Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
#2425458
12/29/17 06:49 PM
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fast68plymouth
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I'm looking for some pics of BB Isky Red Zone lifters with the EZ roll option..... Specifically the oil feed holes for the bushings.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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12/30/17 01:15 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Thanks for the pics.
For some reason I thought they had pressure fed oiling to the axles, but apparently it's just splash oiling.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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12/30/17 01:39 PM
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fast68plymouth
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I have a customer who I recently got some Red Zones for.
Apparently hey have changed the body design. They no longer have an oil band, but rather two relief cuts, one on the front, one on the rear...... Which do not intersect the oil gallery...... And he says there are no oil holes in the relief cuts(and even if there were, since the reliefs aren't connected to the gallery, I don't know how much good they would do). The only oil holes are located directly above the axles.
Sean, if you could post or send a pic of some with the pressure feed holes, that would be great.
The ones my customer has look like this:
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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fast68plymouth
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Okay great..... Thanks.
Do those only have that feed hole from the band, or is there also a hole above the axle?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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Okay great..... Thanks.
Do those only have that feed hole from the band, or is there also a hole above the axle? ONLY in the band, NOT perpendicular above the wheel.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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fast68plymouth
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It's really early in the discovery process at this point, but my customer has had an issue with his cam/lifter situation. It may end up being like the "chicken and the egg"..... As to which was the cause of the problem.......but I was pretty surprised to learn his lifters didn't have any way to pressure feed the bushings.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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It's really early in the discovery process at this point, but my customer has had an issue with his cam/lifter situation. It may end up being like the "chicken and the egg"..... As to which was the cause of the problem.......but I was pretty surprised to learn his lifters didn't have any way to pressure feed the bushings. But they DO...the hole above the axle is hydraulically feed via the wall clearance between the body and the bore. If it makes the builder feel any more confident you could groove a channel on the bore connecting the two feed holes.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: HardcoreB]
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It's really early in the discovery process at this point, but my customer has had an issue with his cam/lifter situation. It may end up being like the "chicken and the egg"..... As to which was the cause of the problem.......but I was pretty surprised to learn his lifters didn't have any way to pressure feed the bushings. But they DO...the hole above the axle is hydraulically feed via the wall clearance between the body and the bore. If it makes the builder feel any more confident you could groove a channel on the bore connecting the two feed holes. Doug is having luck using the lifter in the same way, with no groove AND the orifice actually drops below the feeding bore while on base circle. I would feel better with a small groove personally. and if you had to bush the block a longer bushing fully enclosing the lifter feed area would help too maintain constant feed pressure. IMO!!! lol
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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fast68plymouth
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On my customers motor, the oil hole above the axle is only in the bore for about the last .125 of lift. It's pretty far removed from the "source" of the oil, and rotated 90deg from it.
The hole is exposed to the crankcase most of the time.
This really doesn't seem to be a very effective way of oiling the bushing....... And maybe they don't need much oil. But we have a problem with this motor, and it's going to require a little more investigation to see if we can get to the cause of the problem.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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On my customers motor, the oil hole above the axle is only in the bore for about the last .125 of lift. .....
The hole is exposed to the crankcase most of the time.
This really doesn't seem to be a very effective way of oiling the bushing....... And maybe they don't need much oil. YES THEY DO I feel strongly that is the problem...you wont see an engine clamshell bearing live under these compromised feed conditions and they are subject to much less 'localized' loading.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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12/30/17 03:26 PM
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fast68plymouth
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That's my position as well, but the Isky literature has claims about how "oil restrictor" friendly the bushings are, and the super hard material, etc....... So I'm leaving the door open for another explanation.
I feel the bushings in this motor failed because of a lack of adequate lubrication. That's what I'm going with unless I hear a good argument to the contrary.
The cam will go back to Comp, the lifters back to Isky...... See what that they come up with.
This is far from any type of "extreme" application either....... .430 lobe lift, 1.5 rockers, 600lbs open pressure.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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fast68plymouth
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Well........these didn't last long at all. All 16 are toast in about 200 street miles...... With no WOT blasts yet.
Obviously, the bodies like the ones we're dealing with aren't a retrofitted BBC body, as the lack of oil band i think would block/severely restrict the oil flow in a BBC block.
I don't know why they dont all get the oiling like the ones in the pic of your actual BBC set. That really seems like the best solution to me.
A final decision won't be made until after we hear what Isky has to say, but at this point I'd say it's very unlikely bushed lifters with this oiling set-up will end up back in the motor.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2425943
12/30/17 05:26 PM
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I am leaning toward this Crower.. It shows to have high pressure oiling from the band down.
Last edited by galen; 12/30/17 05:27 PM.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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Interestingly, Crower insists on the HIPPO oiling for their bushed lifters: We can convert any Crower roller with .317" or .363" axle, to EnduraMax Needleless Bearings. EnduraMax rollers must be equipped with HIPPO oiling. HIPPO oiling can be added to most Crower roller lifters when being converted to EnduraMax bearing.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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I'm looking for some pics of BB Isky Red Zone lifters with the EZ roll option..... Specifically the oil feed holes for the bushings. I just got this two weeks ago. Maybe marketing and engineering aren't in sync?
