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#2413476 - 12/05/17 06:51 AM VVT cam journal size .
aus370 Offline
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Registered: 10/17/17
Posts: 37
Loc: Australia
I can see the front journal on a VVT cam is longer , but is it a different diameter . I have seen someone makes an adapter to put older cams in vvt blocks . Is there anything that would stop a good machinist from making something up to do this , or is there more to it .
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#2413484 - 12/05/17 07:45 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
ric3xrt Offline
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Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1091
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
Originally Posted By aus370
I can see the front journal on a VVT cam is longer , but is it a different diameter . I have seen someone makes an adapter to put older cams in vvt blocks . Is there anything that would stop a good machinist from making something up to do this , or is there more to it .


Yes the VVT front Bearing is a larger Diameter.

there is more to it then just making an adaptor for the cam, you also need to plug the passage for the solenoid.


Attachments
Hemitronix.jpg


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#2414072 - 12/06/17 05:23 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
Medlock51 Offline
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Registered: 06/15/16
Posts: 144
Loc: Wisconsin
I would think you could machine a spacer to reduce the front journal diameter and run an early front cam bearing...

Isn't the front of the block .060 longer at the cam journal?

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#2414083 - 12/06/17 07:17 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: Medlock51]
aus370 Offline
member

Registered: 10/17/17
Posts: 37
Loc: Australia
I like that Idea Medlock51 , not shure how much longer the block is at that point .

Looking at the pic above it seems the adaptor locates on the early cam via a recess and a dowl hole , then the outer diameter acts as the cam journal to fit in the larger cam bearing , and the length extends the sprocket forward the required amount .
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Stock 6.1 Hemi . 11.657 @ 113.54 , 3588 lbs.
Sweet on the street , a bit dull on the track .

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#2414092 - 12/06/17 08:06 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
fbs63 Offline
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Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 1238
Loc: NW Indiana
The person to talk to about this is Steff. He designed and built a belt drive for the vvt blocks with the non-vvt cam. It's more than just an adapter. IIRC he mentioned some oiling mods to the cam bearing also.

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#2414093 - 12/06/17 08:08 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
ric3xrt Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1091
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
1st photo is a 6.1 cam in a VVT block,
2nd photo is a 6.1 Cam vs a SRT392 cam or Non VVT vs VVT.

It's not just the diameter of the front journal , you still need to extend the front of the cam by about .60+/-.10

I'll try and get some photos up of the differences between the two blocks this weekend.


Attachments
Pre Eagle Cam VVT Block.jpg

SRT 6.1 VS SRT 392 Cam.jpg



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#2414097 - 12/06/17 08:14 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
ric3xrt Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1091
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
My 1st thought was to mill down the cam area in the VVT block and plug any oil passage that I encounter, problem with that theory is there are water passages in in the VVT block that would be in the path of the area that needs to be milled.

I think(just a theory here) that a VVT block could be machined for a cam roller bearing and that might be a work around for deleting the VVT system.....but would it be coast prohibitive ?

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#2414150 - 12/06/17 10:07 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
STEFF Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3739
Loc: Smyrna, South Carolina
It's totally different between VVT and non-VVT, like shown above. The best way to handle it is to pony up and spend the money on a custom cam core....$1000 ball park. I made an adapter like shown above from Nutter Racing and it's hanging on my wall. Do not like it at all, just hanging off the front. I looked at making an adapter that would include the whole journal instead of just the front only but the wall thickness of the adapter would be too thin in that it would probably crack when being heat treated or being pressed on to the cam.

Again, the best way to remedy this if you are going to use a VVT block and not use the VVT features, is to have a custom core made. That's what I did.

Unfortunately, the current cores available for the VVT blocks are only capable of handling cam specs that are compatible for use with the VVT and computer features.

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#2414151 - 12/06/17 10:09 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: ric3xrt]
STEFF Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3739
Loc: Smyrna, South Carolina
Originally Posted By ric3xrt
My 1st thought was to mill down the cam area in the VVT block and plug any oil passage that I encounter, problem with that theory is there are water passages in in the VVT block that would be in the path of the area that needs to be milled.

I think(just a theory here) that a VVT block could be machined for a cam roller bearing and that might be a work around for deleting the VVT system.....but would it be coast prohibitive ?


I looked at this 5 years ago and went thru every scenario you mentioned to modifying the block and it's not worth it. The cooling passages get in the way. It would be a mess.

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#2414163 - 12/06/17 10:30 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
ric3xrt Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1091
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
I did 2 VVT builds this year ,2 weeks(11/15/17) ago we tore down one of the VVT builds that used the delete kit, and the front cam bearing is grooved at the back edge where the adaptor rides on the bearing
, car had 40 runs and roughly 3500 mile on the build. we pulled it just to check to see how the VVT delete was holding up.

now the engine owner is thinking of taking a Non VVT cam core , turning down the front journal, and making a "cap" (his words) to place over the front of the cam......My opinion is it's not worth the cost for one unit.

