#2401172 - 11/09/17 07:51 PM
Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
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master
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 4065
Loc: California
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70 Road runner, stock 11" drums. Front left continually adjusts looser over time, and fairly quickly. I set it so there is enough drag to get about a turn when I spin the tire, and w/in 20-30 miles it's loose again. More than about 100 miles and it's dangerous, that side is so loose that when I hit the brakes it pulls sharply to the right. Adjust it out and everything is ok.
I just had it apart, and confirmed it is a left hand adjuster. I double checked that everything is connected correctly, and took a pry bar and moved the rear shoe back at the top, and it did click the adjustor. I double checked that it is going in the right direction, i.e. when the adjuster is turned, it is expanding and not contracting.
Had a mopar friend take a look, and he saw nothing wrong either.
What could be causing this?
_________________________
 "the orange fun car" 540 Hemi 4 spd 3:54 dana 1 of 1 - only FK5 70 Road Runner that used to be a 383 auto now a 540 Hemi Six-Pak 4 spd in existence
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#2401177 - 11/09/17 08:03 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 96503
Loc: On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Is the spring laying against the star so the star doesn't turn from vibration?
_________________________
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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#2401179 - 11/09/17 08:08 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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master
Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3903
Loc: northwest USA
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Can you post a picture of the star wheel and self adjuster lever?
1970 B-body has self adjusting 11" brakes. First time for this. Mick states self adjuster.
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#2401188 - 11/09/17 08:25 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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master
Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3903
Loc: northwest USA
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A picture of the actual brake on the car would be nice.
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#2401192 - 11/09/17 08:34 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: amxautox]
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Circle Track
Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33360
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
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Is the spring laying against the star so the star doesn't turn from vibration? that is what I would confirm & compare the tang/teeth etc on the adjuster assy on both sides to see if they are identical (other than the mirror images/different twist on the threads). The tang somehow has to be improperly allowing the star wheel teeth to vibrate/move for it to be loosening.
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live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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#2401197 - 11/09/17 08:47 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: RapidRobert]
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master
Registered: 02/09/12
Posts: 3769
Loc: Morristown Tn.
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My Dart is doing that, because the spring has rusted, and lost all of its tension allowing the star wheel adjuster to be loose and not in gauge the star wheel allowing it to back off.
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#2401392 - 11/10/17 11:14 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 96503
Loc: On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Also make sure the adjuster is inserted in place in the proper orientation. If swapped end for end the adjuster cable and plate will turn the adjuster the wrong way, and make the shoes move AWAY from the drums instead of TOWARDS the drums.
_________________________
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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#2401426 - 11/10/17 12:43 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: dart4forte]
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master
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 4065
Loc: California
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Also make sure the adjuster is inserted in place in the proper orientation. If swapped end for end the adjuster cable and plate will turn the adjuster the wrong way, and make the shoes move AWAY from the drums instead of TOWARDS the drums.  Sounds like the adjuster is backakwards I won't be able to get pictures until this weekend, but I 1) made sure this was a left side adjustor, 2) matched the position of all the components with the diagram in the FSM, 3) turned the adjuster by hand to make sure it was going in the right direction, and 4) then pried the rear shoe away from the perch, and it did move the adjustor, which I once again verified was the correct direction. doesn't mean I didn't miss something, but I think all of that is good.
_________________________
 "the orange fun car" 540 Hemi 4 spd 3:54 dana 1 of 1 - only FK5 70 Road Runner that used to be a 383 auto now a 540 Hemi Six-Pak 4 spd in existence
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#2401464 - 11/10/17 02:03 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: dart4forte]
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super stock
Registered: 05/28/12
Posts: 800
Loc: South Bend
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Also make sure the adjuster is inserted in place in the proper orientation. If swapped end for end the adjuster cable and plate will turn the adjuster the wrong way, and make the shoes move AWAY from the drums instead of TOWARDS the drums.  Sounds like the adjuster is backakwards Or swapped side for side.....
_________________________
July 19th should be "Drive Like Rockford Day". R.I.P. Jimmie.
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#2401491 - 11/10/17 02:52 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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I Live Here
Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19144
Loc: Rio Linda, CA
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You are aware that the self-adjusters only work when the brakes are firmly applied when backing up?
Lots of folks shift to Drive after backing up and seldom/never use the brakes.
_________________________
I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.
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#2401500 - 11/10/17 03:10 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: John_Kunkel]
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master
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 4065
Loc: California
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You are aware that the self-adjusters only work when the brakes are firmly applied when backing up?
