Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2390696 - 10/21/17 06:25 AM Revisiting the 57 Plymouth
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ


My 50th High School reunion is in 2020 and I've pretty much decided that I'll be driving my 57 Plymouth back for it. It's been 11 years since I originally built the old Plaza to drive to Tulsa when they dug up the buried 57 Belvedere.

57 Plymouth by M Patterson, on Flickr

The car runs a 56 354 Hemi with Tri-Power, PAW cam, 56 exhaust manifolds, front disc brakes, iron case overdrive A833 4 speed and a 9 1/4" rear end with 4.10 gears.


57 354 by M Patterson, on Flickr



The paint and interior have both held up well, and it has working AC, cruise control, and a stereo with a reverb (what can I say the 60s were good to me LOL).


57 Int by M Patterson, on Flickr

Right now I’m just doing some general maintenance stuff on it. It needed a set of rear tires and while I had the wheels off I replaced the rear wheel cylinders that has started seeping a little.

The steering gear is has some slop in it so I dug up another one to send out and be rebuilt. I’m not looking forward to that little job. The column and gear have to come out as a unit, which requires taking up the carpet, removing a plate in the floor and bringing out the whole unit thru the interior.

sg by M Patterson, on Flickr
the steering shaft runs all the way from the box to the steering wheel so there is really no way around it. At least it’s not a PS gear which are a good deal larger and heavier.

rs by M Patterson, on Flickr


The clutch in it has always been a bit on the stiff side, so while I have the steering gear out (and out of the way), I’ll probably try to modify the linkage a bit to take care of that issue.


That’s pretty much it for the maintenance, but there are also some changes I’m contemplating.

I’m gathering the pieces I need to build a set of dual quads for it. There’s nothing wrong with the Tri Power, it works great. I’ve just always wondered what kind of performance gain I would see if any with 8 barrels instead of 6.

I’ve also been kicking around changing the 4 speed out to an automatic. I’m getting older and on occasion my left leg gives me a few problems. Of course making some changes to the clutch linkage may buy me a few more years being able to row thru the gears. While I generally really like the OD 4 speed, the gear ratio splits kind of suck for any spirited driving.

My first choice would be to do another 46RH like I have in the 37 Dodge. Now that the Compushift controller is dialed in I really really like that transmission. It also would give me a bit more of an overdrive than the OD A833 does. The two major down sides are cost (by the time I buy the transmission adapter, Compushift controller, shifter, trans cooler and shorten the drive shaft I’d be into it well over $1000, and that does NOT include the cost of the transmission! The other issues are; the size (I’m pretty sure trans tunnel mods are going to be needed) and the trans mount location which would require some major changes to the crossmember.

The second and much easier and cheaper automatic route is to use the small block 727 I have sitting in the back shed. That’s pretty much a bolt in, but would require a rear end gear swap to something more highway friendly than the 4.10s that are currently in it.

The other major change I’m looking at is adding power steering. I purposely built the car with manual steering as I hate the lack of road feel with the stock 57-62. Even if I did decide to go with the factory power steering I’d either have to go with the more restrictive 57-58 392 exhaust manifolds or build a set of custom headers for it. The one option that looks like it might be feasible is to use electric power steering. I’ve been researching the units that go in the column between the steering wheel and steering box and fit under the dash. If I do that route the switch over to an automatic transmission becomes mandatory, as I’ll have to lose the clutch pedal to make room for the unit.

Right now the automatic transmission and PS changes are just in the contemplating stage. I’ll hold up making any final decisions on those until I get the clutch linkage modified and the rebuilt steering gear in it and see how I like it after those changes.

At least I know what my next project is going to be.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2390725 - 10/21/17 08:46 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
71charger Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 1837
Loc: Frederick, MD
Impressive. Most '57 Plymouths had rusted away by the early '60s.

Top
#2390729 - 10/21/17 09:04 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
moparx Offline
master

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 8132
Loc: north of coder
hurry up and retire. the guy that stated :
"when i retired, i can't understand how i even found time to go to work, there are so many projects that need done !"
really knew what he was talking about ! eek
[i speak from experience biggrin]
beer

Top
#2390767 - 10/21/17 10:25 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
“……hurry up and retire. the guy that stated :
"when i retired, i can't understand how i even found time to go to work, there are so many projects that need done !"
really knew what he was talking about !
[i speak from experience…..”

