470 dyno test article
#2407579
11/22/17 09:59 PM
11/22/17 09:59 PM
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AndyF
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Here is the article from my last round of testing: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/Peak power with the vacuum pump and the Wilson ported intake was 775 hp. That is running unleaded premium with out of box Trick Flow 270 heads. I'm sure that more compression would make more power but we're getting close to the limits of a stock block so no reason to turn up the wick anymore.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2407594
11/22/17 10:45 PM
11/22/17 10:45 PM
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Wookie316
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Great article. I want that Manifold. I’ll trade you my untouched one LOL.
1971 Plum Crazy Super Bee. 572 World Aluminum block with a Cope 727 & Dana 4.10 out back. 9.88 @ 138 with a 1.35 60 NA. Dialed back to 10.0’s. 4000 lbs with me in it.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: birdtracker]
#2407851
11/23/17 02:10 PM
11/23/17 02:10 PM
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AndyF
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Andy: could you supply a part number for this cam? "Comp Cams 264/268 solid roller with HXL and HXX lobes" Thanks Birdtracker It is a custom cam. If you want to duplicate it just ask for 264/268 with HXL and HXX lobes. You'll also need to pick a lobe center.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2407881
11/23/17 03:09 PM
11/23/17 03:09 PM
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cudadon
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Here is the article from my last round of testing: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/Peak power with the vacuum pump and the Wilson ported intake was 775 hp. That is running unleaded premium with out of box Trick Flow 270 heads. I'm sure that more compression would make more power but we're getting close to the limits of a stock block so no reason to turn up the wick anymore. Andy how much vacuum did the dry sump pump pull? Don
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: birdtracker]
#2407883
11/23/17 03:13 PM
11/23/17 03:13 PM
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Streetwize
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True....but how much did the manifold porting cost? or the Dry sump Vaccuum system...or the roller and lifters, or the Pan? I was just stating power to power, but if someone wants to open the discussion up to "Cherry Picking" the costs. Which dyno ready motor cost more for the 775 HP? There was nothing wrong with the Chapman heads...other than the Overpriced MP Marketing. Finally Mopar produced n awesome head out of the box...but they blew it with the exorbinate pricing. The only other "custom" cost vs any other offset intake rocker head (as far as I know) is the $150 billet rocker stands which are arguably well-worth the expense. I think I paid $2400 for my set new but second hand. I mean I get it, there are "promotional considerations" with every new product testing and we're all happy to have solid tech articles to read, but this is Moparts where we should talk "Apples to Apples"....fairly and objectively.
Last edited by Streetwize; 11/24/17 01:27 PM.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: birdtracker]
#2407909
11/23/17 04:16 PM
11/23/17 04:16 PM
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AndyF
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do you know what the lobe center was on the one dynoed? thanks Birdtracker Ground 108, installed 104
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: cudadon]
#2407910
11/23/17 04:17 PM
11/23/17 04:17 PM
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AndyF
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Here is the article from my last round of testing: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/Peak power with the vacuum pump and the Wilson ported intake was 775 hp. That is running unleaded premium with out of box Trick Flow 270 heads. I'm sure that more compression would make more power but we're getting close to the limits of a stock block so no reason to turn up the wick anymore. Andy how much vacuum did the dry sump pump pull? Don Not a lot, somewhere around 10 to 12 inches. Neither the dry sump or the vacuum pump were set up to pull a ton of vacuum.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2407932
11/23/17 05:14 PM
11/23/17 05:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Streetwize
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The Cam in my 517 is also 264/268 on 108, but it's a Bullet Hydraulic Roller, makes mad torque and pulls to 6800+ It's been in the motor 10 years now, trouble free.
Thinking of Switching to a Solid roller just so I can run the BAM lightweight pressure fed lifters, save on some of that valvetrain mass.
Last edited by Streetwize; 11/23/17 05:16 PM.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2408248
11/24/17 02:23 PM
11/24/17 02:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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BradH
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Andy: could you supply a part number for this cam? "Comp Cams 264/268 solid roller with HXL and HXX lobes" Thanks Birdtracker It is a custom cam. If you want to duplicate it just ask for 264/268 with HXL and HXX lobes. You'll also need to pick a lobe center. My suggestion to birdtracker is to contact Dwayne Porter (fast68plymouth) for the cam, especially since he may have a different recommendation for lobes, depending upon the application.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2408472
11/25/17 12:22 AM
11/25/17 12:22 AM
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fast68plymouth
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A 2226B/4134B should be 260/266@ .050
There's usually a few thousand extra $$$$$ to get from 800hp to 900hp.
Of course, "low deck Indy block" doesn't really narrow things down too much. It could be a 451....... Or a 557.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: Alchemi]
#2408633
11/25/17 01:14 PM
11/25/17 01:14 PM
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RAMM
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Just an Idea....
So in a post a year or so ago it was mentioned that someone in the Engine Masters comp had used a windowed block to reduce effects of pumping losses by increasing the cubic volume of the sump area (no vac pumps in engine masters?)
So if using a vac pump, its got to pull vs a set volume, if you could reduce that volume, it would work better?