Lots of folks shift to Drive after backing up and seldom/never use the brakes. Yes, that's why I pried the rear shoe away from the top mount. And as mentioned, it worked as expected.
_________________________
 "the orange fun car" 540 Hemi 4 spd 3:54 dana 1 of 1 - only FK5 70 Road Runner that used to be a 383 auto now a 540 Hemi Six-Pak 4 spd in existence
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#2401716 - 11/10/17 10:30 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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mopar
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 648
Loc: garnett kansas
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does the spring set down tight against the star wheel?
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my ladder of success is missing some rungs
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#2401875 - 11/11/17 10:21 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: rhad]
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Circle Track
Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33360
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
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if nothing appears bent/out of place/not working/wrong parts you might pull the drum & have a helper work the pedal BARELY so the shoes expand a slight bit then let off & repeat & see if the star wheel starts expanding the shoes. work with him so he goes just far enough for the tang to catch the next tooth. Holler what it ends up being.
_________________________
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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#2401912 - 11/11/17 11:39 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: RapidRobert]
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master
Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 9066
Loc: Eugene, Oregon
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if nothing appears bent/out of place/not working/wrong parts you might pull the drum & have a helper work the pedal BARELY so the shoes expand a slight bit then let off & repeat & see if the star wheel starts expanding the shoes. work with him so he goes just far enough for the tang to catch the next tooth. Holler what it ends up being. Keyword here is BARELY, unless you want brake cylinder pistons all over your shop... Did some stupid things when I was young.... LOL
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#2401960 - 11/11/17 12:40 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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master
Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3903
Loc: northwest USA
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Many problems on the suggestions so far:
1) the drum needs to be on to rotate the shoes to move the lever. Actuating the brakes with no drum will not show you anything.
You can pry the front shoe forward to see the action of the lever moving the star wheel.
2) There is no spring that touches the star wheel on self adjusting brakes.
3) if the star wheel is in backwards the lever will not touch it, it won't move the wheel backwards.
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#2401968 - 11/11/17 12:46 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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master
Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3903
Loc: northwest USA
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The adjuster lever is the only thing touching the star wheel. It should be touching 100% of the time. It should be parallel to the star wheel.
If not then the length of the cable could be wrong, or the routing of the cable.
There is a spring that returns the adjusting lever all the way down and tightens the cable when brakes are released. It there a spring present to return the lever down?
Do you have the lever that mounts on a pivot pin through the shoe? Or do you have the lever that just clips in a hole in the shoe?
Mick, look at the FSM picture posted and compare. Show us a picture when you can.
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#2402050 - 11/11/17 04:01 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 3124
Loc: South San Francisco, Ca
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Take out the adjusters and manually adjust them once a year.
_________________________
 4-speed 3:54 Dana 13.01 @107.93 with street tires (not hooking up)
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#2402069 - 11/11/17 04:32 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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I Live Here
Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19144
Loc: Rio Linda, CA
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You are aware that the self-adjusters only work when the brakes are firmly applied when backing up?
Lots of folks shift to Drive after backing up and seldom/never use the brakes. Yes, that's why I pried the rear shoe away from the top mount. And as mentioned, it worked as expected. Yeah, but is the driver actually using the brakes to stop when backing up?
_________________________
I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.
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#2402073 - 11/11/17 04:39 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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super stock
Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phila. Pa.
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Might be hunting up the wrong tree. If the right brake seems to grab hard, then maybe the left brake isn't grabbing at all. Why? Initial adjustment plays a role, but not to extent described. 20-30 miles is not normally far enough to have made a difference in the shoe lining thickness. Normally - if you're coming down Mt Washington at a clip, wear will be higher. :lol: If the shoes aren't grabbing, then the self-adjusters won't move. On the '69 up adjusters, adjusters are actuated in reverse as the secondary shoes grab . Based on what's posted so far, I'd see if the left wheel cylinder can be bled and if the wheel cyl pistons both move free. Also, review Chrysler's drum brake advice to techs http://www.imperialclub.org/Repair/Lit/Master/204/Page01.htmand '69 http://www.imperialclub.org/Repair/Lit/Master/260/Cover.htm
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#2402159 - 11/11/17 06:40 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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I Live Here
Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10644
Loc: md
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Are the primary and secondary shoes in the correct positions? Not sure if it would cause the issue but I thought I would ask.
