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Re: 440 source balance job [Re: ] #2417522
12/12/17 07:14 PM
12/12/17 07:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,284
okla.
sam64 Offline
pro stock
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okla.
Unless you are balancing it your self you are just taking someones word that they did it usally after holding it hostage.I have used 5 440 source kits with their balance jobs with no issues and they tell me when I will have it before I hang up the phone.

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: sam64] #2417542
12/12/17 07:46 PM
12/12/17 07:46 PM
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dogdays Offline
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IMHO:
There are a lot of very good answers here. Let us go back to basics. Of the Big Three, Chrysler balance jobs were by far the worst. That wasn't by accident. Chrysler engineers put a lot of thought into the difference between good and good enough. They knew how far out things could be without getting complaints from the consumer. They were, of course, building cars to sell. They were not building exotic pieces of engineering art or future collectibles. Never once in my childhood did I hear Mopar engines described as rough running.

Now stop and think of the hundreds of millions of engines rebuilt with "stock replacement" parts. Do you think they got balanced? Not on your life. Yet we don't hear about rough running rebuilt shortblocks.

So what if one rod throw is tapered and needs to be taken down 0.010"? Change in weight would be 19.4 grams, minus the extra weight of the thicker bearing shells. It would indeed be inconsequential. If all the rod throws were reground it'd be even less of a change.

Any tiny amount of metal that might need to be removed for fitting is well within modern tolerances, and the factory tolerances are much larger. Modern balance jobs are probably to 1/10 the tolerance of the factory balance job.

If I bought a 440Source rotating kit I'd pay to have it balanced. If my engine assembler wanted to do it again it'd have to be on his nickel.

Finally, we act as if the formula for balancing the rotating/reciprocating assembly of a V8 was handed down by God Almighty. It wasn't. There is no mathematical derivation from which the formula was developed. The formula is based on empirical data. If it was based on analysis, such things as overbalancing or underbalancing the engine would not exist.

Best Regards,
R.

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2417555
12/12/17 08:30 PM
12/12/17 08:30 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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If a shop insists on doing the job, 9 times out of 10 its because they want the $$.

The engine shop I use do everything except grind and polish cranks and balance assemblies so while they do have shops they prefer to use for this work they have no issue using balanced assemblies customers supply.

Since setting rod clearances involves some material removal, its very likely that there isn't a single perfectly balanced engine out there other than perhaps a Nascar motor or similar. Achieving perfection is something most people couldn't afford and certainly don't need. For 99.99% of the motors out there, close is good enough. And as my builder explained it to me, modern manufacturing methods ensure parts are "very" close in weight. Additional quality control checks to ensure sets are within a given tolerance. The bottom line ... you could take the heaviest rod/piston assembly versus the lightest and they'd still be close enough not to be a concern.

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: Stanton] #2417595
12/12/17 09:31 PM
12/12/17 09:31 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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All the better balancing shops in SO CA all claimed that they balanced all the rotating parts within + or- 1 gram shruggy
I ended up buying a Haus (SP?) brand triple beam gram scale and I mock up the rods to try and get them suspended half way up the lengths of the rods to check end weights, I've never had to send any parts back to a good balance shop due to weight differences in between the rods, pistons and so on shruggy All of them did say to not mixed the wrist pins though work
I have not bought any balanced engine assemblies from 440 Source, yet, so I can't comment on their balancing shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2417601
12/12/17 09:37 PM
12/12/17 09:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 516
,Pa.
68dodge Offline
mopar
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I have use two 440 source kits, had them both checked. They were right on. Never had any problems with the short block kits.

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2417641
12/12/17 10:53 PM
12/12/17 10:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines Offline
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Syracuse,NY
Just curious, several of you have mentioned that you have had 440 Sources work " checked" and it was dead nuts on.( it should be with the balancer they use) So, you pay $250 for Source to balance, then have your shop balance it again? So now you have a $500 balance job ( ?) when you could have A) Trusted the Source, since you had them do it in the first place, or B), just ordered it unbalanced and had your shop do it for the $250 anyhow? What am I missing here? There is no way to " check " a balance job, without weighing every component, and then setting up the bob weights and spinning the crank.


RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2417663
12/12/17 11:15 PM
12/12/17 11:15 PM
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Sobieski Wi
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bee1971 Offline
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Sobieski Wi
My machine shop bought the unbalanced 440 source 432 kit

He insisted on balancing it himself

Then I got to watch him weigh / spin the crank / drill / spin the crank

Something like that LOL


1971 Dodge Charger Superbee
2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded
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Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2417666
12/12/17 11:20 PM
12/12/17 11:20 PM
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USA
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Suregrip391 Offline
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Does the harmonic Balancer and flexplate need to be part of the equation to obtain a proper balance? I’m guessing since nobody mentioned having to send theirs to the shop doing the balance job, No. but it was a thought I had.

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: Suregrip391] #2417684
12/13/17 12:01 AM
12/13/17 12:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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PA.
Originally Posted By Suregrip391
Does the harmonic Balancer and flexplate need to be part of the equation to obtain a proper balance? I’m guessing since nobody mentioned having to send theirs to the shop doing the balance job, No. but it was a thought I had.



