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Re: everything you never wanted to know about 904's [Re: Mcode69] #24417
05/28/06 04:55 PM
05/28/06 04:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,984
Anoka County, MN
L
Leigh Online content
master
Leigh  Online Content
master
L

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,984
Anoka County, MN
I wish to thank all the contributers of this post. I don't get to build 904/998/999's very often, and this is very good information from real world school of hard knocks. I had my own 904 5 clutch, roller E/SA debacle back in the late 80's that left a trail of broken parts behind it, and it left a bad taste since then. (I did end up with a shelf of cores and parts though. ) Thanks again.

Re: everything you never wanted to know about 904's [Re: Leigh] #24418
05/28/06 08:15 PM
05/28/06 08:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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ZIPPY  Offline
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Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
Good stuff here, I'll archive this one

If anyone has more tips or pictures to add
please do so

Re: everything you never wanted to know about 904's [Re: ZIPPY] #24419
05/28/06 08:26 PM
05/28/06 08:26 PM
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Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366 Offline
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one other thing to concider is the drilling of a 1/16 hole from the passage under the rear support in to the sprag for better oiling, sorry no pic.


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: everything you never wanted to know about 904's [Re: dartman366] #24420
06/03/06 09:37 AM
06/03/06 09:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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ZIPPY  Offline
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Well I guess that's that, into the archives it goes

Again, if anyone has more info to add...give me a holler.

Even though the membership can not add a reply to this post once it is archived, if you PM me with the info or post it on another board I can add it....and your name will be on it.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: everything you never wanted to know about 904's [Re: ZIPPY] #24421
06/04/06 10:43 AM
06/04/06 10:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
Clutch plates:

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clonestocker
super gas


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Posts: 912
Loc: Tucson, Arizona 904 Clutch Plates?
#2670549 - Fri Jun 02 2006 12:25 PM (216.253.194.218) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Is there a difference in clutch material in the two different clutch packs? Taking my trans apart I have two different types of clutches? The guy at the parts store said it doesn't make a difference. I had Borg Warner in the high gear drum, and these black plates in the direct drum(?). These black plates are falling apart. Is it a problem to use the Borg Warner plates in both clutch packs? thx matt s

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1100HPSmallBlock
member


Reged: Apr 19 2006
Posts: 68
Loc: Jersey Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: clonestocker]
#2670611 - Fri Jun 02 2006 12:49 PM (64.251.156.141) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



The forward (rear clutches) are thinner than the direct(front). If you swap them you have clearance issues.

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8.42 @ 165 MPH

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dartman366
master


Reged: Jan 18 2004
Posts: 3415
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: clonestocker]
#2670617 - Fri Jun 02 2006 12:52 PM (65.24.53.120) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I don't believe it make's any diff on the material, but the thing that I have found is the grooves in the facing, one will have grooves straight across the face and the other will look like a waffle, the only other thing to watch is the thickness of the fiber plate, when I got my master overhaul kit from Mancini the fiber disc's were all the same blue plate material.

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new best of 6.89 1/8 mile and 11.05 1/4 mile.....speed cost's money son,, how fast do you want to go??

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dartman366
master


Reged: Jan 18 2004
Posts: 3415
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: 1100HPSmallBlock]
#2670638 - Fri Jun 02 2006 12:59 PM (65.24.53.120) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Quote:
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The forward (rear clutches) are thinner than the direct(front). If you swap them you have clearance issues.


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that being the case then after reviewing a NAPA kit that I have, then the direct clutches are the waffle ones and yes there is a thickness difference, and the material appears to be the same in that kit also.

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new best of 6.89 1/8 mile and 11.05 1/4 mile.....speed cost's money son,, how fast do you want to go??

Edited by dartman366 (Fri Jun 02 2006 01:01 PM)

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clonestocker
super gas


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Posts: 912
Loc: Tucson, Arizona Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: dartman366]
#2670677 - Fri Jun 02 2006 01:20 PM (216.253.194.218) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



The waffle plates are .082 thick. The other plates are .062 thick. Using the .062 plates allows you to put 5 plates in the front drum. I was told to do this by Dave Smith @ ProTrans. Need more input. thx matt s

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John_Kunkel
master


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Posts: 4945
Loc: Rio Linda, CA Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: clonestocker]
#2671013 - Fri Jun 02 2006 04:47 PM (24.7.147.107) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



One reason for the difference in clutch material is because the rear clutch normally engages at idle with the car at a standstill and remains engaged for all forward gears, the front clutch engages under power.

