Warren, MI
we have installed them for some people in the past, but don't normally. we aren't an engine building machine shop.
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Facebook page: Superior Design Concepts
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#2448627 - 02/08/18 03:10 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: A39Coronet]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13697
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By A39Coronet
...

Thickness has no bearing on the effect of the girdle, as it's intention is to eliminate "flag-pole" esk wiggle of the main studs, which attribute to cap walk and reverberation through the block eventually leading to cracks. It is NOT designed to influence lateral twisting of the block itself.

You're the only other person I know who has ever put it that way, and it's EXACTLY why I decided to use my CRE girdle w/ my fresh 440 block that was already fitted w/ aluminum caps.

The aluminum caps will still act as a "shock absorber", but the girdle should help keep the caps from doing The Wave. I suspect the studs getting moved around when not supported at the top is one of the things that causes that style of cap to crack when used only with main studs.
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#2448655 - 02/08/18 04:28 PM Re: 440 Source main stud girdle [Re: MagnumExpress]
Clanton Online   content
master

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 3372
Loc: northern,Ohio,USA
I wanted to dowl pin my stock iron caps when I used the Chenoweth 3/4" girdle but I didn't have the cash and this may be an option for some people.
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