So if you put a big sealed triangular wedge under the valley cover you could take out a bunch of CI from the internal space of the motor and make the pump work better? That was my build in 2014 and you are correct-No vac pumps in EMC. I agree with your theory about reducing volume the vac pump has to act on. I also know how theories often pan out. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2409185
11/26/17 05:15 PM
11/26/17 05:15 PM
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birdtracker
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2226 is a HXL lobe that is just a few degrees smaller than the lobe I used. Your 4134 exhaust lobe is a different family. That is an RT lobe with 266 duration.
If you replaced your cam with my cam I doubt you would see much difference. Maybe pick up a little power but I don't think it would be worth the hassle.
800 hp with the Trick Flow 270 heads will take some work. With E85 you can run more compression so you'll want to run as much as possible. If it is a race only deal you'll probably want to throw more cam at it than I'm using. Especially if you have more compression. Don't forget to get the intake ported, that is the key to unlocking some power. Andy: a few people have shown interest with this topic in reguards to the article. Am I wrong that the 270 heads with your cam and ported intake made 775 hp or did you use a different head? What compression height and ratio were you using with the J.E pistons? Are these a shelf piston? The pump gas is what really interests me cause alot of us still drive ours. Thanks Birdtracker
Last edited by birdtracker; 11/26/17 05:16 PM.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: viperblue72]
#2409598
11/27/17 02:11 PM
11/27/17 02:11 PM
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AndyF
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Andy, Were any other Camshafts tested during any of the trick flow head tests? I am getting the 270 heads and they are going on a 12:1 511. So I am curious if another 5-10 degrees would be worth it. I have not done any cam testing with the 270 heads. The cam I used for the 270 heads is the one that was best with the 240 heads. I'm pretty sure I can find some more power if I start testing cams. Now that I have the 270 heads and the ported intake I'm sure the engine would respond to a little more area under the curve. I'm kind of busy building the Duster at the moment but if I get a little free time I'll research some cams for this engine and then see if I can get it back on the dyno.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: 383man]
#2409599
11/27/17 02:13 PM
11/27/17 02:13 PM
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AndyF
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Wow Andy you do know how to get awesome power from your Mopars !! Ron Thanks Ron. Not sure I really know in advance how to make power but if you try enough things eventually some stuff works. I chased my tail with rocker arm ratios and cam grinds and crappy intake manifolds and spacers that didn't work and all of that stuff. First pull with the 470 was 620 hp so we've found 150 hp over the past 18 months.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: viperblue72]
#2409611
11/27/17 02:43 PM
11/27/17 02:43 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Andy, Were any other Camshafts tested during any of the trick flow head tests? I am getting the 270 heads and they are going on a 12:1 511. So I am curious if another 5-10 degrees would be worth it. I'm sure that motor combo could benefit from more duration, provided the car has the right pieces to make use of it. Ron trick flow site advertises these numbers ootb intake .100- 72 .200- 154 .300- 230 .400- 288 .500- 322 .600- 343 .700- 352
exhaust .100-58 .200-130 .300-186 .400-222 .500-243 .600-253 .700-262 Exhaust numbers are with a flow tube attached.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2409690
11/27/17 05:21 PM
11/27/17 05:21 PM
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HotRodDave
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Wow Andy you do know how to get awesome power from your Mopars !! Ron Thanks Ron. Not sure I really know in advance how to make power but if you try enough things eventually some stuff works. I chased my tail with rocker arm ratios and cam grinds and crappy intake manifolds and spacers that didn't work and all of that stuff. First pull with the 470 was 620 hp so we've found 150 hp over the past 18 months. Nice work, thats what should happen when one keeps testing and testing and re-testing stuff. I think a lot of guys on here would be supprised how much they could gain from trying some different manifolds, carbs, spacers, rocer geometry, rocker ratio... vs the typical just throw more cylinder head, cam, and compression at it.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: dogdays]
#2409774
11/27/17 08:40 PM
11/27/17 08:40 PM
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Cab_Burge
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When I first heard of the oil starvation problems with motors running vacuum pumps I thought it was due to tight of clearances on the wrist pins to rod and pistons due to most pin oiling being splash oiling. The oil pump is a suction pump also but it forces liquid through a restrictor, the engine oiling system and has a high pressure bypass system built into the pump so the motor will have a maximum oil pressure at the higher RPM. The oil pump has to battle the negative pressures above the oil level to suck oil into it, or does it Using a vacuum pump does allow thinner rings to seal better which allows the motor to make more power with less oil contamination in the combustion chambers As well as stop some of those pesky tiny oil leaks
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2409810
11/27/17 09:34 PM
11/27/17 09:34 PM
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tex013
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Years ago I had a customer bring me his 1968 383 C.I. Charger that he had put a set of after market cast aluminum valve covers on with the stock type PVC and twist on oil filler cap with no vent. It would start and idle fine for a short while(1 1/2 to 2 1/2 minutes) and then slow down by several hundred RPM, the motor was sealed up tight enough that the PCV was making a vacuum in the motor after it suck the pressure out of the motor I put a breather cap on it and he was happy after that A vacuum pump will do the same thing on a leak free motor The pumping action of the pistons and rods going up and down and ring blow by will cause crankcase pressure, especially at high RPM That's funny Cab , 20 or so years ago I had similar issues on a customers stock 308ci Holden , after 20 minutes the motor would stall . Took a little while to work that one out , vented oil filler cap solved it . Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: viperblue72]
#2410050
11/28/17 11:52 AM
11/28/17 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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383man
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Ron trick flow site advertises these numbers ootb intake .100- 72 .200- 154 .300- 230 .400- 288 .500- 322 .600- 343 .700- 352
exhaust .100-58 .200-130 .300-186 .400-222 .500-243 .600-253 .700-262 Wow thats some nice #'s. I believe they do come CNC ported right out of the box ? Thanks Viperblue72. Ron
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2410052
11/28/17 11:54 AM
11/28/17 11:54 AM
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383man
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Wow Andy you do know how to get awesome power from your Mopars !! Ron Thanks Ron. Not sure I really know in advance how to make power but if you try enough things eventually some stuff works. I chased my tail with rocker arm ratios and cam grinds and crappy intake manifolds and spacers that didn't work and all of that stuff. First pull with the 470 was 620 hp so we've found 150 hp over the past 18 months. And us Mopar people do thank you as you do alot of work in testing parts and letting us know what works in many combo's and myself I thank you. I really enjoy reading about your dyno' runs. Ron
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: A990]
#2410131
11/28/17 02:28 PM
11/28/17 02:28 PM
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Thumperdart
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I modified a PCV so it would flow slightly under vacuum and then put it on the vent side. I now have 2ish inches of crankcase vacuum and it has made a world of difference in throttle response and power/mpg.