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#2414175 - 12/06/17 10:51 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: ric3xrt]
STEFF Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3739
Loc: Smyrna, South Carolina
Originally Posted By ric3xrt
I did 2 VVT builds this year ,2 weeks(11/15/17) ago we tore down one of the VVT builds that used the delete kit, and the front cam bearing is grooved at the back edge where the adaptor rides on the bearing
, car had 40 runs and roughly 3500 mile on the build. we pulled it just to check to see how the VVT delete was holding up.

now the engine owner is thinking of taking a Non VVT cam core , turning down the front journal, and making a "cap" (his words) to place over the front of the cam......My opinion is it's not worth the cost for one unit.


I agree. Doing all the mods to a non-VVT cam and making an adapter is time wasted. The cost of a regular cam is $500-600. The cost of a custom core VVT is double that. Not a severe hit to the budget.

Wasn't sure if the Nutter adapter kit came with a new cam bearing, but yes, front bearing mods are required to get the oil to the adapter, where it rides. I plugged all of the oiling at the front journal for the VVT and drilled a new oiling hole for the cam bearing from the main feed line, then added a small oil channel in the cam journal as a passage to a new oil hole I added to the cam bearing. The oil hole is under the front of the most forward VVT cam journal.


Edited by STEFF (12/06/17 10:57 AM)

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#2414198 - 12/06/17 11:30 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: ric3xrt]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4038
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By ric3xrt
I did 2 VVT builds this year ,2 weeks(11/15/17) ago we tore down one of the VVT builds that used the delete kit, and the front cam bearing is grooved at the back edge where the adaptor rides on the bearing
, car had 40 runs and roughly 3500 mile on the build. we pulled it just to check to see how the VVT delete was holding up.

now the engine owner is thinking of taking a Non VVT cam core , turning down the front journal, and making a "cap" (his words) to place over the front of the cam......My opinion is it's not worth the cost for one unit.


What caused the groove? Was the adapter moving/squirming around on the front cam journal, making it cockeyed? When you guys pressed the adapter onto the non VVT cam did you through a dial indicator on the journals to see how true it ran? (not questioning your work, just wondering the process for installing the adapter)

Like mentioned, would it not work if you sleeved the front VVT journal down to non VVT size, install a non VVT cam bearing and use a spacer on the front of the cam to make up the length difference? Maybe not economical for a customer but if someone had a basic lathe to do it for themselves it wouldn't be to hard, no?

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#2414225 - 12/06/17 12:10 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: WO23Coronet]
STEFF Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3739
Loc: Smyrna, South Carolina
Originally Posted By WO23Coronet
Originally Posted By ric3xrt
I did 2 VVT builds this year ,2 weeks(11/15/17) ago we tore down one of the VVT builds that used the delete kit, and the front cam bearing is grooved at the back edge where the adaptor rides on the bearing
, car had 40 runs and roughly 3500 mile on the build. we pulled it just to check to see how the VVT delete was holding up.

now the engine owner is thinking of taking a Non VVT cam core , turning down the front journal, and making a "cap" (his words) to place over the front of the cam......My opinion is it's not worth the cost for one unit.


What caused the groove? Was the adapter moving/squirming around on the front cam journal, making it cockeyed? When you guys pressed the adapter onto the non VVT cam did you through a dial indicator on the journals to see how true it ran? (not questioning your work, just wondering the process for installing the adapter)

Like mentioned, would it not work if you sleeved the front VVT journal down to non VVT size, install a non VVT cam bearing and use a spacer on the front of the cam to make up the length difference? Maybe not economical for a customer but if someone had a basic lathe to do it for themselves it wouldn't be to hard, no?


The Nutter design cam adapter does not press onto the cam. It gets sandwiched between the cam & cam gear, when bolted together. Turning something on a lather is only part of the job. It would need to be hardened and then ground on the OD to bring it to size and get a nice surface finish.

The biggest thing I didn't like about it, is the fact that the oiling for the cam journal is not covered by the cam anymore which means there is a big oil leak now. The oil grooves in the VVT cam line up with two feed holes in the bearing, that provides the oil to the Cam Phaser. Once you put the smaller non VVT cam journal in there, they are wide open and the adapter is forward of the oiling holes. The adapter only gets residual oil, not a direct feed.

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#2414236 - 12/06/17 12:30 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
ric3xrt Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1091
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
Lip might be more accurate, I think the cause is the mismatch of surface area, cam bearing is about 2.685 in width/length and the adaptor is about .625 thick , the adaptor is nothing more than a disk that bolts to the front of the pre eagle cam.
The difference in diameter between the two cams is about.070 give or take a.010 like Steff said really not enough thickness for a sleeve to be reliable.
I wouldn't take the risk of it turning in the bore and closing off an oil passage

.

