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#2393062 - 10/25/17 06:35 PM Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today
sixpackgut Offline
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#2393063 - 10/25/17 06:37 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
sixpackgut Offline
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scope


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#2393066 - 10/25/17 06:42 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
sixpackgut Offline
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alien


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#2393068 - 10/25/17 06:44 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
sixpackgut Offline
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Olanturn


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#2393161 - 10/25/17 10:12 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
fbs63 Offline
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Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 1147
Loc: NW Indiana
Any flow numbers? Who's CNC program?

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#2393171 - 10/25/17 10:37 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
sixpackgut Offline
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HHP/BES. wanna take a guess?
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#2393176 - 10/25/17 10:50 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
biff426 Offline
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Registered: 04/03/05
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Loc: Delaware
386 cfm @ 600 on the intake

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#2393199 - 10/25/17 11:22 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: biff426]
sixpackgut Offline
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Originally Posted By biff426
386 cfm @ 600 on the intake


Thats Thitek territory. Thitek 2.16 flow numbers on my bench


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Edited by sixpackgut (10/25/17 11:25 PM)
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#2393268 - 10/26/17 08:08 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
sixpackgut Offline
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witch


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#2393275 - 10/26/17 08:36 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
fbs63 Offline
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Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 1147
Loc: NW Indiana
That with a 2.14 valve?

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#2393281 - 10/26/17 09:08 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: fbs63]
sixpackgut Offline
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Loc: Charleston
Originally Posted By fbs63
That with a 2.14 valve?


Yes. Stock valves
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#2393312 - 10/26/17 10:16 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
onig Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 297
Loc: Canada
Do you have numbers of stock port for comparison?


Edited by onig (10/26/17 10:16 AM)
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#2393322 - 10/26/17 10:46 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: onig]
fbs63 Offline
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Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 1147
Loc: NW Indiana
Manley makes a 2.18 valve. Would that fit on the stock seat and how much you think it would pick up?

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#2393330 - 10/26/17 11:12 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: fbs63]
sixpackgut Offline
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Originally Posted By fbs63
Manley makes a 2.18 valve. Would that fit on the stock seat and how much you think it would pick up?


This guy called me a month or 2 ago. He said he bought manley 2.18 valves and wanted me to port his heads because he heard "im the best". Well, I dont think Im the best. Then I told him I wouldn't put a 2.18 manley valve in it because IMO its too heavy. When I told him that, this guy said Bruce at HHP said the same exact thing to him. I then said, oh so you talked to Bruce?, because they use BES and alot of people claim their heads flow 400 cfm. I told him mine do not come close to 400 and I try to focus on the low lift numbers because most people wont be putting .800 lift cams in their engine. He said , "Well I want the best. I have a $10k race comming up"

I wanted no part of this situation. I dont know who is tuner is. I told him I thought if he want the best call HHP and I would be happy to flow your heads for you when you get them back.

Yesterday he calls and asks me to look at them and see if there is anything I could do to make them better. I was like, what do you mean, did you get them CNC'd by hhp? He said yes but he wants more.

When he showed up, he wanted to pay me to polish the chambers. Chambers were untouched. I told him, waste of money. I dont do them. Barton has made 900hp with basically stock ports and untouched chambers. Told him to use his money taking weight out.

It was an interesting day
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#2393331 - 10/26/17 11:13 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
sixpackgut Offline
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Posts: 8955
Loc: Charleston
Stock apache heads are
.3 210
.4 275
.5 315
.6 335

Around those numbers


Edited by sixpackgut (10/26/17 11:15 AM)
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#2393340 - 10/26/17 11:27 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
fast68plymouth Online   content
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10321
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
That doesn't look like a big improvement to me, but I have zero experience with them...... So I don't know how easy or hard it is to make improvements to those heads.

What do they flow when you port them?
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#2393345 - 10/26/17 11:38 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: fast68plymouth]
sixpackgut Offline
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
That doesn't look like a big improvement to me, but I have zero experience with them...... So I don't know how easy or hard it is to make improvements to those heads.