I think the PCV has been on the wrong end of the crankcase vent sequence. Can you explain this "wrong side" theory please...........
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: A990]
#2411136
11/30/17 03:46 AM
11/30/17 03:46 AM
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Cab_Burge
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A PCV is a one way valve right? The spring shoves it closed with no vacuum and opens with around 2 + inches of vacuum, correct? If you apply vacuum to the ball side of the valve doesn't that suck it closed?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2411165
11/30/17 09:38 AM
11/30/17 09:38 AM
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A PCV is a one way valve right? The spring shoves it closed with no vacuum and opens with around 2 + inches of vacuum, correct? If you apply vacuum to the ball side of the valve doesn't that suck it closed? Cab I removed the idle circuit ball, and the cruise circuit spring. Vacuum closes the cruise ball, and can only flow through the idle side. When CC goes positive, the valve can fully vent into the aircleaner. I did it with the Wagner adjustable PCV. It works really good. You have a PM
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2426175
12/31/17 02:31 AM
12/31/17 02:31 AM
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ccdave
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Have the new grind from Comp for this engine. They stepped it up with some new QRI and HXX HL lobes so now it is very aggressive. They also sent me some new dual conical springs to try. These springs are pretty trick. They are lightweight and they don't have the friction of an interference fit damper. I'll get the new parts installed on the 470 and back up on the dyno within the next few weeks. Should be interesting. Oh boy, conical springs A big no no here Those springs are very nice 👍🇺🇸
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: cryplydog]
#2426182
12/31/17 03:02 AM
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AndyF
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Andy,are the retainers Ti or tool steel and do you know the gram weight? Thanks The retainers I have are tool steel. Comp has Ti retainers for these springs but didn't think they were needed for my combo. This engine only spins to 7000.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: ccdave]
#2427503
01/02/18 12:34 AM
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Not only do they save weight, they also help cancel valve train harmonics, require less pressure to control the valves than traditional duel springs and are made from better material. Yep, I'm looking forward to this round of dyno testing just to see if the new cam design and the new springs make any difference. I'm hoping we'll pick up 10 or 15 hp but it might not be that big of a difference.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2432216
01/10/18 02:58 PM
01/10/18 02:58 PM
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cudadon
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The conical springs save about 1 pound of weight over the existing dual springs. Also, the conical springs get rid of the interference fit damper. The damper in my existing springs is showing a clear wear pattern after just a few dyno pulls. Those wear marks took power to make and the ground up steel went into the oil system..... Along with taking power to make the witness marks, it created HEAT in the valve train. Andy this should be an interesting test! Thanks for your info! Don
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: 383man]
#2433785
01/13/18 07:40 AM
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Wow Andy you do know how to get awesome power from your Mopars !! Ron Thanks Ron. Not sure I really know in advance how to make power but if you try enough things eventually some stuff works. I chased my tail with rocker arm ratios and cam grinds and crappy intake manifolds and spacers that didn't work and all of that stuff. First pull with the 470 was 620 hp so we've found 150 hp over the past 18 months. And us Mopar people do thank you as you do alot of work in testing parts and letting us know what works in many combo's and myself I thank you. I really enjoy reading about your dyno' runs. Ron I second that.
1969 Dart GTS 340 1969 Super Bee X9 N-96 1969 Coronet R/T X9 N-96 2015 Dodge Dart GT 2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn. Looking for the original block for my Bee. The last 4 are 7449
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2435143
01/15/18 07:08 PM
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fast68plymouth
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It's too bad the pressures aren't more in line with the advertised specs. I was looking forward to seeing if that spring design could really keep everything under control with only 150 on the seat.
At 205/660, while that's still less than I would normally use with that new cam, it's not as low as its "supposed" to be.
