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#2413053 - 12/04/17 11:00 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Sunroofcuda]
Triggerfish Offline
top fuel

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 1900
Loc: Blairsden, CA
Originally Posted By Sunroofcuda
Back in the early 80's, I once took my '71 Hemi Charger R/T to 145 - I remember my tach was showing 5800 RPM. This was an auto & 3:55 gears. It still had more to go & was not running out of breath to get there, but then it dawned on me I was just running Polyglas bias ply tires & I hit the brakes!

Wow! That brings back memories! Back in 70, I raced my new 383 4spd 'Cuda
against my friend's 63 split window fulie Vette down from Lee's Canyon to hwy 95 & then into Vegas. I remember my friend's huge eyes glaring at my 150 speedo that was pegged. 150+ on F70 14"Polyglass tires known for belt separation...how lucky we were. Also remember my bro racing a series 1 XKE at 150 in his 68 Charger R/T (440). So I'd think the wing cars with 2.76's would eclipse 175 easy.

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#2413056 - 12/04/17 11:02 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Sunroofcuda]
62maxwgn Offline
master

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 8574
Loc: Central,PA
At one time I ran mine to 146,sixpack 4spd,3.54 rear (not sure how accurate the speedometer was) and car was very stable at that speed,I quit there but it was obvious it still had more to go.

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#2413113 - 12/04/17 12:50 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Sunroofcuda]
floridian Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 1574
Loc: Lakeland FL
Originally Posted By Sunroofcuda
John's Superbird at speed was VERY stable - I can tell you that. My '71 Charger at 145 was also very stable & smooth - did not feel squirrelly at all. Now I did have a ride in a '69 Vette 427 & at about 90 that car started feeling very light in the front & started getting very unstable - I could feel the Vette lifting. The street Superbird has excellent & functional aerodynamics - it's definitely NOT just looks. I think most people who have wing cars will attest to this if they have taken them up.


The original 63 vette had lift problems and the "mako shark"( body style) which came out in 68, was supposed to make its debut in 67 but had body lift problems also.... Look at the front of a C2 corvette, looks like a wing....

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#2413384 - 12/04/17 10:43 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: floridian]
Greenwood Offline
member

Registered: 09/27/17
Posts: 56
Loc: Red Deer, Alberta
IIRC, the coefficient of drag on a new Charger was modestly better than a Daytona, when tested in a wind tunnel. A new Hellcat will run 200 on 707 hp, so a Daytona would need to be making similar steam in order to make 200. That happens to jive with commonly accepted numbers of 650-700 hp that were bandied about. The Petty's and Junior Johnson and Bud Moore weren't exactly being forthcoming with dyno numbers back then. If we account for for the fact that Cup cars were genuinely slipperier than their production counterparts, it kind of adds up.
Don't forget, those cars might have had a cool shape, made even slicker by the sheetmetal guys, but they still had a bolt upright windshield, which is not necessarily reflected in the drag numbers.

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#2413416 - 12/04/17 11:31 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
poorboy Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 6412
Loc: Freeport IL USA
I think the real issue with driving an original Superbird or Daytona up to 200 mph would have been limited by the tires, and a location with a straight enough long enough to get to top speed. When you add any curve or turn, you would loose a lot of speed and would require more distance. Most of the high speed runs were at high speed banked tracks, or salt flats, where both venues would require special equipment and may still be too short for a 425 Hp motor to get up to max speed.

What I find interesting is that most videos showing high speed runs are done with open side windows. Wouldn't the air coming into the car through those open side windows and striking the back window act like a big parachute? Gene

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#2413421 - 12/04/17 11:35 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Greenwood]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19215
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Originally Posted By Greenwood

Don't forget, those cars might have had a cool shape, made even slicker by the sheetmetal guys, but they still had a bolt upright windshield, which is not necessarily reflected in the drag numbers.


Huh? Ya lost me there, please explain.

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#2413514 - 12/05/17 09:07 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: EV2Bird]
19swinger70 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 3617
Loc: Richmond, Indiana
Originally Posted By EV2Bird
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMQV3o_xb_o

Later in the vid on the board it shows 145mph?


