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440 Bench Build #2417487
12/12/17 06:26 PM
12/12/17 06:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
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dfsmopars Offline OP
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I have grown bored with the 360 I built for my '72 Charger. IT has been a great engine but I am ready for more attitude in the car.
I am ready to pull out a '74 model 440 I have had stored away for many years and build it for the Charger. The goal would be at 500 hp/torque at the flywheel. Where is the best resource for determining the parts needed for the application?


‘72 Charger, 5.9 Magnum, Tremec 5 spd., Pro-Touring
‘14 Big Horn, Quad Cab, 4x4, 1500
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417491
12/12/17 06:34 PM
12/12/17 06:34 PM

C
crabman173
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crabman173
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Easy way is call one of the many builders here Todd at Marsh Perf will put you dead on his Sidewinder heads are better than others in that price range and all you need--he can also put you on the rest of the combo--500HP is THE MAGIC number that 90% of all engine customers request for some reason 100 different ways to get there but with those heads and correct cheap flat tappet cam and then add in a set of the new Wiseco Street Protru pistons ( less than $425 with rings --lite and forged and awesome for a street build) add some PRW stainless rockers for cheap reliable performance in that category--pick your intake--I love the Performer RPM but it can be a pain with drop base thin air cleaner needed so the Holley Street Dominator still available new is low and makes killer street intake cheapo headers any 750 carb you can locate and Bam! ya gots 500 HP that will melt tires and be tons of fun

Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417523
12/12/17 07:14 PM
12/12/17 07:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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dogdays Offline
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Choices:
4+ inch stroked 360
440
511 stroked 440

Any of the above will do 500 hp easily using modern parts.

Stock Mopar engines of that era were hampered by three design deficiencies: 1. Cylinder head flow 2. Compression 3. Huge (heavy) reciprocating parts

So for any Mopar engine of the ages in question, plan to replace cylinder heads with your choice modern aluminum head, work with us to get the compression right, and also in choices of rotating and reciprocating parts.

A good place to start looking are the online vendors, starting with
www.440Source.com
Campbell Enterprises.com
Mancini Racing.com
Todd Marsh of Marsh Performance

If you look into the Moparts sponsor lists you will find many good guys who live in the Mopar world. There are many tricks and traps to building a Mopar engine from the ground up.

If you stick around here long enough you will begin to understand that there are board members who think a car is driveable if it idles at 1800rpm and gets 4.8 miles per gallon of race gas. SO, take cam recommendations with a grain of salt.
There are a thousand ways to do ignition but there is no need to spend a zillion dollars unless it satisfies one of your urges.

Sometimes you will ask a question and there will be a tornado of contradictory opinions. Don't be afraid to send a PM or two to get rid of the chatter.

Don't start buying things before you know which way you're going.

Don't jump at a particularly great deal on a particular part and then have to stand on your head to build the rest of the engine around it.

Realize that by increasing the engine power in your car by 150 lb-ft of torque or 125hp that you will need to redo many of the systems such as drivetrain, brakes, chassis, etc.

Finally, DO MAKE A BUDGET and be truthful about how much you are willing to spend.

R.

PS: I speak from experience on these warnings. My first cam swap resulted in the engine power increasing enough that it overpowered the suspension and I wrecked the car.
I have a mountain of really excellent parts that won't fit my current needs, but they were a great deal at the time.
I have another mountain of parts that have become obsolete before they were ever used. This represents literally thousands of dollars that have been spent with no chance of getting them back, or putting the investment to use.
So if I can help you avoid those pitfalls, it would make me feel better about my own mess-ups.




Last edited by dogdays; 12/12/17 07:17 PM.
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dogdays] #2417534
12/12/17 07:32 PM
12/12/17 07:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,145
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
pittsburghracer  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,145
PA.
If my car was already set up for a small block, and I already had a 360 engine, and I only wanted 500 horsepower i sure as heck wouldn’t switch to a big block. But to each his or her own


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417539
12/12/17 07:39 PM
12/12/17 07:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
Northport, al.
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tvt59 Offline
enthusiast
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Northport, al.
A 360 with a 4.125 stroke, Just an ok Al. head. and a hyd. roller will make the power you want easley .

Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417550
12/12/17 08:19 PM
12/12/17 08:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
Too Many Posts
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
If your not going to stroke it then you can build your basic mild 440 street bruiser as I did with my old combo.
It was basically a stock crank and rod bottom end that I had the crank checked and the rods reconned with new ARP bolts. I use KB quench pad pistons to get quench with my 906 heads and 10.0 pump gas friendly comp. Then I ran Isky ductile adjustable rockers and the MP .557 solid flat tappet cam. Ran the Holley Street Dominator intake and my 850 DP. Basic Mopar electronic ign and Hedman 1-3/4 headers. The 906 heads I milled for 10.0 comp and ported them myself with new bigger valves. A very simple basic combo that is almost a stock 440 shortblock with home ported iron heads and a nice solid cam with bolt on's. In my 3725 lb 63 it ran a best of 11.49 @ 116 driven to the track and on pump through the exh. It was a nice running mild street driver that was good for 11.50's to 11.80 depending on the weather. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 12/12/17 08:21 PM.
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417649
12/12/17 11:01 PM
12/12/17 11:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
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dfsmopars Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Kentucky
Honestly I like posting in this section of Moparts the most because of the experience, knowledge and honesty of the replies. The unfortunate part for me is I have not needed to come in here since building the ‘95 5.9 about six years ago. Back then this section was a very instrumental in helping me on my first solo build. I used Hughes Engines for all the parts and technical guidance and the engine turned out just as I wanted. The current 5.9 is a full roller motor with iron Indy X heads. It winds up quick and made 275 hp/316 lb ft at the rear wheels with a 625 Carter (since replaced with a Quick Fuel). With a full interior, 44RE trans, stock suspension and with 3.55 gears it turned its best time at the Nats two years ago of 13.92 @ 97 mph. It ran out of air at the top end.
Recently I had Hughes quote a stroker kit and heads for the 5.9 but as said by dogdays I need to make sure that it would satisfy. I also had Brewers quote a four speed four it for added fun.
I’ve had a strong 383 and a stock 413 but never raw 440 torque.


‘72 Charger, 5.9 Magnum, Tremec 5 spd., Pro-Touring
‘14 Big Horn, Quad Cab, 4x4, 1500
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417815
12/13/17 08:54 AM
12/13/17 08:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
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dfsmopars Offline OP
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OK let me ask this- a 5.9 Magnum stroked to 408 and produces 450 hp/475 lb ft compared to a basic 440 build at the same performance output what will be the difference in sound, feel and enjoyment?
I also assume it would cost less to build a BB to reach the same numbers as a small block?


‘72 Charger, 5.9 Magnum, Tremec 5 spd., Pro-Touring
‘14 Big Horn, Quad Cab, 4x4, 1500
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417816
12/13/17 09:17 AM
12/13/17 09:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,141
junction city oregon
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viperblue72 Offline
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junction city oregon
With the parts that you have a stroked small block would be easier and very likely much cheaper. At 500hp a cast stroker kit is just fine. More head porting and a bigger cam. Those small block strokers run hard.
I’ve had a 360/408 that was really mild that ran 11.00s in a all steel duster, and now have a 511 that’s much more radical in a valiant.
The 408 impressed me for what it was.

Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417916
12/13/17 01:47 PM
12/13/17 01:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404
Michigan
MarkZ Offline
Worthy
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Michigan
So many variables...

It sounds like you're building a street car. I would be more concerned about the torque curve than peak numbers. The more low end torque you have on tap, the more friendly a gear ratio you can run for street manners without negatively impacting the fun factor.

Your car has a relatively low curb weight, so a 408 would probably work just fine. Do you have overdrive transmission? A 450HP / 500ft/lbs 408 with a 3.91 gear is a hoot. My dad has that setup in his Diplomat coupe with a 518 transmission. It'll put the car sideways from a 40 MPH role with 275 tires on the back. There is a lot left in the motor too - heads are untouched Eddies.


1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2417924
12/13/17 02:00 PM
12/13/17 02:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
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Missouri
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jwb123 Offline
super stock
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Missouri
From your post, you are interested in engines, get a good engine program. I like performance trends, engine analyzer. If you put good numbers into the program its very accurate. Also the manual will teach you a bunch about the science of how an engine operates. It allows you to input flow bench data, will calculate compression ratios, estimates idle vacuum, advance curves, and a bunch more stuff. Then you can spend hours building virtual engines to get to your goal. Its saved me a bunch of money over the years.

Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: MarkZ] #2417934
12/13/17 02:13 PM
12/13/17 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
I have a car with a 416 in it..was a solid roller
and I took that out to run a FT cam.. it has all
the torque that I want.. also I run a 518 OD trans
and elec dumps for the track.. with 4.10 gears
in OD and 295 tires I can cruise at 75mph at 2900
rpms.. it will get side ways in a blink if I roll
into it .. before I swapped cams it was 595HP on
the dyno.. now with fuel injection it drives great
EDIT
it did make 525 torque before the cam awap
wave

IMG_0026.JPG
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 12/13/17 02:16 PM.
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2418026
12/13/17 04:43 PM
12/13/17 04:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Bend,OR USA
to make 500 HP with right at 500 FT Lbs. with a stock stroke 440 on pump gas may be harder to keep the torque even with the HP, normally the stock stroke motors with less than 10.5 to 1 compression all made 20 to 50 ft. lbs. more torque than HP shruggy
The parts you need to make 500+ HP and torque are a decent set of aluminum heads and a good set of adjustable rockers, pistons that will make between 10.to 1 and 10.5 to 1 compression, a 850 CFM or larger carb., a Eddy Performer RPM intake and a decent cam with between 235 to 250 degrees @ .050 duration and as much lift as you can get at the valves and a decent set of headers and a minimum of 2.5 exhaust system on the car with a good set of Hi Po muffs twocents
That formula works good on midly ported Mopar iron heads with 2.14 and 1.81 valves with under 9.5 to 1 compression ratio so with the better aluminum heads like the Eddy RPM and the increase in compression you should be nearer 550 HP than 500 HP up
Let us know what you decide to do, a good SB stroker will work well also so compare the costs and effort needed before deciding twocents


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2418033
12/13/17 04:53 PM
12/13/17 04:53 PM
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Posts: 888
Oh
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parksr5 Offline
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If your anything like me, you’ll quickly get bored with the new power too. Just something to think about before deciding to stroke the small block.

If you truly think that 500 is the magic number and it will stop there, I agree with the others that stroking and tweaking what you have would be more cost effective.

But, if there is any doubt that you’ll want more in the future, I’d go with the big block now. In my opinion, it would be a lot easier to make the jump to 600hp/torque with a big block if you get tired of the 500 that you’re shooting for.

My engine made 425 HP and 525 torque which took me all of 1500 miles to get used to at which point, I started playing around with it and recently did a head swap. My short block would probably get me to the 650hp range; that’s a big buffer if I continue to get bored.

As many have said before, it’s all about what you want; you need to truly consider that first before making any decisions. Be honest with yourself too; it will save you money in the long run.

I mention this because with gear heads, I don’t often see people stop; it’s never enough. Spend good money once if possible.

Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2418412
12/14/17 12:19 PM
12/14/17 12:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
D
dfsmopars Offline OP
top fuel
dfsmopars  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,356
Kentucky
I keep thinking that improving the 5.9 is the way to go. Block and heads are proven. Don't have to swap out the k-member and suspension.
I got a quote from Hughes Engines a couple of months ago for the stroker kit (425 hp/475 torque) when I started thinking about it. As a way of a competitive quote and second source for the entire SB stroker kit who would be a recommended vendor?


‘72 Charger, 5.9 Magnum, Tremec 5 spd., Pro-Touring
‘14 Big Horn, Quad Cab, 4x4, 1500
Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: dfsmopars] #2418431
12/14/17 12:50 PM
12/14/17 12:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
I think the 5.9 might be the way to go.. you
can get them fairly cheap for a complete engine
but you might want to get a hold of some of the
builders on this site to see what they can do
for you
wave

Re: 440 Bench Build [Re: ] #2418442
12/14/17 01:16 PM
12/14/17 01:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines Offline
master
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Syracuse,NY
Originally Posted By crabman173
Easy way is call one of the many builders here Todd at Marsh Perf will put you dead on his Sidewinder heads are better than others in that price range and all you need--he can also put you on the rest of the combo--500HP is THE MAGIC number that 90% of all engine customers request for some reason 100 different ways to get there but with those heads and correct cheap flat tappet cam and then add in a set of the new Wiseco Street Protru pistons ( less than $425 with rings --lite and forged and awesome for a street build) add some PRW stainless rockers for cheap reliable performance in that category--pick your intake--I love the Performer RPM but it can be a pain with drop base thin air cleaner needed so the Holley Street Dominator still available new is low and makes killer street intake cheapo headers any 750 carb you can locate and Bam! ya gots 500 HP that will melt tires and be tons of fun


Thats by far the easiest and most simple way to do it....100% spot on, unless he is going to keep the small block, which is almost the same recipe there too, other than the intake.

Last edited by CompWedgeEngines; 12/14/17 01:17 PM.

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WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.






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