But if all goes well...... I could see trying them in something.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2436100
01/17/18 01:36 AM
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ccdave
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Yeah I think they are a great spring, only issue is that they are little on the expensive side. I don't fully understand the difference between 150 in the catalog and 205 when measured. I think it is due to the step on the locator and the retainer but Comp should know about that.
Comp does say that conical springs can be run with much less pressure than normal straight springs but they don't provide any more guidance than that. The engineer I talked to said these springs would work just fine with this cam profile but he didn't say why he felt that way. I know they have done a lot of Spintron testing with these conical springs so I'm guessing that someone knows what works and what doesn't but they didn't pass that knowledge on to me! Still a lot of uncertainty and doubts with both beehive and conical springs. I have seen these new era springs being used on LS platforms making north of 700 horsepower with ZERO issues. I hope the springs perform well for you in that if they exceed your expectations some of the uncertainty and doubts will slowly disappear because these new spring designs are way better than traditional dual springs.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2453170
02/17/18 07:35 PM
02/17/18 07:35 PM
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fast68plymouth
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Do you have any pulls with the current heads/intake/carb with the previous cam and no vacuum pump?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2453175
02/17/18 07:53 PM
02/17/18 07:53 PM
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fast68plymouth
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In general terms, faster is bigger.....as far as how the motor sees it.
At least, that's how I always looked at it.
So....... If you would have thought a "bigger" cam than the previous one would have been better with the motor in its current configuration ...... Then "faster" is a step in that direction.
If you wanted to see if the combo will respond to more (hi lift)area under the curve, without really going bigger....... Then a commensurate reduction in duration would accompany the added rate.
You probably haven't really made any representative pulls yet though, so the jury is still out on the new cam. It might be safe to say though, that "big gains" aren't in the cards.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2453247
02/17/18 11:06 PM
02/17/18 11:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,095 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Bend,OR USA
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What RPM is the motor seeing peak HP at? I had one roller cam motor that would stop gaining HP for three hundred RPM and then take off again and finally peak at 800 RPM higher
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2453530
02/18/18 04:40 PM
02/18/18 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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My “armchair quarterback” response is........I would have installed the new cam at the same c/l as the previous cam.
I watched the video.......and that does look like a ton of oil coming to the top. Although, in all fairness.......I’ve never run anything with a clear v/c.......so I don’t really have anything to compare to. It just “seems” like that’s a lot of oil up top.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2453770
02/19/18 02:43 AM
02/19/18 02:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I’ll be a bit surprised if a little cam advance doesn’t help to some degree.
Though, when the heads have low lift flow as good as TF heads do, it’s easier to open the valve too early.
My starting point still would have been to use the same c/l, just to eliminate the variable.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2455046
02/21/18 01:05 PM
02/21/18 01:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I think there might be "some" gains to be had by (as Grumpy said in his 1975 SBC book) "fiddling with the cam". But, the fact that the motor didn't respond at all to a pretty big swing in rocker ratio changes....... I don't think there's any "easy 25hp" to be gleaned from only swapping the cam at this point.
I'd be looking towards the EM builds for inspiration as far as the cam goes.
Btw...... Did you mess with the lash?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: mopar dave]
#2455149
02/21/18 04:27 PM
02/21/18 04:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Thats the test i would like to see results with. LSA. You can probably find a good number of LSA-type tests searching online. No real mystery, other than making sure the LSA, duration & lift actually suit the combination. Well, maybe it's a mystery to a lot of people, still.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2455582
02/22/18 01:40 PM
02/22/18 01:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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TF 270's are fully ported OOTB.
Sure, some may be porting them more, but there are no "unported" TF 270's.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2455594
02/22/18 01:57 PM
02/22/18 01:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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So, peak to peak, what was the difference between the two cams?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: mopar dave]
#2455598
02/22/18 02:08 PM
02/22/18 02:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
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... Seems 108 works pretty good on a small block. Not trying to bust your chops, but 108 works where 108 is the right LSA for the combination, regardless of small block, big block, or whatever. Four of my last five BB cams have all been 108, because that's been a good choice for those combinations. If I made significant changes, I'd expect the LSA and/or duration might need to change, too. I've got a nice 109 LSA solid roller that I never tried because I didn't have the right rocker ratios on hand to show its true potential. That cam grinder wanted to put it on 110, but we split the difference on his preference for 110 and mine for 108. ... I would like to see first hand what Andy finds with that BB. I can't ready Andy's mind (nor my wife's, even though she thinks I'm supposed to be able to), but I suspect anyone who wants to send him a $1000 to offset parts / teardown / dyno expenses might "influence" what he's interested or willing to test. I've got enough first-hand experience now from multiple dyno sessions to know that stuff gets spendy fast, especially if it turns into more of an R&D session than a straight test & tune of a single combination.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2455614
02/22/18 02:33 PM
