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#2404389 - 11/16/17 01:38 AM Considering new Borgeson box
JF_Moparts Offline
super stock

Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 1030
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
The latest issue of Mopar Action has an article about the 2nd Generation Borgeson box and insulated coupler. Does anyone have any experience with this setup?

I currently run a stage III firm feel box with extended pitman and idlers, but I like the idea of a 14:1 Borgeson with shorter/stock pitman and idlers to allow better exhaust clearance.

Any stories, any wisdom to share?

Oh - this would be for my 71 Satellite Sebring.

Thanks.

Jim

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#2404433 - 11/16/17 08:44 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
68rrunner Offline
member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Mountain View, CA
They have installation issues and a few manufacturing flaws to keep your eyes peels for, but if you know the hurdles, it's a good swap if you have a factory box that is worn out.

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#2404480 - 11/16/17 11:01 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 25977
Loc: So Cal
Originally Posted By JF_Moparts
The latest issue of Mopar Action has an article about the 2nd Generation Borgeson box and insulated coupler. Does anyone have any experience with this setup?

I currently run a stage III firm feel box with extended pitman and idlers, but I like the idea of a 14:1 Borgeson with shorter/stock pitman and idlers to allow better exhaust clearance.

Any stories, any wisdom to share?

Oh - this would be for my 71 Satellite Sebring.

Thanks.

Jim


I talked to them at SEMA and they showed me that coupler.


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#2404543 - 11/16/17 02:13 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: autoxcuda]
Mopar Mitch Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 1055
Loc: NW Chicago suburban area
Isn't the turning radius enlarged by using the Borgs'n box? I thought I read that recently on another post somewhere. Enlarging the turning radius isn't something desirable.

The Chrysler factory box with the longer arms (pitman and idler) become 12.7:1 ratio... with 2.7 turns lock-to-lock... still faster than the Borgs'n box which, I believe, is 3.5 turns lock-to-lock, and a relatively slower ratio of 16:1... same as a factory Chrysler box having the short arms.

The biggest advantage I see with the Borgs'n box is the reduced weight of ~10 pounds.... off the front-end of the car... improves overall handling response with less weight. But... the steering is still faster lock-to-lock the factory Chrysler box having the longer arms.

Also, the longer idler arm -- some call it the "fast-ratio idler arm" is simply a C-Body idler arm (~1970 Fury, etc)... always has been this, always will remain this. Chrysler simply realized they forgot to add it to their assembly line whenever the T/A box was installed (having the longer "Fast-Ratio" pitman arm. (No company can make a claim for "developing" or "creating" a "fast-ratio" idler arm... it's simply the C-body arm.)

The coupler which Bergman Automotive sells is a great item for anyone installing the Borgs'n box.

One thing that I've never been able to get any answers are ... is IF the Borgs'n box can accept the longer "Fast-Ratio" pitman arm, and then to also install the C-body longer idler arm ... that would make things very interesting and more desirable to me. Faster, lighter... all that becomes much better!!!



Edited by Mopar Mitch (11/16/17 02:19 PM)
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Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!

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#2404794 - 11/16/17 11:04 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
Frankenduster Offline
Moparts proctologist

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 15433
Loc: Granite Bay CA
Mitch, the Borgeson box is supposed to be 14 to 1.

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#2404838 - 11/17/17 12:57 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: Frankenduster]
Mopar Mitch Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 1055
Loc: NW Chicago suburban area
OK... 14:1... I forgot (thought I read 16:1 recently).
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Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!

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#2405130 - 11/17/17 04:17 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
JAMESDART Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 500
Loc: nj
I was on the fence with the 1st borgeson box. When they released it, I jumped. I put something like a Toyota pickup and a stock hard line ends together and had it crimped
At a hydraulic shop instead of adapters. A also added a cooler while I had the system apart. The biggest advantage to me is the space on a big block a body. The ratio is nice.

The only problem I've had is my stock Saginaw pump isn't keeping up at idle, especially when the ps fluid is cool. I don't know if I need a fresh pump, or need to adapt a newer jeep style pump.

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#2405309 - 11/18/17 12:03 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: autoxcuda]
JF_Moparts Offline
super stock

Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 1030
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Here's what's on their store page. I think it looks a little different, but can't tell for sure.

http://bergmanautocraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=5-0010

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#2405311 - 11/18/17 12:06 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
JF_Moparts Offline
super stock

Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 1030
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
My Firm Feel stage 3 box is nice, but my header clearance is killing me. I have those pipes twisted into a pretzel to clear the longer arms and I'm probably losing some hp as a result. My understanding is also that the Borgeson box has less of a dead spot than the stock Firm Feel.

