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#2428082 - 01/02/18 09:38 PM Future of Gen III
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4095
Loc: Canada

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#2428091 - 01/02/18 09:52 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 24438
Loc: Texas
It's very overdue for DOHC and/or Direct Injection...
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#2428096 - 01/02/18 10:09 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4095
Loc: Canada
Direct Injection/Dual Injection for sure. Not sold on the DOHC, with the short stiff pushrods and fantastic head flow they seem fine there

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#2428103 - 01/02/18 10:31 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
A39Coronet Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/16
Posts: 324
Loc: Usa
All it says was "allpar was told"...but by who?

I don't doubt a new powerplant is underway with the ever progressing fuel and emissions standards. Probably par for the course of all manufacturers.

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#2428112 - 01/02/18 10:52 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4095
Loc: Canada
Allpars been pretty dead nuts accurate with its predictions and sources so far

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#2428118 - 01/02/18 11:07 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
RylisPro Offline


Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 2343
Loc: NorCal
They should make it an aluminum block as standard. Less weight would help with fuel efficiency
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#2428142 - 01/02/18 11:52 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: RylisPro]
sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 9080
Loc: Charleston
Originally Posted By RylisPro
They should make it an aluminum block as standard. Less weight would help with fuel efficiency


Exactly

How about making a challenger 7-10% smaller. The damn things are huge
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#2428174 - 01/03/18 02:52 AM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
EagleDuster Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Northern Colorado
YES. I hope they keep the 2-valve layout or they really won't be able to get away with calling it a Hemi anymore, purists still whine the Gen 3 isn't a "true" hemi (yeah whatever)

If they ever get around to it, the next Challenger is supposed to be on a smaller platform shared with the Alfa Giulia. Maybe they're waiting for this new smaller Hemi to get developed so they can use that, Hmmmmmm wink

They should make an aluminum-block version in a throwback 5.2L, would give new meaning to "smoking Mustangs with a 318" heehee
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#2428193 - 01/03/18 07:14 AM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
ric3xrt Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1167
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
Dual over head cam similar to the LT5 but cross flow valve head, like the modern Hemi, 4.7/5.2ish 2020/2022 4.0-4.25 bore spacing.




Would be a logical next step. smile

The power Tech 4.7 was going to grow to a Dual Cam, 5.2 before DC started to have money issues.

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#2432405 - 01/10/18 05:04 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: ric3xrt]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16231
Take a look at the Ford 6.2. Single overhead cam, looks like Hemi valve layout except with a camshaft in the middle where the spark plugs are on the Hemi.
I drove one for 750 miles recently and it is a beautiful sounding engine which tachs right up to 5500rpm redline with no pushrod fuss. I know I will be sandblasted for this, but I just love the sound of that engine around 4000 rpm. Maybe if the rental company had had Dodges I'd be saying the same things about the Hemi, but regardless that 6.2 is a keeper. Slap one in where a 390 used to sit and it'd work wonders.

R.


Attachments
Ford6.2.jpg



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#2432479 - 01/10/18 07:13 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9871
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
they make less HP (385HP) than a smaller 5.7 hemi (395 hp) with all of its "pushrod fuss" I don't get the ferd fuss I guess and they have the same junk cam phasers that start dying around 125,000 that the 5.4 pile o junks had in a nightmare package to work on so I'll pass a 6.2 in more than one ways.
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#2432548 - 01/10/18 09:04 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
EagleDuster Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Northern Colorado
5500 RPM redline in the Ford 6.2L and it's SOHC? What's the point? That's the same as a 5.7 Hemi with those 'antiquated' pushrods...
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1970 Plymouth Duster, 1993 Jeep Cherokee 4x4

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#2432813 - 01/11/18 11:43 AM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: EagleDuster]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16231
I knew that my comments would not go un-carped upon. Did I use the word "antiquated" anywhere?

I don't give a poop about cam phaser problems, I am not buying a ford pickup. Obviously if one wanted to build a hotrod version of the engine the redline would be higher. So what? So pushrods work to 11,000rpm. So what?

You guys fire off comments without doing the research. That's your right, but it doesn't make you more knowledgeable.

The original question was which direction would a new version of the Hemi go. My suggestion was that it might go in the direction of the 6.2, as the rocker arm arrangement of that engine very closely resembled the rocker arm arrangement of a Hemi or, for that matter a Toyota 20R.

The reason I was familiar with this is my recent trip in a new pickup that had the 6.2, which was quite impressive to my 318-powered self. And I figured out that the engine was OHC from inside the cab, from the sounds it was or wasn't making.

End of rebuttal.

R.

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#2432845 - 01/11/18 12:53 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: EagleDuster]
Supercuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 13835
Loc: up yours
Originally Posted By EagleDuster
5500 RPM redline in the Ford 6.2L and it's SOHC? What's the point? That's the same as a 5.7 Hemi with those 'antiquated' pushrods...