02/22/18 02:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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So, peak to peak, what was the difference between the two cams? Turns out I don't have a clean A to B test with the same exact parts on both engine due to the problems I had with the vacuum pump. I wasn't able to run the QRI cam with a vacuum pump since I had issues with it so all of my current testing is with breathers. The engine is making right around 750 hp with the QRI cam using breathers. I made 775 hp with the HXL cam using a vacuum pump and Wilson Indy. I made 745 hp with the HXL cam using breathers but with the M1 Wilson intake. (std port intake) I never tested the HXL cam with breathers and the Indy Wilson intake so I don't have that as a baseline. My guess is that the HXL cam with breathers and the Indy Wilson intake would hit 755 or 760 hp in an A to B test but I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong. Another thing is the weather. The last few days have had cold air so the correction factor is negative. Even thought the correction factor is only a few percent different than the previous tests, that is enough difference to throw some doubt on the comparison.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: BradH]
#2455624
02/22/18 02:47 PM
02/22/18 02:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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... Seems 108 works pretty good on a small block. Not trying to bust your chops, but 108 works where 108 is the right LSA for the combination, regardless of small block, big block, or whatever. Four of my last five BB cams have all been 108, because that's been a good choice for those combinations. If I made significant changes, I'd expect the LSA and/or duration might need to change, too. I've got a nice 109 LSA solid roller that I never tried because I didn't have the right rocker ratios on hand to show its true potential. That cam grinder wanted to put it on 110, but we split the difference on his preference for 110 and mine for 108. ... I would like to see first hand what Andy finds with that BB. I can't ready Andy's mind (nor my wife's, even though she thinks I'm supposed to be able to), but I suspect anyone who wants to send him a $1000 to offset parts / teardown / dyno expenses might "influence" what he's interested or willing to test. I've got enough first-hand experience now from multiple dyno sessions to know that stuff gets spendy fast, especially if it turns into more of an R&D session than a straight test & tune of a single combination. Yeah no doubt about that. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I have the resources to do this type of testing but still there are limits. I might have the time to dink around with engine testing but people around me don't have the time so I have to respectful of them. The guy who runs the dyno has to make a living and he can't just play engines with me all day since he needs to get work out the door in order to feed his family. Given that, I can only squeak in some dyno testing "fun" about 4 or 5 times a year. So I have to pick and choose what I'll test.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2455636
02/22/18 02:57 PM
02/22/18 02:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Did you A/B the vacuum pump last time, so you have a pretty good idea on what that was worth?
Sounds like you're thinking 10-15hp.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: BradH]
#2455710
02/22/18 05:10 PM
02/22/18 05:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,031 Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave
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master
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Posts: 8,031
Mt Morris Michigan
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David Vizard has a graph for selecting lobe sep angles. He says its the best way to do it as he finds more power in big blocks than most anyone else. I have never seen anyone use it. Looking at his graph shows my 511 would need a lob sep of 100*. I have never seen anyone use a cam with those kind of lobe sep angles. Anyone know if Vizards gragh is BS or is there some validity to it. I am assuming his engines are race only.
Last edited by mopar dave; 02/22/18 05:12 PM.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: mopar dave]
#2455757
02/22/18 07:03 PM
02/22/18 07:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
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Pattison Texas
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David Vizard has a graph for selecting lobe sep angles. He says its the best way to do it as he finds more power in big blocks than most anyone else. I have never seen anyone use it. Looking at his graph shows my 511 would need a lob sep of 100*. I have never seen anyone use a cam with those kind of lobe sep angles. Anyone know if Vizards gragh is BS or is there some validity to it. I am assuming his engines are race only. are you talking LSA or LCA ? two different things .
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: mopar dave]
#2455782
02/22/18 07:56 PM
02/22/18 07:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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David Vizard has a graph for selecting lobe sep angles. He says its the best way to do it as he finds more power in big blocks than most anyone else. I have never seen anyone use it. Looking at his graph shows my 511 would need a lob sep of 100*. I have never seen anyone use a cam with those kind of lobe sep angles. Anyone know if Vizards gragh is BS or is there some validity to it. I am assuming his engines are race only. There have been some very long threads on SpeedTalk about Vizard's LSA chart. Most engine builders think he is nuts although not everyone. I think the trick is that Vizard's chart was really only designed for 23 degree head SBC engines but I'm not sure. I do know that if you follow his advice you end up with cams that seem very strange and the cores might not even exist to make them. However, as Dwayne hinted at, some of the EMC guys had success running a super narrow LSA. I recall engines with 99, 100 and 101 lobe angles. That kind of stuff is way off the chart in my world. I used to have an old Crower cam that was 103 or something like that. I never ran it so now idea how well it worked. It must have worked at some point for someone though. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this engine. I might just put my old cam back in it or I might try one of these new lobes that Comp has released. The DGO 14669 looks like it would work on the intake for my engine or perhaps the DSP 12177. I think the DSS lobe might be pushing the lift just a tad too far.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: mopar dave]
#2455794
02/22/18 08:36 PM
02/22/18 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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... My 410 that came apart on the dyno was a real good education of the expenses of this hobby. About a $5000 education. Ouch. Sorry to hear that...