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'98 Ram QuadCab Sport
'97 Viper GTS
'92 D350 Turbo Diesel Car Hauler
'62 Dart Max Wedge
'62 Dart Wagon 2 door conversion
'62 Lancer Coupe
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clonestocker
super gas


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Posts: 912
Loc: Tucson, Arizona Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: John_Kunkel]
#2671137 - Fri Jun 02 2006 06:03 PM (68.0.167.7) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



John, Do you think it matters if the front drum clutches are in the rear drum also? thx matt s

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dizuster
member


Reged: Jan 12 2005
Posts: 141
Loc: Waterford, MI Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: clonestocker]
#2671385 - Fri Jun 02 2006 08:04 PM (68.248.72.29) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Oh I'm so glad I read this. . . do not put 5 clutch plates in the high gear drum without being very careful. Yes it works but there is a potential for a big problem there. The problem is that the input shaft/rear clutch drum splines do not engage the bottom (5th) clutch. I had one that I went round and round on trying to figure out why it would only flare the 2-3 shift at high rpm. It's because the bottom clutch wasn't engaged which caused it to keep the whole clutch pack from clamping. Now there are several different height rear drum splines, so if you have the right spline height on the drum you can do it, but I have not had good sucess. Search for my other post "everything you never wanted to know about a 904" There is a lot of detail about what I went through. . . Just my 2 cents, and maybe you already have the right rear drum spline, but just be careful!!

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dizuster
member


Reged: Jan 12 2005
Posts: 141
Loc: Waterford, MI Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: dizuster]
#2671387 - Fri Jun 02 2006 08:07 PM (68.248.72.29) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



By the way, I got my original brilliant idea from having a protrans apart from a pro nostalgia car. It seemed like a great idea, but they must make sure they use the correct drum.

Also supposidly because the direct drum is a dynamic apply, the waffle grooves cut in the clutches allow it to relieve the fluid between the plates. That's why the direct clutches are waffled and the rear clutches are not. The rear clutch is on in all forward gears so it never really gets a dynamic apply (unless you neutral slam it of course lol . . )

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DavidDean
super street


Reged: Mar 29 2003
Posts: 192
Loc: Lubbock,TX Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: dizuster]
#2671614 - Fri Jun 02 2006 10:13 PM (64.185.32.101) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



With the right parts as described above I used 5 clutches (thin) in the front drum with good sucess .But as stated above and in the 904 post you must have the right parts.I'm building a spare 904 and I've been back to the trans supply shops a number of times looking for the right parts LOL!

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John_Kunkel
master


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Posts: 4945
Loc: Rio Linda, CA Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: clonestocker]
#2673059 - Sat Jun 03 2006 05:11 PM (24.7.147.107) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Quote:
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John, Do you think it matters if the front drum clutches are in the rear drum also? thx matt s


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The front discs usually have a waffle pattern to allow fluid to be squeezed from between the discs during engagement, the channels in the waffle pattern reduce the actual surface contact area but this is a necessary tradeoff for good application.

The rear clutches aren't applied under power and therefore don't need the waffle pattern so the reduction in surface area has no tradeoff benefit as it does in the front. A flat pattern with occasional diagonal slots and metallic lining is the traditional rear disc and offers the maximum surface area.

My , I'm sure some others will disagree.

--------------------
'98 Ram QuadCab Sport
'97 Viper GTS
'92 D350 Turbo Diesel Car Hauler
'62 Dart Max Wedge
'62 Dart Wagon 2 door conversion
'62 Lancer Coupe
'57 Chrysler New Yorker

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440Jim
moparts member


Reged: Jan 19 2003
Posts: 7902
Loc: Lexington Park, MD Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: John_Kunkel]
#2673763 - Sat Jun 03 2006 11:14 PM (69.72.26.165) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



I agree with John 100%. (or more)

And in the 904, it is more important than the 727 since everything is smaller.

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clonestocker
super gas


Reged: Jan 20 2003
Posts: 912
Loc: Tucson, Arizona Re: 904 Clutch Plates? [Re: John_Kunkel]
#2673898 - Sun Jun 04 2006 12:09 AM (68.0.167.7) Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



Thanks John. matt


Rich H.

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