I just don't want to spend all that money to find out that it's no improvement.

What's the issue with the turning radius? Do the internal stops prevent the tires from turning as far as they should?

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#2405330 - 11/18/17 01:49 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
Frankenduster Offline
Moparts proctologist

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 15433
Loc: Granite Bay CA
Dents in your headers? Haven't you heard?
Hot Rod magazine did dyno tests where they compared an engine with new headers THEN started denting them to see what effect it had. It had very little effect. So little, you'd probably kick yourself in the ass for spending $1000 to swap to a different steering box if the goal was to gain any power.

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#2405470 - 11/18/17 12:18 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
PossessedDuster Offline
member

Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 192
Loc: Alberta Canada
Watch this if you think a few dents will be killing any real power

Ctual address of the video thing doesn't work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU



Edited by PossessedDuster (11/18/17 12:19 PM)

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#2405483 - 11/18/17 12:45 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
Supercuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 13835
Loc: up yours


Gotta take the "s" out of https


Edited by Supercuda (11/18/17 12:46 PM)
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#2405603 - 11/18/17 04:48 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: autoxcuda]
lilcuda Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 357
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By autoxcuda
Originally Posted By JF_Moparts
The latest issue of Mopar Action has an article about the 2nd Generation Borgeson box and insulated coupler. Does anyone have any experience with this setup?

I currently run a stage III firm feel box with extended pitman and idlers, but I like the idea of a 14:1 Borgeson with shorter/stock pitman and idlers to allow better exhaust clearance.

Any stories, any wisdom to share?

Oh - this would be for my 71 Satellite Sebring.

Thanks.

Jim


I talked to them at SEMA and they showed me that coupler.



How exactly is that coupler insulated? shruggy

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#2405625 - 11/18/17 05:21 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
BigBlockMopar Offline
master

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 3401
Loc: The Netherlands
It's fairly insulated as long as it's kept in its packaging... laugh
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#2406076 - 11/19/17 06:24 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: Frankenduster]
JH23 Offline


Registered: 12/23/13
Posts: 70
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By Frankenduster
Dents in your headers? Haven't you heard?
Hot Rod magazine did dyno tests where they compared an engine with new headers THEN started denting them to see what effect it had. It had very little effect. So little, you'd probably kick yourself in the ass for spending $1000 to swap to a different steering box if the goal was to gain any power.


How would the "dents" affect a Gen II stroked Hemi?
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#2406093 - 11/19/17 07:14 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JH23]
Supercuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 13835
Loc: up yours
Originally Posted By JH23
Originally Posted By Frankenduster
Dents in your headers? Haven't you heard?
Hot Rod magazine did dyno tests where they compared an engine with new headers THEN started denting them to see what effect it had. It had very little effect. So little, you'd probably kick yourself in the ass for spending $1000 to swap to a different steering box if the goal was to gain any power.


How would the "dents" affect a Gen II stroked Hemi?


Get a dyno and find out
_________________________
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.

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#2406094 - 11/19/17 07:20 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JH23]
Frankenduster Offline
Moparts proctologist

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 15433
Loc: Granite Bay CA
Originally Posted By JH23
Originally Posted By Frankenduster
Dents in your headers? Haven't you heard?
Hot Rod magazine did dyno tests where they compared an engine with new headers THEN started denting them to see what effect it had. It had very little effect. So little, you'd probably kick yourself in the ass for spending $1000 to swap to a different steering box if the goal was to gain any power.


How would the "dents" affect a Gen II stroked Hemi?


I don't know why it would be any different than any other application.

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#2407016 - 11/21/17 06:13 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
70RT Charger Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 681
Loc: eastern,Ky
My buddy just installed my Borgeson and pump in my car that I bought off of Bergman and it was gravy he said. The TTI headers and everything also fit flawlessly he said


Edited by 70RT Charger (11/21/17 06:13 PM)

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#2408070 - 11/23/17 09:01 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: 70RT Charger]
DAYCLONA Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15948
Loc: Mass
Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
My buddy just installed my Borgeson and pump in my car that I bought off of Bergman and it was gravy he said. The TTI headers and everything also fit flawlessly he said



Great to hear! don't forget to take pics of the SST Tremec 6spd install when you get to it, I'd like to see how it works out in a 2nd gen B body

Mike

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#2411116 - 11/29/17 11:29 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
dangina Offline
pro stock

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 1423
Loc: Lethbridge, AB, Canada
Make sure to get the flow control valve for the saginaw so its not so twitchy on the road. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/400651963891?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