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: krautrock]
#2455797
02/22/18 08:44 PM
02/22/18 08:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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It's not as simple as they make it out to be, but it's better than some crap I've seen published on the subject. Many years ago the late Joe Sherman (who only recently passed away) had an article in Car Craft or Hot Rod where he did a 106 / 108 / 110 LSA comparison on a fairly hot (close to 600 HP) SBC 23* build with a solid flat-tappet cam. The 106 made more power & torque everywhere except the last couple of hundred RPM. The 110 never made as much anywhere as the 106; the 108 was the cam that made a little bit more than the 106 only at the very top of the RPM range. It was valid for that specific build, but the YMMV caveat always comes into play.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: BradH]
#2455808
02/22/18 08:57 PM
02/22/18 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
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Canton, Ohio
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It's not as simple as they make it out to be, but it's better than some crap I've seen published on the subject. Many years ago the late Joe Sherman (who only recently passed away) had an article in Car Craft or Hot Rod where he did a 106 / 108 / 110 LSA comparison on a fairly hot (close to 600 HP) SBC 23* build with a solid flat-tappet cam. The 106 made more power & torque everywhere except the last couple of hundred RPM. The 110 never made as much anywhere as the 106; the 108 was the cam that made a little bit more than the 106 only at the very top of the RPM range. It was valid for that specific build, but the YMMV caveat always comes into play. You should always cam for the build, but with that said. I think one of the reasons the old MP .590 does so well for A lot of people Even to this Day, is its 106 LSA, and its 271 @ .050. The 106 LSA helps in the lower torque range, and the 271 @ .050 gives it some upper HP range. A pretty broad range race cam IMO. Ive even heard some early racers refer the Mp 590 cam torque cam compared to others in the race environment.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: BradH]
#2455849
02/22/18 10:11 PM
02/22/18 10:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this engine. I might just put my old cam back in it... There's my suggestion... but you have more time & $ than I do at this point. It is a spare engine so I'm not in any hurry to figure it out. I can leave it sit until I come up with another idea.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2455854
02/22/18 10:26 PM
02/22/18 10:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,853 Pattison Texas
CSK
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master
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The thing about a wide lsa cam is they retard the intake lobe, & that will affect low end TQ, I have advanced a wide 112 lsa cam from 111 Intake LCA to 106 & it pick up lots of low end & still pulled on the top end, yes this was tested on a dyno.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2455855
02/22/18 10:35 PM
02/22/18 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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master
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Canton, Ohio
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I've read that article a few times and I think it needs some editing for clarity. I don't think the author ever says how the cams were installed. Were they all installed straight up? He also doesn't talk about the big effect that LSA can have on valve to piston clearance. And I think some of his conclusions are wrong. He says the 101 LSA cam has a wider powerband but I think that is wrong. Looks to me like the 101 cam falls off faster than the others. The 101 does Fall off faster at the Top of the rpm, past 5600. I guess it depends on where you start and stop your power band measurements. If you look at his dyno graphs, the 101 LSA did have the Wider Stronger power band up to 5600 rpm Now if you compared the 101 LSA from say 5000 to 6500, clearly the other two cams had the wider power band. In this case, if you had a 5000 stall vert, the wider LSA cams would be the better choice. A 4000 stall vert, probably the 101, just by the visual of the graph. Didn't spec the numbers out. 1500 vert, the 101 Blows the wider LSA cams away. With that said, wouldn't want the 101 LSA cam in my race car. Edit, And Dave, yes I have the specs for the MP 590. I will post them up for you later.
Last edited by Sport440; 02/22/18 10:41 PM.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: mopar dave]
#2455891
02/22/18 11:49 PM
02/22/18 11:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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master
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Canton, Ohio
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Do you have all the specs of the .590 cam for BB? Open/close and lift both valves? Some measure the cam at 271 @ .050, mine measured 272 @ .050, that makes the math more simple. But, for Strait up at a 106 ICL --------open------ close------- int: 30* BTDC, 62* ABDC exh: 62* BBDC, 30* ATDC But, as MP suggests a 104 ICL -------open------ close------- int: 32* BTDC, 60* ABDC exh: 64* BBDC, 28* ATDC But, Racers in the know, set it around a 100 ICL -------open------ close------- int: 36* BTDC, 56* ABDC exh: 68* BBDC, 24* ATDC See how Strait up works with symmetrical cams. With the Piston ATDC, the cams intake and exhaust lobes are centered as well between Max lift so the opening and closing numbers events match but on opposite sides of the pistons TDC
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: BradH]
#2455909
02/23/18 12:28 AM
02/23/18 12:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this engine. I might just put my old cam back in it... There's my suggestion... but you have more time & $ than I do at this point. One thing I could do that might make sense would be to get another 264/268 cam ground but on a different LSA. Maybe tighten it up to 106 and see what happens. That way most of the variables would be controlled. Not sure it would worth the time and effort to do that test, but it would be a logical thing to do.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2455979
02/23/18 03:18 AM
02/23/18 03:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this engine. I might just put my old cam back in it... There's my suggestion... but you have more time & $ than I do at this point. One thing I could do that might make sense would be to get another 264/268 cam ground but on a different LSA. Maybe tighten it up to 106 and see what happens. That way most of the variables would be controlled. Not sure it would worth the time and effort to do that test, but it would be a logical thing to do. You can do it for fun, but at the HP levels that you have reached, a 106 LSA would only knock that down quite abit. So no, I wouldn't bother. But, I would like to say thanks for all of the testing and Sharing you have done on this thread.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2456030
02/23/18 10:39 AM
02/23/18 10:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this engine. I might just put my old cam back in it... There's my suggestion... but you have more time & $ than I do at this point. One thing I could do that might make sense would be to get another 264/268 cam ground but on a different LSA. Maybe tighten it up to 106 and see what happens. That way most of the variables would be controlled. Not sure it would worth the time and effort to do that test, but it would be a logical thing to do. I suppose it makes sense to ask where you're looking to see improvements over the 264/268 on 108...