Holy Crap! He is beating that thing like a stepchild! Skinny tires too!
_________________________
1970 340 swinger. sublime 1967 barracuda fastback BB project 55 Plymouth Project

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#2413519 - 12/05/17 09:23 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: poorboy]
feets Offline
Senior Management

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27229
Loc: Irving, TX
Originally Posted By poorboy
What I find interesting is that most videos showing high speed runs are done with open side windows. Wouldn't the air coming into the car through those open side windows and striking the back window act like a big parachute? Gene


At those speeds the windshield is smashing a big hole in the wind and there isn't much air coming into the car. It is comparatively dirty when you consider the more laminar flow of newer cars.

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#2413601 - 12/05/17 12:24 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: feets]
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15953
Loc: Mass
Originally Posted By feets
Originally Posted By poorboy
What I find interesting is that most videos showing high speed runs are done with open side windows. Wouldn't the air coming into the car through those open side windows and striking the back window act like a big parachute? Gene


At those speeds the windshield is smashing a big hole in the wind and there isn't much air coming into the car. It is comparatively dirty when you consider the more laminar flow of newer cars.




For an off chance of a quick run up to speed and then backing off, yeah the wind in the car isn't to bad to deal with, but if your cruising for some extended time at 100 mph+, the wind/air build up in the car eventually wreaks havoc on your headliner, at 150mph the wind in the car sounds like a banner/flag roaring in the wind, besides when your out for a cruise on the highway in a wingcar, it's a giant magnet for every motorhead to want a high speed run, and the last thing I want to do at 100-150mph is rolling up windows on a hot summer day...hence my reason for having power windows in my Daytona

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#2413611 - 12/05/17 12:39 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Orange_Crush Offline
Belieber!

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 17965
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Consider this.

The vast majority of 200MPH+ capable road cars (Viper, Lambo Aventador, Ferrari F12 Berlinetta, Charger Hellcat, for example) are pushing out 650 to 700 horsepower. Every one of them is hitting a wall right around 210MPH. See, wind resistance is not linear. The amount of power needed to punch a hole in the wind increases exponentially with speed.

A 300 HP car (C4 Vette, for example) will easily make it to 150MPH, but it takes 650+ horsepower to push out that additional 60MPH to 210. So it takes about double the amount of horsepower to eke out an additional 60MPH

Now...witness the Bugatti Veyron and Chiron, Koenigsegg Agera, etc.

The Veyron, for example can make it to 250 or so MPH, but it was blasting out 1,200 horsepower, so almost double the horsepower of a Viper to get an additional 40MPH (I use the viper as an example due to the small size and purpose-built nature).

All this is to say that modern exotics which are tiny (the Viper is about the same size as a Porsche 911) and have pretty good aerodynamics will take a good 650+ horses to hit 200MPH. You can possibly expect the same from a Superbird (if you have the grapes to drive one that fast). Gearing might make a tiny difference, but at that speed, it's all about sheer brute force.

Keep in mind that the giant wing, contrary to popular belief, is a major hindrance to top speed. Yeah, it keeps the tail planted, but it also has to punch a hole through the air. You'd be much better off with something like a trunk lip spoiler.
_________________________
1970 Dodge Charger R/T Hemi Orange U-code 4-speed
1971 Jaguar E-Type Series 3 V-12 4-speed 2+2 Signal Red.

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#2413638 - 12/05/17 01:21 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Orange_Crush]
rrbrucea Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10130
Loc: Nort Cackalacky
Crush, you explain it perfectly, and I'll illustrate your point with the Beineke's next endeavor. See, they have gone 200, and it's repeatable with the two cars they've built. They now are in search of the 300 mph barrier, and to chase that they have built THIS—a '71 Daytona bodied funny car powered by an alcohol-fueled blown Hemi. Will they achieve their goal of 300? I don't know, but they're evidently going to have fun trying!

And yeah, that's my ugly mug behind the wheel... I ain't purty.


Attachments
Funny.jpg



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#2414570 - 12/07/17 12:36 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Aero426]
383man Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 26891
Loc: Balt. Md
[quote=Aero426]I think a stock configuration Hemi Superbird with tall gears would be a hand full to drive and would not get anywhere near 200. Certainly street tires of the period would be a liability.