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2425978
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Or break the bank and put Jesel rollers in. Very nice roller but have a crazy price tag attached.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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12/31/17 02:01 PM
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Like I said, we’ll be looking to hear what Isky has to say, but the fact is at this point that after 200 miles we have 16 lifters where the bushings are worn out.
The whole motor has been torn down to make sure any metal that may have been pumped through motor didn’t do any unseen damage.
Everything else was good.
The only issues were that the bushings and wheels on the lifters are shot, and the cam is scored up.........like what you’d expect to see if the wheels on the lifters were skidding instead of rolling.
Hopefully between Comp looking the cam over, and Isky looking the lifters over we can get a more definitive answer as to why this happened.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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If he's running with pushrod oiling, it would have to be the "Chevy" style body.
The 3472-RH EZX's my customer has have no provision to oil the pushrod.
IMO, the bottom line is....... Is splash oiling going to sufficiently lube the bushings or not...... Because that's how the ones my customer has get oil in his OE 440 block.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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Those are raised pushrod seat, pushrod oiling, .180 offset.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: Jeremiah]
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Also, my cam is a 1.050 base circle. Doug, do you happen to have the base circle of your cam handy? Could that have something to do with it as well?
FWIW I have had no oil pressure but that was only 20ish dyno pulls.
I don't remember the base circle but the cam lobes are Comp RX1718 Intake XCX1866 Exhaust. Doug
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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All else being equal, more lobe lift = smaller base circle.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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3372-RHEZX with thousands of miles on them. Just sent em back and they said they were ok and didn't need to be rebuilt. 400 seat and 950 open.
They are made for pushrod oiling though..
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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I've sold a few sets of these over the years, never an issue before. I felt these were really the go-to lifter for this application, street/strip 505 with about .650 lift, which is why I recommended them in the first place.
Efidart, do you know if yours have the oil feeds to the bushings like the ones in the pics from HardcoreB?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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If he's running with pushrod oiling, it would have to be the "Chevy" style body.
The 3472-RH EZX's my customer has have no provision to oil the pushrod.
IMO, the bottom line is....... Is splash oiling going to sufficiently lube the bushings or not...... Because that's how the ones my customer has get oil in his OE 440 block. I don't think you can oil a bushing from splash. We all know a needle bearing needs much less oil than a bushing does. Personally, I wanted bushing type rollers as far back as 1984 when I lost my first roller lifter. All the engineers I knew said you needed pressure fed oiling to do it. Then years later they came out with bushing lifters.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: AndyF]
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I've had this same issue with just about every mfg of lifters. What they say the lifters are like and what they actually ship are sometimes two different things. The catalog will say pushrod oiling and bushing oiling but when you get them you can see that they don't work that way.
This is exactly what happened to me with brothers Iskenderian. Told them I wanted pressurized axle oiling, and sold me the 3472 RH w/o pressurized oiling. Called them back and he said that he would add the pressurized oiling, for a price. They have so many lifter body options, I don't think they actually know themselves. Went with them as delivered. Several thousand miles, no issue. Mine has the needles, and I have mild lobes and lollipop springs. 15 psi at idle in gear. FWIW
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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I think the "Red Zone" lifter came out around 2004.They were advertised as having pressurized oil to the needles.So I ordered a cam,lifters and springs for my HEMI after having a failure of the Comp 829 lifters.They sent the cam and springs and told me the lifters were to follow.We installed and degreed the cam and installed the springs.When the lifters came,there was an oil band in the body of the lifter,,,,but no orifice to allow pressurized oil into the lifter.I called Isky and got one of the 5 techs that I spoke with during the ordering process.I had repeatedly told them I was buying the Red Zones for that feature.That's when I was told the BBM lifters did NOT have that feature. Well I made a stink and ended up with "Rich" that supposedly owned Isky.He offered to rebuild my NEW lifters and drill the body so I would have the option the lifters were supposed to have and would only charge me $125!! I informed him that they were advertised to have that option and should NOT be charged.He came back with,,,,we make those lifters for Jim Oddy and Jim said they weren't needed.I told him I'm not Jim with 5 engines as spares.He then told me to sent his s%$t back.If I had not installed the springs & cam I would have sent everything back. Out of curiosity I dropped the lifters in and the link bar attaching the pairs hit the lifter boss on my mega block. I sent the lifters back and bought Comp 848s that were an AMC application.They are on their 3rd rebuild.Because of the treatment from Isky I will NEVER buy their product again! Because of their PR oiling capability I sent oil up the exhaust PR for a little extra oil on the exhaust springs.I also installed a set on my friends wedge,we both lost 15 lbs of OP.So I installed restrickers in the PRs and the 15 lbs came back.I have no clue how they make then now,but id does not matter.NO isky products for me.Comp has been good to me.