Shouldn’t need it on an internally balanced engine but I know for sure you need it to balance an external balanced assembly


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: 440 source balance job [Re: Suregrip391] #2417759
12/13/17 02:11 AM
12/13/17 02:11 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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I send the balancers and flywheels in on all the rotating assemblies I have balanced, not the flexplates though shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2417773
12/13/17 02:41 AM
12/13/17 02:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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Watch the 440 source balancing video, then go down and see what kind of balancing machine your machine shop has. That should tell you who gets the job. On balancer and flywheels. The aftermarket ones should be neutral balanced . If they modify them for this particular engine build , every engine after that you want to use them on will have to be balanced also. Balancers and flywheels are costly enough you just don't toss them in the scrap heap.


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2417793
12/13/17 05:12 AM
12/13/17 05:12 AM
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Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
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I paid three times. Bought the 440 source balanced kit, new machine guy said he should check/balance the crank, put it together and had vibration, took apart and had trusted shop take out the weight the other shop put in to get it back to where it was originally....

After that, on my next stroker, I bought a nice scale and rod holding fixture and checked all the weights myself and they were very close, within a gram, so I used the kit as delivered and no problems with vibration, it is nice and smooth.

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: 451Mopar] #2418039
12/13/17 05:07 PM
12/13/17 05:07 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
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Who did you buy the rod fixture from? help I want one up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 source balance job [Re: Cab_Burge] #2418101
12/13/17 07:06 PM
12/13/17 07:06 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Cab make your own. $9.95 HF digital scale (which is just as accurate as my buddys high dollar one). level the rod untill the big/small end holes, their "centers" are the same height above the table & I dont think it needs to be dead on (iirc from talking to my shop). make a mark on the center of the scale platform to dead center/repeat where you set it where it contacts the rod bolt nut (when weighing the big end). make 2 magic marker "tic" marks on the rod on top where the dental floss comes up and around & touches the top side of the rod so you can duplicate that position each time. A magic mark on the horizontle rod so the dental floss stays put (or a touch of super glue). Get a weight then take the rod off & repeat & if you get the same weight or within a gram or two you are good. Dont even need the horizontle fixture I just happened to have it handy otherwise I would have tied the floss to the kitchen cabinet handle. The shop I go to weighs either the small or the big end then subtracts the one of those that they use from the total rod weight to get the weight of the other end (that reminds me to ask them again) but it might be beneficial to weigh both (& the total).

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live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 source balance job [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #2418332
12/14/17 02:57 AM
12/14/17 02:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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383man Offline
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Originally Posted By CompWedgeEngines
Just curious, several of you have mentioned that you have had 440 Sources work " checked" and it was dead nuts on.( it should be with the balancer they use) So, you pay $250 for Source to balance, then have your shop balance it again? So now you have a $500 balance job ( ?) when you could have A) Trusted the Source, since you had them do it in the first place, or B), just ordered it unbalanced and had your shop do it for the $250 anyhow? What am I missing here? There is no way to " check " a balance job, without weighing every component, and then setting up the bob weights and spinning the crank.



It reminds me of when people want their Front End Alignment checked ? Oh know I dont want to pay for an alignment I just want it checked ? Course I have to tell them to check it you have to put it on the machine which means you are paying for an alignment. Now after we check it we can adjust it if needed which is included. LoL Ron

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: 451Mopar] #2418339
12/14/17 03:44 AM
12/14/17 03:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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gulfport, ms, west mi
Originally Posted By 451Mopar
I paid three times. Bought the 440 source balanced kit, new machine guy said he should check/balance the crank, put it together and had vibration, took apart and had trusted shop take out the weight the other shop put in to get it back to where it was originally....

After that, on my next stroker, I bought a nice scale and rod holding fixture and checked all the weights myself and they were very close, within a gram, so I used the kit as delivered and no problems with vibration, it is nice and smooth.



So you have $700 + just in balancing? The second shop must of had a trainee working that day or some pretty crapy equipment.


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rowin4] #2418356
12/14/17 08:09 AM
12/14/17 08:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
70RT Charger Offline
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eastern,Ky
I’m supprised 440 source hasn’t came out with aftermarket blocks for our cars. I think it would be cool to purchase an aftermarket 512 short block already assembled that’d be good for a 1,000 hp lol. Maybe the money just isn’t there.

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: rbkt65] #2418387
12/14/17 11:11 AM
12/14/17 11:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,828
Ontario, Canada
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Stanton Offline
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Stanton  Offline
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Quote:
I’m surprised 440 source hasn’t came out with aftermarket blocks for our cars


Many have tried and failed BUT with bare used blocks now getting up there in price its not a bad idea. Make the block sufficient to take their 540 kit !!

Re: 440 source balance job [Re: Stanton] #2418435
12/14/17 01:02 PM
12/14/17 01:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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PA.
I was on the list many many years ago for two blocks when Brandon(440source) was hoping to have a block cast. It was and still is a good idea but because of my age i officially give up my spot in line to a younger member


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: 440 source balance job [Re: 70RT Charger] #2418450
12/14/17 01:33 PM
12/14/17 01:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
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Manitoba, Canada
Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
I’m supprised 440 source hasn’t came out with aftermarket blocks for our cars. I think it would be cool to purchase an aftermarket 512 short block already assembled that’d be good for a 1,000 hp lol. Maybe the money just isn’t there.


Years ago he was planning on coming out with a block. If memory serves the project died because the foundries he was working with wanted him to put in a minimum order for like 10,000 engine blocks and that was like decades worth of stock for 440source to eat. I can understand from the factory's point of view needing that many to make back tooling costs and to offer them for any kind of a reasonable price. Anyway, after that I think the idea was dead in the water.

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