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#2412931 - 12/03/17 11:44 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: minivan]
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master
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 4065
Loc: California
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So if anyone has noticed, I kind of got sidetracked from the brake issue because I broke the perch that the motor mount sits on clean off of the k frame.
So as I'm taking the whole front end apart to drop the k frame, I did get a chance to take a picture of the brakes. All look good to me, but the first picture is the drivers side, the one that keeps un adjusting.
Attachments
 Description: The passenger side, the one that keeps in adjustment.
_________________________
 "the orange fun car" 540 Hemi 4 spd 3:54 dana 1 of 1 - only FK5 70 Road Runner that used to be a 383 auto now a 540 Hemi Six-Pak 4 spd in existence
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#2412934 - 12/03/17 11:58 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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mopar
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 648
Loc: garnett kansas
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is the drivers side adjuster left hand thread?,if not thats your problem
_________________________
my ladder of success is missing some rungs
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#2412959 - 12/04/17 03:05 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: rhad]
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 96503
Loc: On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Yes it's left hand thread, you can see that in the picture. And yes I checked when I saw the picture.
_________________________
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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#2412961 - 12/04/17 03:48 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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mopar
Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 694
Loc: Michigan
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Why are the backing plate bolts loose in your first picture?
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#2412962 - 12/04/17 03:49 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: Transman]
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 96503
Loc: On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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because he just said in reply number #2412931 at 8:44pm; So as I'm taking the whole front end apart to drop the k frame,
_________________________
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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#2412986 - 12/04/17 08:01 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: amxautox]
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I Live Here
Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 12929
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because he just said in reply number #2412931 at 8:44pm; So as I'm taking the whole front end apart to drop the k frame, No need to remove those bolts though
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#2413022 - 12/04/17 09:52 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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mopar
Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 694
Loc: Michigan
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Yep- that threw me - I read his post but no reason to take the backing plates loose -
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#2413032 - 12/04/17 10:07 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: Transman]
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I Live Here
Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 16937
Loc: Land of Booze and Horses
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Yep- that threw me - I read his post but no reason to take the backing plates loose - Ive done it that way several times over the years. Much easier to do it this way than break the ball joint loose. ( aka no pitchfork tool or BFH required to break the ball joint loose. ) This way the lower ball joint and associated suspension components come out the with the K frame / lower control arms / tie rod ends intact.
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#2413083 - 12/04/17 12:00 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: gtx6970]
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 96503
Loc: On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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And he doesn't have to break lose the brake lines and have to bleed the brakes. Different ways to get the job done.
_________________________
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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#2413092 - 12/04/17 12:27 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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pro stock
Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 1574
Loc: Lakeland FL
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First pic looks like you have the shoes mixed up.. Isnt the longer shoe supposed to go on the back??
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#2413130 - 12/04/17 01:25 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: floridian]
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master
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 4065
Loc: California
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First pic looks like you have the shoes mixed up.. Isnt the longer shoe supposed to go on the back?? I'll double check, but I think the shoes are on correctly.
_________________________
 "the orange fun car" 540 Hemi 4 spd 3:54 dana 1 of 1 - only FK5 70 Road Runner that used to be a 383 auto now a 540 Hemi Six-Pak 4 spd in existence
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#2413131 - 12/04/17 01:25 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: gtx6970]
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master
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 4065
Loc: California
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Yep- that threw me - I read his post but no reason to take the backing plates loose - Ive done it that way several times over the years. Much easier to do it this way than break the ball joint loose. ( aka no pitchfork tool or BFH required to break the ball joint loose. ) This way the lower ball joint and associated suspension components come out the with the K frame / lower control arms / tie rod ends intact. Yes, that was the plan...
_________________________
 "the orange fun car" 540 Hemi 4 spd 3:54 dana 1 of 1 - only FK5 70 Road Runner that used to be a 383 auto now a 540 Hemi Six-Pak 4 spd in existence
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#2413136 - 12/04/17 01:32 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: amxautox]
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I Live Here
Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 12929
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And he doesn't have to break lose the brake lines and have to bleed the brakes. Different ways to get the job done. Is there enough slack in the brake hose to slide the drum backing plate off the spindle?
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#2413141 - 12/04/17 01:39 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: Supercuda]
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 96503
Loc: On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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And he doesn't have to break lose the brake lines and have to bleed the brakes. Different ways to get the job done. Is there enough slack in the brake hose to slide the drum backing plate off the spindle? Might be. If he lifts the arms and spindle up all the way, then it's very possible.