What do they flow when you port them?


On 2 moparts member heads they went
.4 312
.5 340
.6 350

On mine, but mine are tubed at pushrod pinch. Mine go
.4 320
.5 345
.6 360

I try to do value porting. I have like ADD or something. For what I charge, im only willing to spend x amount of time. The amount of time to get that little extra whether its the g3 heads or LS heads people just dont want to pay for and I really dont want to slave over them.

Dwayne, what do you think about the radius on the intake seat on these CNC heads I posted?
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#2393356 - 10/26/17 11:47 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
fast68plymouth Online   content
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Posts: 10321
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Only the one pic with the flow numbers loaded for me on my old phone...... So I haven't seen the others yet.
I'll check them out when I get home.

My porting philosophy is similar to yours...... I want to get the most gain for the least work.
If you need every last cfm...... I'm not your guy.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2393362 - 10/26/17 12:14 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
RAMM Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 875
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
[quote=fast68plymouth]



Dwayne, what do you think about the radius on the intake seat on these CNC heads I posted?


I know you didn't ask me but I saw that huge radius and thought--UGH. Do not like.

I have story about some 6.1 heads CNC'd by same place and yeah--that's a story for later. Let's just say that a proper valve job and properly sized throat really woke them up--something like 25-30 cfm at almost all lift points above .100". J.Rob
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#2393364 - 10/26/17 12:18 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
Adrielp Offline
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Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Oklahoma
Guys, how much peak HP do you think is lost by not going .800 lift? I'm just curious if there is significant power to be gained there.
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#2393378 - 10/26/17 12:48 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: RAMM]
sixpackgut Offline
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Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 8955
Loc: Charleston
Originally Posted By RAMM
Originally Posted By sixpackgut
[quote=fast68plymouth]



Dwayne, what do you think about the radius on the intake seat on these CNC heads I posted?


I know you didn't ask me but I saw that huge radius and thought--UGH. Do not like.

I have story about some 6.1 heads CNC'd by same place and yeah--that's a story for later. Let's just say that a proper valve job and properly sized throat really woke them up--something like 25-30 cfm at almost all lift points above .100". J.Rob


Sadly i did not measure the throat on these. I do not have scraps of hemi heads to play with. I have tried what your saying and lost my low lift numbers .5 and below. It picked up at .6 and up but not what i was looking for.

I am in my opinion a novice. I ask alot of questions because I don't know and thankfully alot of guys are willing to share. It could very well be that these heads would make a bunch more power than mine. I have no idea. But In my mind I would rather run my hack job.

On another note, how do you go about telling a customer that what he just paid for from one of the most well known builders in the country is not up to your standards and im going to charge you more money


Edited by sixpackgut (10/26/17 01:21 PM)
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Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135

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#2393389 - 10/26/17 01:13 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: Adrielp]
sixpackgut Offline
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Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 8955
Loc: Charleston
Originally Posted By Adrielp
Guys, how much peak HP do you think is lost by not going .800 lift? I'm just curious if there is significant power to be gained there.


Give me 40k and Ill let you know smile
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Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135

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#2393447 - 10/26/17 03:24 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
Adrielp Offline
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Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Oklahoma
Lol, its always a question of time and money.
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#2393463 - 10/26/17 03:58 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
RAMM Offline
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Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 875
Loc: The Great White North
Originally Posted By sixpackgut

Sadly i did not measure the throat on these. I do not have scraps of hemi heads to play with. I have tried what your saying and lost my low lift numbers .5 and below. It picked up at .6 and up but not what i was looking for.


On another note, how do you go about telling a customer that what he just paid for from one of the most well known builders in the country is not up to your standards and im going to charge you more money


So I flowed these 6.1 heads that came my way just for my own curiosity. As they were with a Manley 2.1" valve from a well known CNC shop on a 4.06" bore @ 28"
.1 68.2
.2 124.5
.3 181.4
.4 231
.5 282
.55 298
.6 310
.7 317

Seeing this I measured the throat and it was really small somewhere around 86.5% or something. I took a 70 deg stone and went to town and bumped the throat to a more normal 90% AND..

