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Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: 383man] #2433785
01/13/18 07:40 AM
01/13/18 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted By 383man
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By 383man
Wow Andy you do know how to get awesome power from your Mopars !! Ron


Thanks Ron. Not sure I really know in advance how to make power but if you try enough things eventually some stuff works. I chased my tail with rocker arm ratios and cam grinds and crappy intake manifolds and spacers that didn't work and all of that stuff. First pull with the 470 was 620 hp so we've found 150 hp over the past 18 months.



And us Mopar people do thank you as you do alot of work in testing parts and letting us know what works in many combo's and myself I thank you. I really enjoy reading about your dyno' runs. Ron

I second that.


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Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2433915
01/13/18 02:50 PM
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The springs installed into the Trick Flow heads without any issues. The spring locator drops right in place without any machine work. Installed height in my heads was 1.975 and the seat pressure was 205 lbs. Open pressure at 0.750 lift is 660 lbs.

The conical spring is smaller at the top so there is a ton of clearance around the rocker arm. I had clearance issues with the T&D rocker arms with the dual springs that were in there but now there is plenty of space.

I also test fitted some 7/16 dual taper pushrods. They almost fit but rubbed a little bit so we'll pull the heads and do a little machine work. Should have the engine back on the dyno around the end of the month.

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Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2435143
01/15/18 07:08 PM
01/15/18 07:08 PM
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It's too bad the pressures aren't more in line with the advertised specs.
I was looking forward to seeing if that spring design could really keep everything under control with only 150 on the seat.

At 205/660, while that's still less than I would normally use with that new cam, it's not as low as its "supposed" to be.

But if all goes well...... I could see trying them in something.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2435161
01/15/18 07:37 PM
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Yeah I think they are a great spring, only issue is that they are little on the expensive side. I don't fully understand the difference between 150 in the catalog and 205 when measured. I think it is due to the step on the locator and the retainer but Comp should know about that.

Comp does say that conical springs can be run with much less pressure than normal straight springs but they don't provide any more guidance than that. The engineer I talked to said these springs would work just fine with this cam profile but he didn't say why he felt that way. I know they have done a lot of Spintron testing with these conical springs so I'm guessing that someone knows what works and what doesn't but they didn't pass that knowledge on to me!

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2436100
01/17/18 01:36 AM
01/17/18 01:36 AM
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Mopar Country, Mi
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Originally Posted By AndyF
Yeah I think they are a great spring, only issue is that they are little on the expensive side. I don't fully understand the difference between 150 in the catalog and 205 when measured. I think it is due to the step on the locator and the retainer but Comp should know about that.

Comp does say that conical springs can be run with much less pressure than normal straight springs but they don't provide any more guidance than that. The engineer I talked to said these springs would work just fine with this cam profile but he didn't say why he felt that way. I know they have done a lot of Spintron testing with these conical springs so I'm guessing that someone knows what works and what doesn't but they didn't pass that knowledge on to me!



Still a lot of uncertainty and doubts with both beehive and conical springs. I have seen these new era springs being used on LS platforms making north of 700 horsepower with ZERO issues. I hope the springs perform well for you in that if they exceed your expectations some of the uncertainty and doubts will slowly disappear because these new spring designs are way better than traditional dual springs.

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2436107
01/17/18 01:50 AM
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It seems that the 150 lb seat pressure that is listed in the catalog is incorrect. I exchanged emails with some engineers from Comp today and they said the seat pressure should be higher. They agreed with my 205 lb measurement and verified it on their end.

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2436119
01/17/18 02:24 AM
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Geez - a catalog error. Imagine that.

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2438065
01/20/18 06:49 PM
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Starting to get the top end back together. Dialed in the new cam and did a bunch of clearance checking. Everything appears to fit just fine. Valve lift is a little over 0.800 with checking springs. Should be lower than that with the real springs.