I’m having that very same experience. shock




“……Impressive. Most '57 Plymouths had rusted away by the early '60s……”


Thanks. That’s the nice thing about living in AZ. It wasn’t all that impressive when I drug it home, but it at least it was virtually rust free. Even out here though they didn’t have a good survival rate and I spent 6 years look for a 2 dr sedan to build. As one wrecking yard owner told me when I asked if he had any 57-58 Plymouths…… “Naw, haven’t had any of those in years, they were so damned ugly we crushed every one that came in.”

This poor old thing had somehow not found its way to the crusher. It came complete with the original flat head 6 (with a rod sticking out thru the block) and 2spd Powerflite.

P by M Patterson, on Flickr


At least it was in better shape than the new 57 Plymouth (with 14 miles on it) they buried in Tulsa in 1957 and dug up in 2007. There wasn’t a square inch on that car that wasn’t pin holed with rust.


C2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


The Tulsa event was a lot of fun and I’m glad I had mine built in time to go to it. It was likely the biggest gathering of 57-58 Plymouths in 50 years.

This was the row of 57-58 Furys that showed up.

Fury row by M Patterson, on Flickr

This had to be my favorite though. It started out life as a 4 door and in the 60’s the guy who owns it decided that was just too many doors sawzall

It run a 392 Hemi and 4 speed and as I recall 3.91 gears.


Short 1 by M Patterson, on Flickr


I’m kind of thinking that could be a handful (but a LOT of fun).
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2390830 - 10/21/17 12:15 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
RUNCHARGER Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15341
Loc: Chilliwack B.C. Canada
Anyway you can put Rack and Pinion in it>
_________________________
Sheldon

Top
#2390856 - 10/21/17 01:04 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
I looked at that quite a bit when I built the car. It would have to be a rear steer rack, and there just isn't enough room to put one in (oil pan interference) It would make life a lot easier if I could.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2390907 - 10/21/17 03:35 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
RUNCHARGER Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15341
Loc: Chilliwack B.C. Canada
Yes: I got two original PS setups going on Sweptline trucks that I owned, I never want to mess with antique PS systems again.
_________________________
Sheldon

Top
#2391017 - 10/21/17 10:02 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Satilite73 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 12430
Loc: Between Houston & Galveston TX
Originally Posted By Mike P
I looked at that quite a bit when I built the car. It would have to be a rear steer rack, and there just isn't enough room to put one in (oil pan interference) It would make life a lot easier if I could.



(I know squat about '57's, so keep that in mind)

Based on what you said, it looks like no matter which route you go for PS, you have to modify/change things up.

What kind of oil pan mods are needed for the rack to work?

Beautiful car. I'd love to have something vintage one day.
_________________________
John




Top
#2391092 - 10/22/17 08:10 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
“…….What kind of oil pan mods are needed for the rack to work?.......”


Not the best picture, but what I had in the computer.

drag link by M Patterson, on Flickr


It also refreshed my memory that it would really take. The pan mods would be the minor part.

In order to keep the stock spindles and suspension I’d need a rear steer rack. It would have to sit just about where the drag link goes. That would require installing a crossmember to mount it to. Even though I could run holes in a new crossmember to run the torsion bars thru, where the ends of the new crossmember would need to go are right where the frame kicks up and there is nothing there to attach the crossmember to. Then there is the issue of connecting the steering column to the rack. Where the pinion shaft would be would require the steering shaft to make an almost 90 degree drop straight down from the firewall.

I had briefly considered a front steer rack. The first thing I would need is front spindles that would be compatible with the Chrysler ball joints and control arms. Then front crossmember makes a big forward curve and would end up having to be changed to make it straight to bolt the rack to, which I’m pretty sure would require cutting into the front of the pan which I’m not sure I could do without getting into the oil pump pickup.

At that point doing a front frame clip like 5280Dart is doing to his 57 looks like a much more viable option. He’s doing great work by the way and I’m really looking forward to seeing his car done and his impressions on how it drives and handles.

That being said the clip swap is not for me. It would be easy enough to do especially as he has pretty much blazed the trail. The thing is, I really like the feel of driving my 57 with the old torsion bar suspension. I grew up in the 50s-60s and in 68 started working in a Chrysler Plymouth dealership. It hit me first real test drive I took with the Plymouth that the car had the same “feel” as driving the base (4 speed/manual steering) Road Runners I used to test drive. I know that I could take advantage of the suspension advances of the last 60 years and make a lot better handling and comfortable car out of it. The thing is I think I’d end up losing some of the things I really love about the way the car drives…..and brings back a lot of nice memories for me.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2391118 - 10/22/17 09:11 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Θάνατος Offline
supercuda

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 12822
Loc: betwixt the land of the living...
Cavalier center pivot R&P. Fab cross member to bolt it to the original idler arm bracket and steer box mount. Already paper engineered this for install into my Cuda, once I finish getting the shop built.

