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'04 5.7 with '09-up heads? #2403895
11/15/17 11:24 AM
11/15/17 11:24 AM
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Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Online content OP
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I have a friend w/ a 2004 5.7 hemi that dropped a valve seat and chewed a cylinder.
He's looking to get a replacement motor, but doesn't want to run into this issue again. I know the early hemis are known to drop seats, but apparently they fixed this issue in the 2009 models?

What is involved in using the '09-up heads on the earlier motor? I've been told I'd need to get the valve covers and coil packs for the newer heads. Any other differences?
How much does the compression increase doing this swap?

Would it be easier (or even possible) to use the complete 2009-up motor in the older vehicle?


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2403977
11/15/17 02:46 PM
11/15/17 02:46 PM
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MD
RTSE4ME Offline
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You'll also need pushrods, and intake manifold.
compression 12-12.5 on a stock piston 5.7

Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2404077
11/15/17 06:05 PM
11/15/17 06:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,319
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda Online content OP
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OK, so the compression makes this swap not feasible for a daily driver w/ no other mods.

Anyone know if the newer motor is a drop in for the old one?

Or just get another old style motor and hope the seats stay put?


CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2404142
11/15/17 07:37 PM
11/15/17 07:37 PM
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Posts: 12,406
Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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I have worked on a bunch of these engines and never seen a seat drop unless it overheated first.

The later heads bolt on with pushrods being the minimum extra parts needed. The intake and ex manifolds are good to do at the same time.

I came up with 11.5 when I actually CCd everything I had sitting here. That is only a little more than an apache 392 so I think it could live on premium. You can try thicker head gaskets but in my experiance and many others the higher quench distance is more likely to cause detonation than the higher static compression. The late hemi chamber is very detonation resistant and the plastic intakes keep a lot of heat out of the air charge. All this adds up to a very compression tolerant design. The extra compression will improve MPG some and help offset the cost of premium though probably not the entire cost difference. You could upgrade to a 6.1 cam and also bleed off a little compression for cheap as well as help hp.

The short block is diffent enough to make swapping the short block not worth it, the VVT uses a different timing cover and will make some headaches in the swap.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: HotRodDave] #2404208
11/15/17 09:36 PM
11/15/17 09:36 PM
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Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
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Originally Posted By HotRodDave
I have worked on a bunch of these engines and never seen a seat drop unless it overheated first.

The later heads bolt on with pushrods being the minimum extra parts needed. The intake and ex manifolds are good to do at the same time.

I came up with 11.5 when I actually CCd everything I had sitting here. That is only a little more than an apache 392 so I think it could live on premium. You can try thicker head gaskets but in my experiance and many others the higher quench distance is more likely to cause detonation than the higher static compression. The late hemi chamber is very detonation resistant and the plastic intakes keep a lot of heat out of the air charge. All this adds up to a very compression tolerant design. The extra compression will improve MPG some and help offset the cost of premium though probably not the entire cost difference. You could upgrade to a 6.1 cam and also bleed off a little compression for cheap as well as help hp.

The short block is diffent enough to make swapping the short block not worth it, the VVT uses a different timing cover and will make some headaches in the swap.


What if you used a complete Eagle engine for the respective chassis (LX for LX, truck for truck)? The LX looks like it would be a drop in physically. You'd have to lock out the cam. What about the sensors? Are they the same/able to be swapped over?

I have a DD 05 Magnum RT that I would like to play with when it's DD duties are done. Pondered the Eagle head swap but by the time you're done buying the parts, you aren't far off from a complete Eagle engine

Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2404276
11/15/17 11:30 PM
11/15/17 11:30 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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locking the cam is super simple and no special parts or kit needed. I don't know if the cam phaser will fit behind the earlier timing cover.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: HotRodDave] #2404614
11/16/17 08:45 PM
11/16/17 08:45 PM
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Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
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The early cover doesn't work on the vvt engines, phaser hit the cover and the sensor will be in the wrong spot


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Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2405167
11/17/17 08:30 PM
11/17/17 08:30 PM
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Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
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I’m talking a complete engine swap, a complete Eagle engine, you’d use the Eagle front cover and accessories. Lock the cam and swap over the necessary sensors but use all the Eagle stuff you can

Last edited by WO23Coronet; 11/17/17 09:00 PM.
Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2405782
11/19/17 02:32 AM
11/19/17 02:32 AM
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Pittsburgh,PA
RTSrunner Offline
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Doesn't the tone ring have a different tooth count on the later engine vs the early gen3? Requiring the crank to be pulled to change.

Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: RTSrunner] #2407103
11/21/17 11:23 PM
11/21/17 11:23 PM
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Mid West US
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Originally Posted By RTSrunner
Doesn't the tone ring have a different tooth count on the later engine vs the early gen3? Requiring the crank to be pulled to change.


Correct 03-08 5.7 have a 32 tooth and 09-up have a 58 tooth. They cant be swapped out without rebalancing the crank either. It's not an easy swap I believe the accessories have been moved a little so your alternator, AC compressor, etc.. won't line up.

Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: WO23Coronet] #2407256
11/22/17 10:28 AM
11/22/17 10:28 AM
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Posts: 1,400
Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
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Originally Posted By WO23Coronet
I’m talking a complete engine swap, a complete Eagle engine, you’d use the Eagle front cover and accessories. Lock the cam and swap over the necessary sensors but use all the Eagle stuff you can



I can't speak for the Eagle 5.7 but, the 6.4 BGE truck Apache. we have one running in a 06 magnum, pulled the crank swapped a 6.1 32 tooth ring on it, new bearings, locked the cam and away it went,(after some tuning,) Car had Air condition and Power steering removed,only accessory is the Alternator (power rack replaced with a Flaming river custom unit), car has about 22k on it after the swap. Still has the Apache front cover on it.

Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2407297
11/22/17 12:02 PM
11/22/17 12:02 PM
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Mid West US
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No vibrations I'm assuming. The 32 tooth wheel weighs 121 grams more than the 58 tooth.

Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2407501
11/22/17 06:32 PM
11/22/17 06:32 PM
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Trumbauersville PA
ric3xrt Offline
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Runs smooth, maybe it's the 4 bolt vs 3 bolt, Maybe 4 Bolt distributes the extra weight more evenly than the 5.7s..Not sure what to say...runs fine.


Truth has no agenda, but those with an agenda make their own truth.
Some of us are so open minded they only see their View



Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: an8sec70cuda] #2407549
11/22/17 08:33 PM
11/22/17 08:33 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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on both tone wheels the weight is distributed pretty evenly so its not going to make a difference that one is heavier than the other.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: HotRodDave] #2414769
12/07/17 04:34 PM
12/07/17 04:34 PM
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When my '05 5.7 dropped a valve seat, I spoke with a local machine shop. The owner says they do a lot of these and simply "stake" the seats and they don't drop again.

Re: '04 5.7 with '09-up heads? [Re: Tom_440] #2414848
12/07/17 06:57 PM
12/07/17 06:57 PM
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HotRodDave Offline
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Originally Posted By Tom_440
When my '05 5.7 dropped a valve seat, I spoke with a local machine shop. The owner says they do a lot of these and simply "stake" the seats and they don't drop again.


sounds hokey to me, especially since every one I have seen with a dropped seat the head was all tore up and the recess where the seat fell out would no longer even fit snug with a new seat in it. When a brand new head is like $500 why bother with all that?


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!









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