Last edited by hemi-itis; 01/03/18 02:50 AM.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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Sean, I am in DC so no pictures available. I have two sets of Iskys and one set of Crower bushed lifters and also use Jesel stuff in the Predator. Pretty sure all my iskys I have used look like the ones you have posted. Definitely never seen one like Dwayne has posted and 100% sure on that. And the Crowers look similar to the iskys you posted. They are ALL pushrod oil, I also have them in my 68 Camaro street car and they have been in there for years with no issues. Wish I could participate more but without seeing them in hand cant tell you..
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: Forest]
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I have a set that are my spares now...would you like me to take some pics? Yes please, if you could also comment on your success and application that may help the thread.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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Several thousand miles, no issue. Mine has the needles, and I have mild lobes and lollipop springs. 15 psi at idle in gear. Russ, when you said yours had the same body design as this set I'm working with I wondered if they had bushings or bearings. Obviously the splash oiling is sufficient with the bearings....... That's what everything had for years........and I'm pretty sure if we would have gone with bearings in this set there wouldn't have been any issues. The lifters are enroute to Isky, cam to Comp...... We'll see what the verdict is.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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Several thousand miles, no issue. Mine has the needles, and I have mild lobes and lollipop springs. 15 psi at idle in gear. Russ, when you said yours had the same body design as this set I'm working with I wondered if they had bushings or bearings. Obviously the splash oiling is sufficient with the bearings....... That's what everything had for years........and I'm pretty sure if we would have gone with bearings in this set there wouldn't have been any issues. The lifters are enroute to Isky, cam to Comp...... We'll see what the verdict is. Not Russ here but, in the sets I have here, I do have BOTH styles of bodies with BOTH bushing and roller...it maybe be one possibity... by design the one style that is 'supposed' to be for bearing BUT gets 'upgraded' to a bushing during rebuild etc...some time after it initially leaves Isky initially.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
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There was no rebuilding of the set we have that failed. They were bought new a couple months ago as 3472-RH EZX.
My personal "opinion" at this point is, the configuration for oiling on the lifters we have is not sufficient for the bushings.
Now, if there were several people who were running these same style lifters we have, also bushed, that also have the feed holes not being pressure fed most of the time........ And not having any issues with them, that would be a step towards me changing my opinion.
I'm really not looking to point any fingers at either Isky or Comp. I'm just trying find the cause of the problem so we can avoid it happening again.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2428327
01/03/18 03:35 PM
01/03/18 03:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Judging by the witness marks on the lifter body, it appears that the lifter is way up in the bore at full lift. Any feed holes in the oil band going to the axles?
Did you happen to notice if the oil feed hole above the axle is exposed when the lifter is on the base circle?
Since those lifters have an actual oil band, the pressurized oil supply is quite a bit closer to that axle feed hole.
Looks like that part number puts the pushrod oiling holes where they should be for a Mopar...... Parallel to the axle.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2428342
01/03/18 03:49 PM
01/03/18 03:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 916 SE Washington
Forest
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 916
SE Washington
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Judging by the witness marks on the lifter body, it appears that the lifter is way up in the bore at full lift. Any feed holes in the oil band going to the axles?
Did you happen to notice if the oil feed hole above the axle is exposed when the lifter is on the base circle?
Since those lifters have an actual oil band, the pressurized oil supply is quite a bit closer to that axle feed hole.
Looks like that part number puts the pushrod oiling holes where they should be for a Mopar...... Parallel to the axle. I'll get back to you this evening with more pics and do my best to answer your questions...
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2428519
01/03/18 09:54 PM
01/03/18 09:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309 Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
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Several thousand miles, no issue. Mine has the needles, and I have mild lobes and lollipop springs. 15 psi at idle in gear. Russ, when you said yours had the same body design as this set I'm working with I wondered if they had bushings or bearings. Obviously the splash oiling is sufficient with the bearings....... Sure. I have been watching this post from the beginning and did not post initially because mine have the bearings. When no one seemed to describe the lifter body that you put up, I thought I'd mention having the same body. Must had a bad day as Andy's post spurred me to tell my whiny Isky story. Thought I'd finish with at least some info, albeit not on point. I personally think it is reasonable to believe you have a lifter design issue there, and was not suggesting otherwise.
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Re: Anyone have a BB Isky Red Zone lifter not in the motor?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2550294
09/15/18 01:26 PM
09/15/18 01:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Here is an update on what happened with the lifters from the start of this thread.
We never really got an answer as to why the bushings failed so quickly. But, they did replace them with a different version that does have an oil band and edm feed hole from the band to the axles. They also have the upgraded “speedway” bushings.
I had the customer prime the motor with the valley cover open, and he verified oil would ooze out around the wheels with the system under pressure.
No problems with these so far.
I sent back the cam and had it checked for hardness, it was fine, so I had them regrind it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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