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#2412376 - 12/02/17 05:29 PM Street Superbird almost stock top speed?
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 18987
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Two questions,

Say a guy back in the day bought a hemi Superbird, automatic (to get the 8.75) and was looking for simple top speed--stock hemi
Assuming the only changes made are swaping the pumpkin to a 2.76 (or 2.94 if that would be better) and taller rear tires that would still fit, what would the bird top out at???

Would it run out of RPM (not sure what redline was, or if it was even reasonably realistic) or HP?

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#2412407 - 12/02/17 06:19 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
EV2Bird Online   penguin-006
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Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 3733
Loc: Kansas Roads Between 0 and 140...
Just do the math weather a 26,28 30 inch diameter tire, the output in drive is 1 to 1.

I used to street race my 70 v code runner vs a SB and the nose/wing never seemed to be a edge for him on the interstate in the 125-130 area.

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#2412414 - 12/02/17 06:29 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: EV2Bird]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 18987
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Originally Posted By EV2Bird
Just do the math weather a 26,28 30 inch diameter tire, the output in drive is 1 to 1.

I used to street race my 70 v code runner vs a SB and the nose/wing never seemed to be a edge for him on the interstate in the 125-130 area.




I did that for a 30 inch tire, 2.76 gears, and an RPM of 6000 and got 194 mph. No factoring for torque converter loss though.

But does a stock street hemi have the HP to push a bird to 194???

If yes, what was a max rpm redline.

Could a guy have possibly reached 200?

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#2412422 - 12/02/17 06:42 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Sunroofcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6342
Loc: Highland, MI.
Back in the early 80's, I once took my '71 Hemi Charger R/T to 145 - I remember my tach was showing 5800 RPM. This was an auto & 3:55 gears. It still had more to go & was not running out of breath to get there, but then it dawned on me I was just running Polyglas bias ply tires & I hit the brakes!
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#2412429 - 12/02/17 06:54 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
EV2Bird Online   penguin-006
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Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 3733
Loc: Kansas Roads Between 0 and 140...
I never attended any of the winged clubs deals at the high banked tracks but I know some went for some pretty good high speed runs.

Im sure one of those guys can fill in the blanks.

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#2412430 - 12/02/17 06:55 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
EV2Bird Online   penguin-006
No more politics

Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 3733
Loc: Kansas Roads Between 0 and 140...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMQV3o_xb_o

Later in the vid on the board it shows 145mph?

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#2412463 - 12/02/17 08:02 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
rrbrucea Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10034
Loc: Nort Cackalacky
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda
Originally Posted By EV2Bird
Just do the math weather a 26,28 30 inch diameter tire, the output in drive is 1 to 1.

I used to street race my 70 v code runner vs a SB and the nose/wing never seemed to be a edge for him on the interstate in the 125-130 area.




I did that for a 30 inch tire, 2.76 gears, and an RPM of 6000 and got 194 mph. No factoring for torque converter loss though.

But does a stock street hemi have the HP to push a bird to 194???

If yes, what was a max rpm redline.

Could a guy have possibly reached 200?


I really don't think 194 or anywhere near 200 is realistic. Ya know, we car guys LOVE to exaggerate our car stories... like the whole tape a $50 bill to the dash and if you can grab it you can have it Cobra tale...

But take the Beineke's wing cars for example, the '71 #71 K&K Daytona is powered by an aluminum Indy hemi. I'm not sure on the hp, but it's pretty stout. Way more horsepower than a street hemi. That car on a closed course—Bonneville Salt Flats and Loring, ME—has seen just over 200 mph, 205 or something like that. Keep in mind the original #71 K&K went, what, 208 at Bonneville?

Their #43 Superbird is powered by an Ernie Elliot NASCAR small block and has also powered the car to an over 200 mph run.

I'm skeptical that any street wing car could come close to the speeds generated by cars that were built for the purpose these cars are—land speed racing. Regardless of the gearing or the tire height.




Attachments
11011783_10205065655223461_1387128137215727715_o.jpg



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#2412472 - 12/02/17 08:16 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 18987
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
i agree and I suspect that a stock street hemi would be way out of HP before RPM with the 2.76 gears.

With a drag coefficient of .28 is it possible to calculate the Rear wheel HP required to reach a given speed or are other factors needing to be taken into account? I don't know. We can assume no wind, totally flat etc.