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: BradH]
#2456109
02/23/18 01:44 PM
02/23/18 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
OP
I Win
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989
Oregon
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I'm not sure what I'm going to do with this engine. I might just put my old cam back in it... There's my suggestion... but you have more time & $ than I do at this point. One thing I could do that might make sense would be to get another 264/268 cam ground but on a different LSA. Maybe tighten it up to 106 and see what happens. That way most of the variables would be controlled. Not sure it would worth the time and effort to do that test, but it would be a logical thing to do. I suppose it makes sense to ask where you're looking to see improvements over the 264/268 on 108... All I care about is 4000 to 7000 rpm and I'll give up some lower end to raise the peak if I have to. Although that seems to be a tricky deal. Common theory is that a bigger cam will trade low end for top end but it doesn't seem to work that way in an engine like this. Too big of a cam just kills the power everywhere.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2456119
02/23/18 02:05 PM
02/23/18 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094 central texas
krautrock
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
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I've read that article a few times and I think it needs some editing for clarity. I don't think the author ever says how the cams were installed. Were they all installed straight up? He also doesn't talk about the big effect that LSA can have on valve to piston clearance. And I think some of his conclusions are wrong. He says the 101 LSA cam has a wider powerband but I think that is wrong. Looks to me like the 101 cam falls off faster than the others. yeah, i would've liked to know where they were installed. could the 113 lsa cam be installed advanced a little to bring cranking psi up and pickup the low end quicker? my main interest in this is I want to build a mostly street driven low deck 451 (with trick flow heads probably) and i'm thinking a cam around 112 lsa (similar to the MP 528 solid) to try to clean up the idle and low rpm cruise range some... and then, with great heads does the the wider LSA even matter as much. I remember there was a thread here about LSA (i think) and Monte Smith seemed to like a wider LSA if the heads were good.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: krautrock]
#2456177
02/23/18 03:13 PM
02/23/18 03:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I remember there was a thread here about LSA (i think) and Monte Smith seemed to like a wider LSA if the heads were good. Monte, along with some others on here, built/build serious sh!t with mega-flow heads, high CR and/or power adders, and comparatively narrow usable power ranges at high(er) RPM. When you're flying at that altitude, the "right" LSAs are in a different range than what Joe Average needs... IMO. Junk like mine w/ moderate cubes, semi-pump gas CR, a lower RPM limit and comparatively small-port & limited-flow heads doesn't necessarily see improvements from wide(r) LSAs. This is one of those topics that I've seen David Vizard and other established engine builders having to agree to disagree on, 'cuz DV seems to lean towards as tight an LSA as possible on builds that the others just shake their heads at. "They" will say 110 or 112, and he'll say 105 or 106. He's got his methodologies, but as Andy pointed out, they're far from universally accepted. My own tests years ago on a much milder combination than I have now didn't pan out like I'd expected. Three SFT cams dynoed on a pump-gas 440 making in the low-to-mid 500s HP: - 251/255 on 108 - 254/254 on 108 - 255/263 on 110 For THAT COMBINATION, the 255/263 on 110 was the worst across the board. The 251/255 x 108 and 254/254 x 108 were very close with the best peak #s coming from the 254/254. However, the 251/255 revved out much farther before valve float kicked in w/ the 254/254. I went with the 254/254, but on the track when I ran shorter tires (275/60R15 drag radials vs my 29" slicks), I was getting into valve float on the big end and killing my MPH. In retrospect the smaller cam might have worked better overall in the car and not have beaten up the valve job as quickly. None of this stuff is a "for sure" thing. And even the best educated(?) guesses of the results sometimes miss the mark by a pretty large margin vs what the real world shows. OK, I've probably broken my soap box from standing on it so long. We now resume your regularly scheduled programming...
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2456246
02/23/18 05:22 PM
02/23/18 05:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,491
So. Burlington, Vt.
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LSA........ Definitely one of those "it depends" things.
