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#2403895 - 11/15/17 08:24 AM '04 5.7 with '09-up heads?
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 10971
Loc: Marion, South Carolina [><]
I have a friend w/ a 2004 5.7 hemi that dropped a valve seat and chewed a cylinder.
He's looking to get a replacement motor, but doesn't want to run into this issue again. I know the early hemis are known to drop seats, but apparently they fixed this issue in the 2009 models?

What is involved in using the '09-up heads on the earlier motor? I've been told I'd need to get the valve covers and coil packs for the newer heads. Any other differences?
How much does the compression increase doing this swap?

Would it be easier (or even possible) to use the complete 2009-up motor in the older vehicle?
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'70 hemicuda...8.91 at 150.5 mph street car...Mopar Action feature Dec. '14
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#2403977 - 11/15/17 11:46 AM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
RTSE4ME Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1620
Loc: MD
You'll also need pushrods, and intake manifold.
compression 12-12.5 on a stock piston 5.7

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#2404077 - 11/15/17 03:05 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 10971
Loc: Marion, South Carolina [><]
OK, so the compression makes this swap not feasible for a daily driver w/ no other mods.

Anyone know if the newer motor is a drop in for the old one?

Or just get another old style motor and hope the seats stay put?
_________________________
CHIP
'70 hemicuda...8.91 at 150.5 mph street car...Mopar Action feature Dec. '14
'69 road runner 440 w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax...toy hauler
'16 Grand Caravan SXT...baby hauler

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#2404142 - 11/15/17 04:37 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9897
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
I have worked on a bunch of these engines and never seen a seat drop unless it overheated first.

The later heads bolt on with pushrods being the minimum extra parts needed. The intake and ex manifolds are good to do at the same time.

I came up with 11.5 when I actually CCd everything I had sitting here. That is only a little more than an apache 392 so I think it could live on premium. You can try thicker head gaskets but in my experiance and many others the higher quench distance is more likely to cause detonation than the higher static compression. The late hemi chamber is very detonation resistant and the plastic intakes keep a lot of heat out of the air charge. All this adds up to a very compression tolerant design. The extra compression will improve MPG some and help offset the cost of premium though probably not the entire cost difference. You could upgrade to a 6.1 cam and also bleed off a little compression for cheap as well as help hp.

The short block is diffent enough to make swapping the short block not worth it, the VVT uses a different timing cover and will make some headaches in the swap.
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#2404208 - 11/15/17 06:36 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: HotRodDave]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4107
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
I have worked on a bunch of these engines and never seen a seat drop unless it overheated first.

The later heads bolt on with pushrods being the minimum extra parts needed. The intake and ex manifolds are good to do at the same time.

I came up with 11.5 when I actually CCd everything I had sitting here. That is only a little more than an apache 392 so I think it could live on premium. You can try thicker head gaskets but in my experiance and many others the higher quench distance is more likely to cause detonation than the higher static compression. The late hemi chamber is very detonation resistant and the plastic intakes keep a lot of heat out of the air charge. All this adds up to a very compression tolerant design. The extra compression will improve MPG some and help offset the cost of premium though probably not the entire cost difference. You could upgrade to a 6.1 cam and also bleed off a little compression for cheap as well as help hp.

The short block is diffent enough to make swapping the short block not worth it, the VVT uses a different timing cover and will make some headaches in the swap.


What if you used a complete Eagle engine for the respective chassis (LX for LX, truck for truck)? The LX looks like it would be a drop in physically. You'd have to lock out the cam. What about the sensors? Are they the same/able to be swapped over?

I have a DD 05 Magnum RT that I would like to play with when it's DD duties are done. Pondered the Eagle head swap but by the time you're done buying the parts, you aren't far off from a complete Eagle engine

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#2404276 - 11/15/17 08:30 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9897
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
locking the cam is super simple and no special parts or kit needed. I don't know if the cam phaser will fit behind the earlier timing cover.
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#2404614 - 11/16/17 05:45 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: HotRodDave]
ric3xrt Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1238
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
The early cover doesn't work on the vvt engines, phaser hit the cover and the sensor will be in the wrong spot
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#2405167 - 11/17/17 05:30 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4107
Loc: Canada
I’m talking a complete engine swap, a complete Eagle engine, you’d use the Eagle front cover and accessories. Lock the cam and swap over the necessary sensors but use all the Eagle stuff you can


Edited by WO23Coronet (11/17/17 06:00 PM)

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#2405782 - 11/18/17 11:32 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
RTSrunner Offline
pro stock

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 1400
Loc: Pittsburgh,PA
Doesn't the tone ring have a different tooth count on the later engine vs the early gen3? Requiring the crank to be pulled to change.

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#2407103 - 11/21/17 08:23 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: RTSrunner]
GoForBroke Offline
member

Registered: 11/21/17
Posts: 10
Loc: Mid West US
Originally Posted By RTSrunner
Doesn't the tone ring have a different tooth count on the later engine vs the early gen3? Requiring the crank to be pulled to change.


Correct 03-08 5.7 have a 32 tooth and 09-up have a 58 tooth. They cant be swapped out without rebalancing the crank either. It's not an easy swap I believe the accessories have been moved a little so your alternator, AC compressor, etc.. won't line up.

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#2407256 - 11/22/17 07:28 AM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: WO23Coronet]
ric3xrt Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1238
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
Originally Posted By WO23Coronet
I’m talking a complete engine swap, a complete Eagle engine, you’d use the Eagle front cover and accessories. Lock the cam and swap over the necessary sensors but use all the Eagle stuff you can



I can't speak for the Eagle 5.7 but, the 6.4 BGE truck Apache. we have one running in a 06 magnum, pulled the crank swapped a 6.1 32 tooth ring on it, new bearings, locked the cam and away it went,(after some tuning,) Car had Air condition and Power steering removed,only accessory is the Alternator (power rack replaced with a Flaming river custom unit), car has about 22k on it after the swap. Still has the Apache front cover on it.

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#2407297 - 11/22/17 09:02 AM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
GoForBroke Offline
member

Registered: 11/21/17
Posts: 10
Loc: Mid West US
No vibrations I'm assuming. The 32 tooth wheel weighs 121 grams more than the 58 tooth.

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#2407501 - 11/22/17 03:32 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
ric3xrt Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1238
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
Runs smooth, maybe it's the 4 bolt vs 3 bolt, Maybe 4 Bolt distributes the extra weight more evenly than the 5.7s..Not sure what to say...runs fine.
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#2407549 - 11/22/17 05:33 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9897
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
on both tone wheels the weight is distributed pretty evenly so its not going to make a difference that one is heavier than the other.
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#2414769 - 12/07/17 01:34 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: HotRodDave]
Tom_440 Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 5003
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
When my '05 5.7 dropped a valve seat, I spoke with a local machine shop. The owner says they do a lot of these and simply "stake" the seats and they don't drop again.

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#2414848 - 12/07/17 03:57 PM Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: Tom_440]
HotRodDave Offline
master

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 9897
Loc: Kalispell Mt.
Originally Posted By Tom_440
When my '05 5.7 dropped a valve seat, I spoke with a local machine shop. The owner says they do a lot of these and simply "stake" the seats and they don't drop again.


sounds hokey to me, especially since every one I have seen with a dropped seat the head was all tore up and the recess where the seat fell out would no longer even fit snug with a new seat in it. When a brand new head is like $500 why bother with all that?
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I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!




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