Back in the mid-70's there were some guys in Germany who had brought wing cars over. They ran them on autobahn speed trials. About 160 was what I remember as a top speed. These were 440 powered with tall gears and not necessarily "stock" cars.

When the #88 broke the 200 lap average at Talladega, it took a state of the art race car with a high HP race Hemi and a very heavy flywheel. The data trace for acceleration is almost a straight line and shows almost no difference in speed all the way around the track.



Actually the Daytona that broke 200 mph at Talladega in 1969 I believe was much closer to stock then race cars of today. Yes it was set up for racing but I believe they still used stock type suspension and steering. In fact one of the races at that track I believe is where some drivers boycotted and would not run it because they felt the tires of the day would not hold the cars on that fast track to well. But I was surprised when I saw the car in a mag as to how stock some of it looked.
I had heard they felt a stock Hemi wing car with low gearing like 2.76 could do about 160 tops. Ron
_________________________
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#2414585 - 12/07/17 06:23 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: poorboy]
Spaceman Spiff Offline
master

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 3349
Loc: jersey
Originally Posted By poorboy
I think the real issue with driving an original Superbird or Daytona up to 200 mph would have been limited by the tires, and a location with a straight enough long enough to get to top speed. When you add any curve or turn, you would loose a lot of speed and would require more distance. Most of the high speed runs were at high speed banked tracks, or salt flats, where both venues would require special equipment and may still be too short for a 425 Hp motor to get up to max speed.

What I find interesting is that most videos showing high speed runs are done with open side windows. Wouldn't the air coming into the car through those open side windows and striking the back window act like a big parachute? Gene


When Bill Elliott set 5he fastest lap speed (212 I think) in nascar, his car had no side windows.
_________________________
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!

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#2414599 - 12/07/17 07:23 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Orange_Crush]
Blusmbl Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7439
Loc: Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted By Orange_Crush
The vast majority of 200MPH+ capable road cars (Viper, Lambo Aventador, Ferrari F12 Berlinetta, Charger Hellcat, for example) are pushing out 650 to 700 horsepower. Every one of them is hitting a wall right around 210MPH. See, wind resistance is not linear. The amount of power needed to punch a hole in the wind increases exponentially with speed.


Agreed. The biggest contributors to tractive effort are coefficient of drag, and then frontal area of the vehicle. Tire size makes a difference too. There are rare exceptions- the 05-06 Ford GT could do ~210 without the speed limiter and only had 550 horsepower, but for the most part it takes 650+ SAE net horsepower (not the gross ratings up until 1972) to go 200 in a car. It also has to be geared so you're at peak power at top speed.
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'18 Ford Raptor, '11 Harley Road King Classic, '15 Honda Grom
*looking for driver quality, BB 67-70 B-body convertible*

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#2414607 - 12/07/17 08:20 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: 383man]
rrbrucea Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10130
Loc: Nort Cackalacky
Originally Posted By 383man
Actually the Daytona that broke 200 mph at Talladega in 1969 I believe was much closer to stock then race cars of today. Yes it was set up for racing but I believe they still used stock type suspension and steering. In fact one of the races at that track I believe is where some drivers boycotted and would not run it because they felt the tires of the day would not hold the cars on that fast track to well. But I was surprised when I saw the car in a mag as to how stock some of it looked.
I had heard they felt a stock Hemi wing car with low gearing like 2.76 could do about 160 tops. Ron



Doug would know better than any of us since he OWNs a Superbird stock car from the era, but here's a photo that addresses your point. Other than the tubular upper control arm and double shocks this appears to be very similar to street front suspension at the time. Hard to see the lower control arm and whether anything has been done to beef it up, but it looks like it started life as a Mopar component, doesn't it?

Rear suspensions consisted of a typical third member and utilized the long trailing arms of a Ford Galaxie or something similar, correct? Didn't they also utilize a Jacob's ladder to locate the rear from side to side?


Attachments
426_nascar_rr_front_suspension.jpg



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#2414630 - 12/07/17 09:05 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
360view Offline
master

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 4512
Loc: USA
A 14 year old childhood friend and his older brother were both given 440 six pack Superbirds by their father and mother, both mother and father raced in 1960s NASCAR.