_________________________
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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#2413168 - 12/04/17 02:57 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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master
Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3903
Loc: northwest USA
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Leave the upper control arm, spindle, and backing plate in the car, no need to remove it.
Take the k frame with lower control arms, lower ball joints and all the steering linkage with it, great plan.
You don't need to bleed brakes, align the front end, bust ball joints and rip the boots.
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#2414059 - 12/06/17 01:29 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: NANKET]
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master
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 4065
Loc: California
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So this thread seems to have gone a little off track with the k frame removal. what about the brakes? anyone see anything in the pictures, or have any other ideas?
_________________________
 "the orange fun car" 540 Hemi 4 spd 3:54 dana 1 of 1 - only FK5 70 Road Runner that used to be a 383 auto now a 540 Hemi Six-Pak 4 spd in existence
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#2414271 - 12/06/17 01:41 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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master
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: Albany, NY
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Yes, back the brake problem... when I hit the brakes it pulls sharply to the right. Adjust it out and everything is ok.
What could be causing this? It is super frustrating for such a simple set up to go wrong, isn't it? You are sure the driver's shoes aren't wearing down prematurely, right? Does the car pull left when shoes are adjusted manually? Otherwise the car pulling to the side when the shoes wear down for lack of adjustment, could be hydraulic pressure isn't split equally... but you'd have pulling to the left after adjustment.. .. so, OK my gut agrees the problem is in the adjuster system. (to explain - I had a persistent "unequal braking" problem at my rear brakes a few years ago - the adjuster setup looked dead perfect, so I kept thinking it was hydraulic pressure sending unequal brake force to the rears. End of story was I found a very small discrepancy in the actuator arm's position that didn't let it engage the star wheel properly - it was the cable's eye loop at the TOP of the brake drum resulted in a shorter cable length. Problem solved). Going back to something very basic: I'd remove the rear brake drums which are working FINE (are they wearing equally?) and compare the fronts to the rears.... compare orientation of brake shoes, star wheel, cables, springs, everything.. my gut tells me something very minor isn't right and you have to find it by careful observation of something that DOES WORK right.. Do you have any Mopar buddies with '70 B-body? My '67 and '65 are just a bit different than yours. Cheers, - Art
Edited by 67SATisfaction (12/06/17 01:42 PM)
_________________________
1965 Satellite hardtop 361/2bbl, auto, pegleg 2.76 1967 Satellite convert 383/4bbl, auto, pegleg 3.23 1975 Maserati Bora, 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF 1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 2.5L SOHC hemi V6, 5-spd transaxle 1994 Alfa Romeo 164LS, 3.0L SOHC 24v hemi V6, 4spd auto ZF 2007 Aston Martin DB9, 6.0L DOHC V12, 6spd full manual transaxle
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#2414339 - 12/06/17 04:09 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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master
Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5561
Loc: Tulsa OK
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Ages ago I removed all the self adjusters on my Barracuda. The brakes seldom needed adjusting and when they did it was minute and consistent across all of them. This would have been 1994ish and at the time I think wagner had a kit to get rid of the adjusters, came with some springs and maybe an adjuster?
I have since moved to disc brakes on the front and soon the rear.
_________________________
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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#2414571 - 12/07/17 12:42 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: AARCONV]
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Circle Track
Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33360
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
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I'd toss the self adjuster stuff & elim the problem (most self adjuster setups dont work good anyhow). You pretty much just need a horizontle spring from shoe web to web to go over the star wheel & bears down on it. adj em till you hear a slight "tick" at one point in the tires' revolution. Up on stands spin the fronts forward by hand & the rears idling in drive (have a helper hit the pedal to stop em & you spoon em up a bit then he lets off & repeat till you hear that slight "tick").
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live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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#2414573 - 12/07/17 01:04 AM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 375
Loc: WA
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Only diagnostic thing I can think of is to remove the adjuster cable on both sides and see what happens. If all is good, reinstall the cable, but interchange sides to see if it happens on opposite side. I have no explanation how the adjuster can just back off or shorten. Only designed to go one way and that is to make the shoes tighter to the drum. Did you pull on the cable to actuate the adjuster? Does it go the right way? Post a pic of the top half of the offending side or even the entire side.
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#2414720 - 12/07/17 12:08 PM
Re: Why do my brakes keep un-adjusting?
[Re: mickm]
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Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 1801
Loc: ohio
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Is it really in adjusting or are the shoes just seating in. I'd like to see the wear pattern on the shoes themselves.
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