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Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453103
02/17/18 04:54 PM
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Ran the engine on the dyno on Friday. Having some problems with the vacuum pump filling up with oil. It seems that when we changed the rocker arms over to pushrod oiling we ended up sending a ton more oil thru the rocker arms. I'm not sure exactly why, but the oil is now shooting right up the valve cover wall and inside the baffle for the vacuum pump. You can see it in this video: https://youtu.be/p4SO73Xu13c

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453104
02/17/18 04:56 PM
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Here is another video showing a little more of the engine. We only got a couple of pulls in all day and neither one made good power. So I need to re-engineer the vacuum pump system this weekend and we'll try again on Monday.

https://youtu.be/S4AbomE1lis

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453170
02/17/18 07:35 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Do you have any pulls with the current heads/intake/carb with the previous cam and no vacuum pump?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453172
02/17/18 07:40 PM
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Probably, I'd have to look thru the test matrix from the last test. We're basically around the same power level as it was before without the vacuum pump so the new cam isn't making anymore power. Might even be down a little bit of power from the previous cam.

If we can get the vacuum pump setup sorted out then we'll make some pulls on Monday and try advancing the cam and maybe opening up the lash a bit. I think this new cam might be a touch too large for the engine. Or maybe it is just too aggressive. This new cam has very aggressive lobes so maybe the engine doesn't want that.

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453175
02/17/18 07:53 PM
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In general terms, faster is bigger.....as far as how the motor sees it.

At least, that's how I always looked at it.

So....... If you would have thought a "bigger" cam than the previous one would have been better with the motor in its current configuration ...... Then "faster" is a step in that direction.

If you wanted to see if the combo will respond to more (hi lift)area under the curve, without really going bigger....... Then a commensurate reduction in duration would accompany the added rate.

You probably haven't really made any representative pulls yet though, so the jury is still out on the new cam.
It might be safe to say though, that "big gains" aren't in the cards.


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Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453243
02/17/18 10:57 PM
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I know this engine is a little touchy about overcamming it but this new cam is only 1 degree bigger on the rated duration. It is a couple of degrees larger at 200 and has a bunch more lift.

We'll add 3 or 4 thou on the lash and see how it responds. I'm also going to try it 4 degrees advanced. Right now it is straight up at 108.

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453247
02/17/18 11:06 PM
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What RPM is the motor seeing peak HP at?
I had one roller cam motor that would stop gaining HP for three hundred RPM and then take off again and finally peak at 800 RPM higher shock


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453530
02/18/18 04:40 PM
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My “armchair quarterback” response is........I would have installed the new cam at the same c/l as the previous cam.

I watched the video.......and that does look like a ton of oil coming to the top.
Although, in all fairness.......I’ve never run anything with a clear v/c.......so I don’t really have anything to compare to.
It just “seems” like that’s a lot of oil up top.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453711
02/18/18 11:58 PM
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I typically install cams at 4 degrees advanced unless told otherwise. In this case the engineer at Comp who I was working with told me to install the cam straight up.

It seems like an excessive amount of oil to me. Maybe next time I buy pushrods I'll order a set with restrictors to see how it works.

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2453770
02/19/18 02:43 AM
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I’ll be a bit surprised if a little cam advance doesn’t help to some degree.

Though, when the heads have low lift flow as good as TF heads do, it’s easier to open the valve too early.

My starting point still would have been to use the same c/l, just to eliminate the variable.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2454292
02/20/18 12:10 AM
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Advancing the cam 4 degrees added some area under the curve and picked up peak power by a small amount. I'll need to spend some time looking at the data but I think this cam is just a few degrees larger than the engine wants.

I can go back to my 264/268 cam or I could get a smaller version of the new cam with the more aggressive QRI lobes. Haven't decided which way to go yet.

Never did figure out the vacuum pump issue. Appears that the switch to pushrod oiling changed the amount of oil in the valve covers enough that it overwhelmed the baffles. I added a Moroso oil separator tank and that still didn't work. So I need to pull the stuff apart and see if I can figure out what is going on.

Re: 470 dyno test article [Re: AndyF] #2454378
02/20/18 02:18 AM
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Andy, any thoughts on how much the pushrods will need to be restricted? Size of oil holes??

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