.1 76
.2 142
.3 205
.4 231
.5 295
.55 307
.6 318
.65 326
.7 331

So now I tell the customer what they flowed before vs after and I wound up with the job to fix them. That's how I was able to upsell this time. It also explained the poor chassis dyno performance to a degree. J.Rob
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2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
2010 PHR\EMC Competitor
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#2393470 - 10/26/17 04:20 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: RAMM]
sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 8955
Loc: Charleston
Originally Posted By RAMM
Originally Posted By sixpackgut

Sadly i did not measure the throat on these. I do not have scraps of hemi heads to play with. I have tried what your saying and lost my low lift numbers .5 and below. It picked up at .6 and up but not what i was looking for.


On another note, how do you go about telling a customer that what he just paid for from one of the most well known builders in the country is not up to your standards and im going to charge you more money


So I flowed these 6.1 heads that came my way just for my own curiosity. As they were with a Manley 2.1" valve from a well known CNC shop on a 4.06" bore @ 28"
.1 68.2
.2 124.5
.3 181.4
.4 231
.5 282
.55 298
.6 310
.7 317

Seeing this I measured the throat and it was really small somewhere around 86.5% or something. I took a 70 deg stone and went to town and bumped the throat to a more normal 90% AND..

.1 76
.2 142
.3 205
.4 231
.5 295
.55 307
.6 318
.65 326
.7 331

So now I tell the customer what they flowed before vs after and I wound up with the job to fix them. That's how I was able to upsell this time. It also explained the poor chassis dyno performance to a degree. J.Rob


6.1 head is a bit different than eagles and apache. I port the 6.1 and eagle/apache 2 different ways. Thats really sad you had to do that but it is what it is for your customers sake. How often do you have the dress the stone when doing that. That degree just doesnt last long for me
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#2393474 - 10/26/17 04:30 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
RAMM Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 875
Loc: The Great White North
I know they are different it was just that the shape of the seat in your photo reminded me of this. It is really sad. I have to dress the stone every seat. Adding this kind of flow shocked me though. J.Rob
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#2393587 - 10/26/17 09:17 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
fast68plymouth Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10321
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Ray, re- the intake seats......

I doubt I would have ended up there myself.......but......I've had a few sets of gen 2 heads in the shop, done by very well known hemi head shops that had that same type of seat work.....so, until I tested it.......I can't condemn it.

As a rule of thumb, I use multi-angle intake seats.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2394348 - 10/28/17 05:55 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
MattW Offline
top fuel

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2471
Loc: Ontario Canada
Ray I don't know if you know this but all my head flows # are off of J.Rob bench.
I believe a long time ago you and I flowed a set of eagle heads and Both benches were within 2 to 3 cfm of each other.
Matt

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#2394785 - 10/29/17 11:37 AM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: MattW]
sixpackgut Offline
Drag Week Mod Champion

Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 8955
Loc: Charleston
Originally Posted By MattW
Ray I don't know if you know this but all my head flows # are off of J.Rob bench.
I believe a long time ago you and I flowed a set of eagle heads and Both benches were within 2 to 3 cfm of each other.
Matt


Wow. That's good to know. Yes, extremely close. Didn't we match apache flow numbers almost exactly also?

With that being said, my 6.1 port job flows better than whats listed above also
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#2394911 - 10/29/17 02:17 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
MattW Offline
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Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2471
Loc: Ontario Canada
Yes we did!

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#2396211 - 10/31/17 04:29 PM Re: Flowed a CNC ported Apache head today [Re: sixpackgut]
72Swinger Offline
master

Registered: 02/23/11
Posts: 4287
Loc: Nebraska
Thitek has a CNC program for Apaches. Would be cool to see one of those to.
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