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#2412575 - 12/03/17 01:27 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Aero426 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 9975
Loc: Wisconsin
I think a stock configuration Hemi Superbird with tall gears would be a hand full to drive and would not get anywhere near 200. Certainly street tires of the period would be a liability.

Back in the mid-70's there were some guys in Germany who had brought wing cars over. They ran them on autobahn speed trials. About 160 was what I remember as a top speed. These were 440 powered with tall gears and not necessarily "stock" cars.

When the #88 broke the 200 lap average at Talladega, it took a state of the art race car with a high HP race Hemi and a very heavy flywheel. The data trace for acceleration is almost a straight line and shows almost no difference in speed all the way around the track.

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#2412579 - 12/03/17 01:39 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Diego (not Ted) Offline


Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 21863
Loc: Gabba Gabba Hey! NYC
Originally Posted By Pacnorthcuda

With a drag coefficient of .28


I think that was for the race car.

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#2412713 - 12/03/17 02:25 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: EV2Bird]
RapidusMaximus Offline
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Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1925
Loc: Haslet, Texas
Originally Posted By EV2Bird
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMQV3o_xb_o

Later in the vid on the board it shows 145mph?

Wow, first time I've seen that video...that guy was beating on that thing! 200 mph or not...that left front tire was hanging on for dear life eek
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#2412782 - 12/03/17 04:56 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: RapidusMaximus]
RUNCHARGER Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15518
Loc: Chilliwack B.C. Canada
A 426 would pull away nicely from a 440 in this contest. I would expect a 440 Bird to pull somewhere between an honest 135 and 145MPH, A Hemi Bird to be 15MPH above that maybe. Hard to say though and old stories got exaggerated.
My Viper has 600HP, is pretty smooth and is supposed to go 199MPH. So maybe a 480HP Bird would be a bit faster than 160MPH with optimized gearing.
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#2412864 - 12/03/17 08:23 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Aero426]
rrbrucea Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10034
Loc: Nort Cackalacky
Originally Posted By Aero426
I think a stock configuration Hemi Superbird with tall gears would be a hand full to drive and would not get anywhere near 200. Certainly street tires of the period would be a liability.

Back in the mid-70's there were some guys in Germany who had brought wing cars over. They ran them on autobahn speed trials. About 160 was what I remember as a top speed. These were 440 powered with tall gears and not necessarily "stock" cars.

When the #88 broke the 200 lap average at Talladega, it took a state of the art race car with a high HP race Hemi and a very heavy flywheel. The data trace for acceleration is almost a straight line and shows almost no difference in speed all the way around the track.




I think you're right of course, and I can add an additional note about the Beineke's cars.

When they debuted their #71 K&K Daytona at Maxton, SC to make their very first land speed run with the car they had a very small front spoiler on the car. Very similar to what a street Superbird runs. They encountered so much front end lift that the car was indeed a handful to drive. So much front end lift it was noticeable to the naked eye. Enough space between the top of the wheel opening and the front tire that I could probably have stuck my fist in there with room to spare. They didn't see 200 mph that day. In fact I don't think they even saw 185.

So after that debut they spent some time with the car in a wind tunnel and came back with a HUGE front spoiler that controlled the front end lift, and THAT is when they were able to run over 200.

Obviously a street Superbird would suffer from the same kind of front end lift. The wing does indeed work and pushes the rear end down and the front spoiler is really too small to work at significant speed to keep the front end planted.

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#2412885 - 12/03/17 09:15 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Sunroofcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6342
Loc: Highland, MI.
I believe a stock 426 winged car with 2:76 gears, tight suspension & everything in good shape, would hit 170 easy. Been in John Pappas' white 440-4 all stock one night & he buried the speedo - 3:23 gears I believe. I think we did hit an honest 150. Stock Hemi has the poop to go past this easily.
_________________________
“Bear in mind that brains and learning, like muscle and physical skill, are articles of commerce. They are bought and sold. You can hire them by the year or by the hour. The only thing in the world not for sale is character.” (Antonin Scalia)

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#2412899 - 12/03/17 10:16 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 18987
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Whether or not the car would be a handful at speed (it most assuredly would be) isn't really the issue.