How about you take off your socks and count up the number of moving parts in a SOHC vs a pushrod V8 valve train.

Then ponder the inertial mass involved in each and recall that a lighter valve train can be opened and closed quicker allowing more area under the curve.

Then think about that pushrod pinch in the LA intake track and it's complete lack in a SOHC design.

Want to keep playing?
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#2432848 - 01/11/18 01:06 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
sp392 Offline
master

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 8992
Loc: Etobicoke
The 392 is getting a revision before 2021, supposedly for 2019. I wonder if it'll finally crack the 500 mark. It would also be cool if they made it the highest output NA V8 but I believe the flat plane Ford holds that right now @ 526.

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#2432851 - 01/11/18 01:11 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9871
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
how bout the 400ft of timing chains that inevitably stretch over time and are expensive and complicated to replace (think 4.7 dodge, 5.4 ferds, 427SOHC ferds, 5.7 tundras...) there is a whole plethora of engines plauged by that insanely long chain requirement. And as a bonus the extra valves and everything still don't help the head flow anymore than an apache/hellcat/BGE head.
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#2433095 - 01/11/18 07:51 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
Supercuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 13835
Loc: up yours
400ft of timing chain, get real. If it's all that complicated and intimidating then retire.
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They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.

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#2433141 - 01/11/18 09:14 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9871
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
I do em for a living and see the look in peoples eyes when you tell em how much its gonna cost to fix that garbage without even having high miles on em. They cost twice as much and don't last near as long with no benefit, especially in a truck engine. Sorry but its just a cool novelty that ain't worth the cost in a production type engine.
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#2433240 - 01/12/18 03:27 AM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: dogdays]
EagleDuster Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Northern Colorado
Originally Posted By dogdays
I knew that my comments would not go un-carped upon. Did I use the word "antiquated" anywhere?

I don't give a poop about cam phaser problems, I am not buying a ford pickup. Obviously if one wanted to build a hotrod version of the engine the redline would be higher. So what? So pushrods work to 11,000rpm. So what?

You guys fire off comments without doing the research. That's your right, but it doesn't make you more knowledgeable.

The original question was which direction would a new version of the Hemi go. My suggestion was that it might go in the direction of the 6.2, as the rocker arm arrangement of that engine very closely resembled the rocker arm arrangement of a Hemi or, for that matter a Toyota 20R.

The reason I was familiar with this is my recent trip in a new pickup that had the 6.2, which was quite impressive to my 318-powered self. And I figured out that the engine was OHC from inside the cab, from the sounds it was or wasn't making.

End of rebuttal.

R.


Sorry I wasn't actually trying to argue with you though I guess it did sound that way, my comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular and I do get your point. I'm simply saying if Ford went through all the development to make a SOHC truck engine why does it only rev to 5500 RPM? And have basically the same output as an engine half a liter smaller in displacement (5.7 Hemi)? It's like the modular engines, with all the advanced technology they had they should have been on another level vs. GM and Chrysler but were basically mediocre throughout their entire run. They had all the problems of modern engine technology with no real advantages over the competition. I don't think the 6.2 is a "bad" engine I'm just disappointed it can't do more (and yes I know Ford has the special high-output version as an option on the Raptor).

Pushrod arrangement does create a lot of extra heat at high RPMs and has more friction but it keeps big-displacement engines more compact and lighter. I just feel like with pushrod engines like the Hemi and LS being as good as they are, any future V8 from Chrysler or GM that does have OHC better take full advantage of it and really raise the bar. Or at least just Chrysler lol


Edited by EagleDuster (01/12/18 03:34 AM)
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1970 Plymouth Duster, 1993 Jeep Cherokee 4x4

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#2433241 - 01/12/18 03:33 AM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: HotRodDave]
EagleDuster Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Northern Colorado
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
I do em for a living and see the look in peoples eyes when you tell em how much its gonna cost to fix that garbage without even having high miles on em. They cost twice as much and don't last near as long with no benefit, especially in a truck engine. Sorry but its just a cool novelty that ain't worth the cost in a production type engine.


That's how I see it, using technology so on paper you're keeping up with the industry but in practical use there is no real benefit. And apparently a few fatal drawbacks.
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1970 Plymouth Duster, 1993 Jeep Cherokee 4x4

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#2433386 - 01/12/18 11:21 AM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
ghinmi Offline
member

Registered: 12/06/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Michigan
No mention of the big displacement pushrod v8 that Ford's developing for trucks?
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#2433464 - 01/12/18 01:08 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: ghinmi]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4095
Loc: Canada
I think you're talking about the 7L? Pretty sure it's going to be a DOHC engine, supposed to be around the 500 hp mark.