For my 71 roadrunner, the very same car your running,
I have the boreson with the saginaw pump(with flow control valve changed) and a small ps cooler, smaller steering wheel(350mm), fast ratio arms, sector support kit and idler roller bearing kit all from firm feel. http://www.firmfeel.com/b_body_mopar_parts.html
I'm not sure if your planning to do fast ratio arms or not, but you should weld up the ps box support on your kmember or add braces to strengthen it up, make sure you use loctite on the bolts that bolt the boregson to the kmember, the sector support do help keep everything nice and straight and tight. I'm telling you all of this because my first go round with the boregson was not pretty- there was so much stress on the box with the faster ratio arms and the fast ratio of the boregson that I cracked my pump in two spots. And when I moved the steering from side to side, I could see the boregson move up and down inside the bolt holes that hold the damn thing in place. Now with everything I have, nothing moves and the steering is beautiful, My turning radius from lock to lock is about 1.8 turns, I highly recommend it!


Edited by dangina (11/29/17 11:31 PM)

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#2411892 - 12/01/17 03:11 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: dangina]
Mopar Mitch Offline
super stock

Registered: 01/17/10
Posts: 1055
Loc: NW Chicago suburban area
DANGINA -- You've stated "My turning radius from lock to lock is about 1.8 turns"... and that's with the longer Fast Ratio pitman arm (and the longer idler arm, I presume, as well). At about 1.8 turns lock-to-lock, that is very, very fast!!!... something I'd love to have for the quickest pylon manuevering! (With my T/A box and longer idler arm as well, I also run a smaller stering wheel.... 11.5" diameter... helps for quicker steering action!... and, of course, a Saginaw ps pump... never run a Federal ps pump!!!).

Question: At that ratio/setup, are the inside of the front tires hitting the frame rail (typically the rear inside of the tire)?

Are you running a BB or SB? I ask because most long arm setups interfere with tubular BB headers (unless some denting is done for clearance, as required).

T/Anks ahead!!
_________________________
Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!

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#2412130 - 12/02/17 02:00 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
dangina Offline
pro stock

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 1423
Loc: Lethbridge, AB, Canada
The fronts don't hit the frame rails as I am running 1" spacers and +15mm enkei rpf1 rims with a 245/45/r18 tire.(I'm also running 2" drop spindles from magnumforce and I have my hotchkis adjustable strut rods maxed out for the most caster, I'm also running hotchkis UCA's, Running a big block setup with hedman 78030 headers - no issues there, but I did have to chop up my headers for the mini starter when I went to the larger flywheel (11" instead of the 10.5") I am running the fast ratio pitman/idler arms.

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#2445940 - 02/03/18 08:36 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: dangina]
JF_Moparts Offline
super stock

Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 1030
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Thanks for the info. Work pulled me away from the car but now it's back on my radar. There's a lot I need to do with it.

I'm 99% sure I'm going with the Borgeson, new pump, and coupler. I'll probably go back to stock pitman/idler but that will depend on if I go with a new TTI setup.

Anyone got any leads on some good Mopar mechanics in the Los Angeles / SFV area?

Thanks.

Jim

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#2479205 - 04/07/18 11:43 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: autoxcuda]
Rick_Ehrenberg Offline
top fuel

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 1681
Loc: Marlboro, NY, USA
Avoid that U-joint like the plague! Stick with the mod'd pot coupler from Bergman!

RIck

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#2479712 - 04/08/18 09:58 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 24450
Loc: Texas
ujoint seems to be working fine here.
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#2480136 - 04/09/18 05:16 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
wireweld Offline
member

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 93
Loc: South Dakota
My ujoint is working fine too. Been on for 5 years. What is so wrong with it?

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#2480162 - 04/09/18 06:13 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
TC@HP2 Offline
master

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 4875
Loc: Pikes Peak Country
Chassis flex can bind it up since the u-joint eliminates the ability to absorb beam bending in the car as a whole. Sub frame connectors go a long way in preventing this.

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#2480396 - 04/10/18 09:23 AM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: JF_Moparts]
68rrunner Offline
member

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Mountain View, CA
Ujoints on all my cars. No problems. 30k+ miles and god knows how much track time/autocrosses. But I'm sure with all the un-weather protected brake pistons, heims and u joints, one of them will explode any day now.


Edited by 68rrunner (04/10/18 09:25 AM)

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#2480780 - 04/10/18 08:22 PM Re: Considering new Borgeson box [Re: 68rrunner]
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 24450
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By 68rrunner
Ujoints on all my cars. No problems. 30k+ miles and god knows how much track time/autocrosses. But I'm sure with all the un-weather protected brake pistons, heims and u joints, one of them will explode any day now.


panic panic panic panic
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1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
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1969 Dodge Dart Custom Sedan - Grandma Edition - 318/904
2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune ~320whp

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