What would the power of a stock hemi, given easily available tall gearing back in the day, been able to push our famous enough aero cars to...back then.

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#2412905 - 12/03/17 10:42 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 8782
Loc: $0.6k+B
The late jim fredericks injected bird did 211. He was an interesting guy to talk with regarding efforts to get over 200.
Link <-click
I can vouch a square nose hemi b auto w 3.23 will do 148 with tall tires and in the 130's with 3.55's.

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#2412906 - 12/03/17 10:48 PM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: rrbrucea]
EV2Bird Online   penguin-006
No more politics

Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 3733
Loc: Kansas Roads Between 0 and 140...
Although not super informative, they dont mention any issues with the lower front spoiler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_I3WK8KA38






Originally Posted By rrbrucea
Originally Posted By Aero426
I think a stock configuration Hemi Superbird with tall gears would be a hand full to drive and would not get anywhere near 200. Certainly street tires of the period would be a liability.

Back in the mid-70's there were some guys in Germany who had brought wing cars over. They ran them on autobahn speed trials. About 160 was what I remember as a top speed. These were 440 powered with tall gears and not necessarily "stock" cars.

When the #88 broke the 200 lap average at Talladega, it took a state of the art race car with a high HP race Hemi and a very heavy flywheel. The data trace for acceleration is almost a straight line and shows almost no difference in speed all the way around the track.




I think you're right of course, and I can add an additional note about the Beineke's cars.

When they debuted their #71 K&K Daytona at Maxton, SC to make their very first land speed run with the car they had a very small front spoiler on the car. Very similar to what a street Superbird runs. They encountered so much front end lift that the car was indeed a handful to drive. So much front end lift it was noticeable to the naked eye. Enough space between the top of the wheel opening and the front tire that I could probably have stuck my fist in there with room to spare. They didn't see 200 mph that day. In fact I don't think they even saw 185.

So after that debut they spent some time with the car in a wind tunnel and came back with a HUGE front spoiler that controlled the front end lift, and THAT is when they were able to run over 200.

Obviously a street Superbird would suffer from the same kind of front end lift. The wing does indeed work and pushes the rear end down and the front spoiler is really too small to work at significant speed to keep the front end planted.

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#2412975 - 12/04/17 07:09 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Dilbert Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 2296
Loc: out riding & passing you
A 2017 "street" superbird with a six pak or hemi properly geared will go 140 all day...but the nose better be down at rest and the front spoiler needs to be larger. HP needed too. When you cross the 130 mph mark the spoiler set up gets critical as lot's of air under the car becomes a bad thing. A 2017 street superbird has modern components in the drive line and suspension, 4 wheel alignment, proper brake materials, shocks, H rated tires etc. Like this...440+6 4sp. Gear limited top end 4.10's but capable of it's top speed no problem.

The cars back then when they were new would do the big numbers but it would be spooky compared to today. Polyglass tires, cheap shocks, no pos caster

drive ...the speedometer was buried...I'm glad I was not there. eek


Attachments
S Bird 1@  glen.jpg



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#2413037 - 12/04/17 10:16 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: EV2Bird]
rrbrucea Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10034
Loc: Nort Cackalacky
Originally Posted By EV2Bird
Although not super informative, they dont mention any issues with the lower front spoiler.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_I3WK8KA38



Nope, they don't mention it, but you'll notice the racing wing cars shown in that video are running a front spoiler that is larger than what the street cars did.


Attachments
DaytonaNumber88.jpg

PeteHamilton.jpg



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#2413042 - 12/04/17 10:31 AM Re: Street Superbird almost stock top speed? [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
Sunroofcuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 6342
Loc: Highland, MI.
John's Superbird at speed was VERY stable - I can tell you that. My '71 Charger at 145 was also very stable & smooth - did not feel squirrelly at all. Now I did have a ride in a '69 Vette 427 & at about 90 that car started feeling very light in the front & started getting very unstable - I could feel the Vette lifting. The street Superbird has excellent & functional aerodynamics - it's definitely NOT just looks. I think most people who have wing cars will attest to this if they have taken them up.
_________________________
“Bear in mind that brains and learning, like muscle and physical skill, are articles of commerce. They are bought and sold. You can hire them by the year or by the hour. The only thing in the world not for sale is character.” (Antonin Scalia)

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