Edited by WO23Coronet (01/12/18 01:14 PM)

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#2433542 - 01/12/18 03:50 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
ghinmi Offline
member

Registered: 12/06/15
Posts: 64
Loc: Michigan
The pictures I've seen are of a pushrod motor.
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#2433569 - 01/12/18 04:50 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4095
Loc: Canada
Can you post some pics? Kind of intrigued on the specs of this new motor. Mated to their 10 speed it should be a hit.

Got the DOHC from this article:

http://speedtwitch.com/report-2019-f-150-raptor-to-receive-fords-new-7-0l-dohc-v8-motor/

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#2434102 - 01/13/18 06:08 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
parksr5 Offline
mopar

Registered: 03/07/09
Posts: 594
Loc: Oh
I own some modular Fords; they're nice and scream up top but, the lower end grunt of a pushrod motor just can't be beat. Although some of my modular Fords are faster than some of the pushrod motor cars that I've owned and own currently, they're just not as much fun in stop light to stop light situations which is what is more frequently experience when driving cars on the street.

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#2434353 - 01/14/18 09:25 AM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: parksr5]
EagleDuster Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/17
Posts: 24
Loc: Northern Colorado
Originally Posted By parksr5
I own some modular Fords; they're nice and scream up top but, the lower end grunt of a pushrod motor just can't be beat. Although some of my modular Fords are faster than some of the pushrod motor cars that I've owned and own currently, they're just not as much fun in stop light to stop light situations which is what is more frequently experience when driving cars on the street.


It's interesting the old pushrod 5.0 had more grunt than the 4.6 even though the stroke was literally a half-inch shorter. I'd imagine the modulars are better suited to road course stuff vs. drag racing...?
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1970 Plymouth Duster, 1993 Jeep Cherokee 4x4

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#2434628 - 01/14/18 06:44 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
savoy64 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1832
Loc: colorado
5500 rpm is plenty for a truck engine----if you need 7500 rpm for your truck well i dont know what to say.....

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#2435043 - 01/15/18 12:57 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: EagleDuster]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9871
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Originally Posted By EagleDuster
Originally Posted By parksr5
I own some modular Fords; they're nice and scream up top but, the lower end grunt of a pushrod motor just can't be beat. Although some of my modular Fords are faster than some of the pushrod motor cars that I've owned and own currently, they're just not as much fun in stop light to stop light situations which is what is more frequently experience when driving cars on the street.


It's interesting the old pushrod 5.0 had more grunt than the 4.6 even though the stroke was literally a half-inch shorter. I'd imagine the modulars are better suited to road course stuff vs. drag racing...?


Stroke has almost nothing to do with TQ, it is a lot more closely tied to displacement.
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#2436920 - 01/18/18 01:29 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: HotRodDave]
dogdays Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16231
Thank you Dave, for restating that oft-forgotten fact.

Other thoughts: Ford's Modular engine represents a bad bet on the future of IC engines. They thought they'd be getting much smaller. By using a bore spacing of 100mm, they effectively limited bore size to 3.66 inches. As a result, the 5.4 and 5.8 Modular motors have a stroke of 4.165 inches, longer than a 454 chevy or 472 caddy. The 302 was never known as a torque engine, and the 4.6 is even smaller. It's a gutless wonder like the chevy 4.8 LS motor.

Also, the point about DOHC engines taking up space is valid. I remember the first time I saw a 5.4 ford crate engine...Doggone, that thing is huge!

R.


Edited by dogdays (01/18/18 01:32 PM)

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#2436961 - 01/18/18 02:44 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: dogdays]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4095
Loc: Canada
The 6.2 Ford has a bore spacing of 4.53” (115mm) so they have room to grow. I wonder if the new 7L is based on this or is it a new engine?

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#2437063 - 01/18/18 05:33 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: WO23Coronet]
MattW Offline
master

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2646
Loc: Ontario Canada
One thing not mentioned is the price to produce.
IMO the hemi will probably get replaced with a V6 trurbo and the V8 will only be offered in the 2500 and up series.
The Fords are more expensive to produce.
Matt

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#2437145 - 01/18/18 07:31 PM Re: Future of Gen III [Re: MattW]
sp392 Offline
master

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 8992
Loc: Etobicoke
Originally Posted By MattW
One thing not mentioned is the price to produce.
IMO the hemi will probably get replaced with a V6 trurbo and the V8 will only be offered in the 2500 and up series.
The Fords are more expensive to produce.
Matt


*Was going to be replaced. Those silly 55mpg fleet average rules by 2025 are getting rolled back. It'll be made official in March, and for good reason. FCA didn't have a hope in he11 to meet them by selling Jeeps, Rams and muscle.

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