My friend later worked for me in a motor repair shop. He told me more than once that he had driven his Superbird up to 145 mph on a fairly flat stretch of the Mountain Parkway near the Clay City Dragstrip. Bruce said that his Superbird was remarkably stable at high speeds.

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#2414717 - 12/07/17 12:06 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: 360view]
Orange_Crush Offline
Belieber!

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 17965
Loc: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted By 360view


My friend later worked for me in a motor repair shop. He told me more than once that he had driven his Superbird up to 145 mph on a fairly flat stretch of the Mountain Parkway near the Clay City Dragstrip. Bruce said that his Superbird was remarkably stable at high speeds.


I have no doubt whatsoever that they are stable cars at high speed...IF the angle of attack of the wing is set properly.

My major cause of concern with the stock Superbirds and Daytonas is the tremendous amount of downforce that they can (and were designed to) generate.

A standard road tire...even a modern one in the stock size...would probably not last long at 140+MPH speeds with that kind of weight on them. Not to mention the sqwooooshy (by modern standards) suspension would probably settle right the heck down to its bump stops certainly making the car feel more stable...but probably making it more dangerous by taking any compliance out of it.
_________________________
1970 Dodge Charger R/T Hemi Orange U-code 4-speed
1971 Jaguar E-Type Series 3 V-12 4-speed 2+2 Signal Red.

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#2414734 - 12/07/17 12:26 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
360view Offline
master

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 4512
Loc: USA
No matter whether you have the best 1970 tire,
or the best 2016 design tire,
there can be any number of things on road surfaces that can cause catastropic failure.

A cousin of mine was chief engineer at Brighton Engineering who designed the concrete surface of the Mountain Parkway in 1960. Even by the 1970s many of the expansion joints were so bad that they could have destroyed at tire at 145 mph.

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#2414738 - 12/07/17 12:29 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Orange_Crush]
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15953
Loc: Mass
Originally Posted By Orange_Crush


I have no doubt whatsoever that they are stable cars at high speed...IF the angle of attack of the wing is set properly.

My major cause of concern with the stock Superbirds and Daytonas is the tremendous amount of downforce that they can (and were designed to) generate.

A standard road tire...even a modern one in the stock size...would probably not last long at 140+MPH speeds with that kind of weight on them. Not to mention the sqwooooshy (by modern standards) suspension would probably settle right the heck down to its bump stops certainly making the car feel more stable...but probably making it more dangerous by taking any compliance out of it.

[/quote]


Even with the rear wing in it's "stock" fixed position, the downforce is considerable because it's an inverted airfoil, a wingcar's "forced" stability can be felt at speeds as low as 70 MPH, an yes in an rapid acceleration to triple digit speeds you can feel the car squat down on all 4 tires, as far as the suspension hitting the rebound stops....uh, NO smile

An modern tires hold up just fine at triple digit speeds for hours and hundreds of miles, ....now belted PolyGlass tires are another story

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#2414739 - 12/07/17 12:30 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: DAYCLONA]
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15953
Loc: Mass
Originally Posted By Orange_Crush


I have no doubt whatsoever that they are stable cars at high speed...IF the angle of attack of the wing is set properly.

My major cause of concern with the stock Superbirds and Daytonas is the tremendous amount of downforce that they can (and were designed to) generate.

A standard road tire...even a modern one in the stock size...would probably not last long at 140+MPH speeds with that kind of weight on them. Not to mention the sqwooooshy (by modern standards) suspension would probably settle right the heck down to its bump stops certainly making the car feel more stable...but probably making it more dangerous by taking any compliance out of it.




Even with the rear wing in it's "stock" fixed position, the downforce is considerable because it's an inverted airfoil, a wingcar's "forced" stability can be felt at speeds as low as 70 MPH, an yes in an rapid acceleration to triple digit speeds you can feel the car squat down on all 4 tires, as far as the suspension hitting the rebound stops....uh, NO smile

And modern tires hold up just fine at triple digit speeds for hours and hundreds of miles, ....now belted PolyGlass tires are another story

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