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#2414251 - 12/06/17 12:54 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
ric3xrt Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1091
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
1st photo , you can see both oil slots , the back slot is the one that is "uncovered" when using the Nutter adaptor.
The pre eagle 1st cam journal is feed from the bottom, the VVTs are fed from the top.
2nd photo, oil comes up from the bottom, comes out this passage, travels around the channel( keep in mind there is plate that covers these channels) goes up into the solenoid then feeds the journal.
The plunger in Nutters kit is supposed to block off oil to the 2nd slot ,but I filled that with epoxy anyway.


Attachments
VVT Block 1st cam oil.jpg

VVT Block 1st cam oil 2.jpg




Edited by ric3xrt (12/06/17 12:57 PM)

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#2414265 - 12/06/17 01:33 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4038
Loc: Canada
What are the oil holes in the VVT cam journal grooves for? Is this the feed/return for the VVT?

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#2414270 - 12/06/17 01:40 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: WO23Coronet]
STEFF Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3739
Loc: Smyrna, South Carolina
Originally Posted By WO23Coronet
What are the oil holes in the VVT cam journal grooves for? Is this the feed/return for the VVT?


Yes.

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#2414330 - 12/06/17 03:54 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4038
Loc: Canada
So if you want to lock out the VVT for installation into an older platform, do you just mechanically lock the VVT mechanism at what lever ICL you want and unplug the solenoid?

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#2414506 - 12/06/17 09:51 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
Medlock51 Offline
member

Registered: 06/15/16
Posts: 144
Loc: Wisconsin
Maybe I can dig up some info at PRI this weekend.. but might not since I'm only there Saturday.

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#2414588 - 12/07/17 06:37 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: WO23Coronet]
ric3xrt Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 1091
Loc: Trumbauersville PA
Originally Posted By WO23Coronet
So if you want to lock out the VVT for installation into an older platform, do you just mechanically lock the VVT mechanism at what lever ICL you want and unplug the solenoid?


Yes, keep in mind that the VVT system is full advance at start up, the oil pressure retards the cam when needed.

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#2414590 - 12/07/17 06:48 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
aus370 Offline
member

Registered: 10/17/17
Posts: 37
Loc: Australia
Big thanks ric3xrt , steff for clearing this up .
I carefully read through a few times - Convinced me , there's possable work arounds , but just not worth it .
_________________________
Stock 6.1 Hemi . 11.657 @ 113.54 , 3588 lbs.
Sweet on the street , a bit dull on the track .

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#2414591 - 12/07/17 06:53 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: STEFF]
aus370 Offline
member

Registered: 10/17/17
Posts: 37
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By STEFF
It's totally different between VVT and non-VVT, like shown above. The best way to handle it is to pony up and spend the money on a custom cam core....$1000 ball park. I made an adapter like shown above from Nutter Racing and it's hanging on my wall. Do not like it at all, just hanging off the front. I looked at making an adapter that would include the whole journal instead of just the front only but the wall thickness of the adapter would be too thin in that it would probably crack when being heat treated or being pressed on to the cam.

Again, the best way to remedy this if you are going to use a VVT block and not use the VVT features, is to have a custom core made. That's what I did.

Unfortunately, the current cores available for the VVT blocks are only capable of handling cam specs that are compatible for use with the VVT and computer features.
Who does these custom vvt cam cores.
_________________________
Stock 6.1 Hemi . 11.657 @ 113.54 , 3588 lbs.
Sweet on the street , a bit dull on the track .

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#2414592 - 12/07/17 06:57 AM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
fbs63 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 1238
Loc: NW Indiana
LSM

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#2414728 - 12/07/17 12:21 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
cudadoug Offline
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Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 3049
Loc: Between a rock & a hard place
So, is there any way to use a VVT cam in VVT block, but lock out the function? Just curious...

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#2414732 - 12/07/17 12:23 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: cudadoug]
STEFF Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3739
Loc: Smyrna, South Carolina
Originally Posted By cudadoug
So, is there any way to use a VVT cam in VVT block, but lock out the function? Just curious...


Yes, Comp has a VVT Lock kit.

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#2414749 - 12/07/17 12:55 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
WO23Coronet Offline
master

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 4038
Loc: Canada
Would it be possible (or has anyone tried) to manually control the solenoid so you can set your ICL on the fly? Advance it for bottom end and retard it for top end? (Or whatever works best for your combo)


Edited by WO23Coronet (12/07/17 12:55 PM)

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#2414844 - 12/07/17 03:47 PM Re: VVT cam journal size . [Re: aus370]
Bad340fish Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5672
Loc: Tulsa OK
With a large cam piston to valve clearance might be a problem. I believe the Megasquirt 3 goldbox platform supports VVT for the G3. I know megasquirt is capable of VVT control on lots of other cars.
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