Top
#2391122 - 10/22/17 09:27 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Satilite73 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 12430
Loc: Between Houston & Galveston TX

Thanks for the lengthy reply Mike!

It does look like the T-bars would be the biggest challenge of the R&P mod. I understand the suspensions are completely different, but, this set up for a '57 Chevy was what I was thinking of in terms of mounting. It looks like they handled the kick up by mounting the cross member to the side of the frame rather than the flat.

R&P Linky

And then there's the matter of making sure mounting and angles are right so you don't end up with bump steer.

"The thing is I think I’d end up losing some of the things I really love about the way the car drives…..and brings back a lot of nice memories for me."

I totally get your reasoning not wanting to do a clip swap on your car. I feel the same way about the (original) engine in my wagon (400). Hemi swaps are all the rage but I want to keep the original to show how it used to be done.
_________________________
John




Top
#2391251 - 10/22/17 12:51 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Satilite73]
RUNCHARGER Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15341
Loc: Chilliwack B.C. Canada
I would never pull the T-bars out of a Mopar either. Would that
smaller replacement Borgeson (came in Jeeps maybe) PS box for the "newer" Mopars work?
_________________________
Sheldon

Top
#2391529 - 10/22/17 09:26 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
poorboy Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 6063
Loc: Freeport IL USA
My son has a 57 Dodge wagon with power steering. Before we installed the 5.9, I spent a lot of time looking for a way to mount up a rack & pinion. I have done several R & P swaps on 30s-50s Mopars. I have an Intrepid rack (a front steer version of a Cavalier rack) sitting here, so I had an actual rack to hang in place. Even without a motor interfering, the rack would not work without major modification to the frame and suspension and completely changing the steering column. The torsion bars get in the way at the rear, and the forward strut bars get in the way in front. To clear either, the rack would need to mount too high to fit in a motor, or too low for ground clearance. Gene

Top
#2391570 - 10/22/17 11:01 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
rowin4 Offline
master

Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 5859
Loc: gulfport, ms, west mi
Once the steering box and shaft are out why not cut it and fit a rag joint or trunnion joint in like 60's cars have. sure would make it easier if you ever had to do repairs again.
_________________________
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead

Top
#2391598 - 10/23/17 12:38 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 16135
Loc: Canada
Good looking Plymouth!!!! up
_________________________
CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Top
#2391694 - 10/23/17 09:17 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Θάνατος]
DaytonaTurbo Offline


Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 20444
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Beautiful car! Only thing I might change is to go with a hydraulic clutch to really cut down on pedal effort.

Originally Posted By Supercuda
Cavalier center pivot R&P. Fab cross member to bolt it to the original idler arm bracket and steer box mount. Already paper engineered this for install into my Cuda, once I finish getting the shop built.


What's your plan to account for turning radius loss? Are you making longer steering arms?

Top
#2391702 - 10/23/17 09:26 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
Thanks for all the replies guys.

"..... Only thing I might change is to go with a hydraulic clutch to really cut down on pedal effort......"

Thanks. I'm going to play a bit with the ratios on the mechanical linkage first and if I leave it a stick the hydraulic clutch is one of the things I'm looking at.



Gene (poorboy) pretty much summed up the rack and pinion situation.



“……Once the steering box and shaft are out why not cut it and fit a rag joint or trunnion joint in like 60's cars have. sure would make it easier if you ever had to do repairs again…….”


About 10 years before I built the Plymouth I built a 57 Dodge Coronet 2dr post car. The 57-58 Dodges have engine compartments, suspensions and steering that are identical to the 57-58 Plymouths.

57 Dodge by M Patterson, on Flickr

I ran a dual quad 440 with a 64 pushbutton torqueflight. Originally it was a manual steering car but with 69 C body HIPO manifolds and I had plenty of room for the larger factory power steering. I originally changed over to a 57 power steering gear before the engine went in. The 57 PS was actually worse than the 58 and later units. I found a later unit in a car in the junk yard and figured as I had the car up in the air on the fork lift I’d just drop it out thru the bottom. I quickly found out that with an engine in the car there was not a hole big enough to drop the gear out without removing the torsion bar…….something you definitely don’t want to do unless you have to on these cars. Coming out thru the interior, the column actually makes a decent handle to hold on to while you thread the unit out thru the hole in the floor.


“……..Would that smaller replacement Borgeson (came in Jeeps maybe) PS box for the "newer" Mopars work?.......”