In many(most?) applications its usually a compromise based on a multitude of factors that aren't related to making the most power possible.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: PorkyPig]
#2456390
02/23/18 11:35 PM
02/23/18 11:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,095 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,095
Bend,OR USA
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I use to use Isky cams in all my builds, they had a grind called 590/616 solid lifter race cam for Mopar wedge motors that work very well in stock stroke 440 mild (under 550 HP)bracket motors, that grind was on a 104 LSA and I would normally install it from 100 to 103 ILC depending on automatic trans or stick shift trans. I was lead to believe back in the early 1960s that the LSA, no matter the motor, determined the power band RPM limits, closer was lower RPM at peak power and wider was higher RPM at peak I gladly bought AndyF Crower 105 degree LSA solid roller SS cam that he didn't try in his testing, I also bought another Crower close LSA from another member on here who lives in Boise, ID. that was ground on 104 LSA, I will gladly use both of those cams in one of my future pump gas street and strip builds that will make over 600 HP, maybe even one for myself I've use other brand of solid lifter cams ground on closer(108 or less) LSA, one was ground on a 101 LSA, for N/A BB Mopars wedge motors with stock type 440 heads and all of them worked fine I've read many discussions on here about LSA on BB Mopar wedge motors and every body has there own favorites, me included On big headed motors, CNC C440-1 heads and bigger, wider LSA on long durations (285 degrees+ @.050)works fine, on stock headed motors I like closer, 108 and closer better LSA You also need to remember the closer the LSA the less manifold vacuum you will have with the same duration camshafts and the you get a rougher, choppier idle with closer LSA and more bottom end and a lower peak HP RPM
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/23/18 11:38 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: BradH]
#2456650
02/24/18 02:00 PM
02/24/18 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,982 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,982
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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I remember there was a thread here about LSA (i think) and Monte Smith seemed to like a wider LSA if the heads were good. Monte, along with some others on here, built/build serious sh!t with mega-flow heads, high CR and/or power adders, and comparatively narrow usable power ranges at high(er) RPM. When you're flying at that altitude, the "right" LSAs are in a different range than what Joe Average needs... IMO. Junk like mine w/ moderate cubes, semi-pump gas CR, a lower RPM limit and comparatively small-port & limited-flow heads doesn't necessarily see improvements from wide(r) LSAs. This is one of those topics that I've seen David Vizard and other established engine builders having to agree to disagree on, 'cuz DV seems to lean towards as tight an LSA as possible on builds that the others just shake their heads at. "They" will say 110 or 112, and he'll say 105 or 106. He's got his methodologies, but as Andy pointed out, they're far from universally accepted. My own tests years ago on a much milder combination than I have now didn't pan out like I'd expected. Three SFT cams dynoed on a pump-gas 440 making in the low-to-mid 500s HP: - 251/255 on 108 - 254/254 on 108 - 255/263 on 110 For THAT COMBINATION, the 255/263 on 110 was the worst across the board. The 251/255 x 108 and 254/254 x 108 were very close with the best peak #s coming from the 254/254. However, the 251/255 revved out much farther before valve float kicked in w/ the 254/254. I went with the 254/254, but on the track when I ran shorter tires (275/60R15 drag radials vs my 29" slicks), I was getting into valve float on the big end and killing my MPH. In retrospect the smaller cam might have worked better overall in the car and not have beaten up the valve job as quickly. None of this stuff is a "for sure" thing. And even the best educated(?) guesses of the results sometimes miss the mark by a pretty large margin vs what the real world shows. OK, I've probably broken my soap box from standing on it so long. We now resume your regularly scheduled programming... Brad, if you look at the opening closing points of the 255 vs the 254 cam, and were to install them both at say 108, the only event that changes is the exhaust opening discounting the ondegree difference in intake timing. Maybe your motor had great exhaust ports , which makes me wonder how your motor would have responded to something like a 252/248/107 or 106 lsa cam
Last edited by gregsdart; 02/24/18 02:02 PM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: gregsdart]
#2456862
02/24/18 07:02 PM
02/24/18 07:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Brad, if you look at the opening closing points of the 255 vs the 254 cam, and were to install them both at say 108, the only event that changes is the exhaust opening discounting the ondegree difference in intake timing. Maybe your motor had great exhaust ports , which makes me wonder how your motor would have responded to something like a 252/248/107 or 106 lsa cam If I wanted to build something similar today, I wouldn't use any of the cams that I tested or actually ran in the car. But that's because I'd look for lobes that would be easier on the valve train due to street use. However, the duration & LSA would likely still be very close to the 254/254 on 108.
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Re: 470 dyno test article
[Re: AndyF]
#2468486
03/19/18 10:18 AM
03/19/18 10:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,031 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,031
Shelby Twp. Mi
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So, peak to peak, what was the difference between the two cams? Turns out I don't have a clean A to B test with the same exact parts on both engine due to the problems I had with the vacuum pump. I wasn't able to run the QRI cam with a vacuum pump since I had issues with it so all of my current testing is with breathers. The engine is making right around 750 hp with the QRI cam using breathers. I made 775 hp with the HXL cam using a vacuum pump and Wilson Indy. I made 745 hp with the HXL cam using breathers but with the M1 Wilson intake. (std port intake) I never tested the HXL cam with breathers and the Indy Wilson intake so I don't have that as a baseline. My guess is that the HXL cam with breathers and the Indy Wilson intake would hit 755 or 760 hp in an A to B test but I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong. Another thing is the weather. The last few days have had cold air so the correction factor is negative. Even thought the correction factor is only a few percent different than the previous tests, that is enough difference to throw some doubt on the comparison. Overall a great post AndyF! The one assumption I'm not to sure about is the tangible power 'gained' by less spring. I went back and quoted this piece to try to capture the power outputs of each combo comparatively. Although the cam may be too big, I don't see it being that far off from the last in performance IF there is a measureable 'gain' in power due to less component friction. That being said however, I feel if there is evidences of good valve control, there are many good reasons to use this type of spring over a conventional spring.
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