The biggest problem with most newer boxes is the length of the pitman shaft. The 57-62 (?) used a long pitman shaft to place the pitman arm where it needs to be.


sg by M Patterson, on Flickr


The only readily available stock PS box I’ve come across with a long pitman shaft is on the mid 70s Ford F150s.


F150 by M Patterson, on Flickr


The major show stopper on that box is that it is designed to bolt to the outside of the frame rail…..the second problem is that it’s huge.


The Tri 5 Chevy guys had kind of a similar issue with their steering and many years ago came with this solution. It’s a 605 Saginaw box with a custom longer pitman shaft and an add on casting to support the bottom of the shaft.

57 Chev by M Patterson, on Flickr


If I had more room between the steering box and engine (like with a big or small block instead of the HEMI) I’d probably research this one a bit more. It would likely have to be close to bolt in (length wise) to make sense as having a one-off custom built pitman shaft made would likely be cost prohibitive.

Sheldon your question did get me thinking along an avenue I hadn’t consider before. To use a smaller modern PS box “as is” would require dropping it way down to get the pitman arm in the right location….. but at the same time it would alleviate my steering box to manifold clearance problem.

The issue then becomes the steering column. The column is supported at the top under the dash and at the bottom where it goes thru the firewall. There is only about 6” that comes thru on the engine side of the firewall.

57 Ply by M Patterson, on Flickr



If I cut the column on the firewall side and try to run an intermediate shaft to connect the column to the dropped steering gear on the engine side the angle the joints would have to run would be too steep to work without binding. I might be able to get decent joint angles if I cut the column up in the passenger compartment. That would just leave figuring a way to support the bottom of the shortened steering column. I don’t know what other show stoppers I might run into…..just like every other option I discarded over the years, but I think it’s something I’ll explore some more.


Edited by Mike P (10/23/17 09:33 AM)
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2392109 - 10/23/17 10:05 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
RUNCHARGER Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15341
Loc: Chilliwack B.C. Canada
Darn: Yes I've went through this with sweptlines and my friend has a 66 Ford Pickup he is trying to figure something out with as well. It sure is a hassle, that electric unit is starting to sound pretty good.
_________________________
Sheldon

Top
#2392202 - 10/24/17 06:30 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
"........Darn: Yes I've went through this with sweptlines and my friend has a 66 Ford Pickup he is trying to figure something out with as well. It sure is a hassle, that electric unit is starting to sound pretty good......."


Yeah Sheldon that pretty much sums it up.

My big plan was to ship out the spare steering box to a rebuilder in Phoenix yesterday. I was actually in the process of packing it up when I realized IF I can make a later box work by mounting it lower and using an intermediate shaft I'd end up with a box I spent over $350 on sitting in the pats shed. So late yesterday afternoon I put the Plymouth back up in the air where I can get better look at everything.

After 20 years of off and on thinking about how to get PS into these cars deep down I suspect that after doing some looking and measuring this will likely also end up pile of discarded ideas, but you never know.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2393259 - 10/26/17 07:59 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
Sheldon I don't know if this box would have worked for you or your friend. I came across it while I was looking for something else. It's a Ford box and would mount on the inside of the frame (instead of the outside like the other box I posted). It wouldn't help me with the HEMI, but might work with other engines.


f Bronco by M Patterson, on Flickr


https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Po...AyABEgKZcvD_BwE



On my 57 I went thru my pile of steering gears to get some measurements and drug a couple into the shop so I could get some measurements and make some comparisons. At this point it looks like I might be able to fit a Saginaw 800 box in there. The measurements I could take look good, but I really won't know till I get the original steering gear out. If it physically fits issues like shortening and modifying the original column and coming up with an intermediate shaft and joints should be fairly straight forward.

Once I determined the gear might physically fit I figured the next show stopper would be whether it would be mechanically compatible with the stock steering linkage. I was really surprised on how close it meets the requirements. The stock Plymouth pitman arm will fit the steering box and indexes where it needs to be on the master splines (but may need to be tweaked a bit). The pitman arm rotates in the correct direction....a big plus up . The steering box I have is 3 1/2 turns stop to stop (the manual gear in the Plymouth is 4 1/2 turns stop to stop) which is right where I'd like it to be. Finally both boxes have the same 7" of pitman arm rotation stop to stop. Basically I don't think I could have speced out a box any closer to what I need.

Figuring the cost of using a rebuilt Saginaw 800 box and the bits and pieces I'll need to modify the steering column, add an intermediate shaft, and custom made PS pressure hoses (I already have a new PS pump on the shelf), I will still be under what it would cost to have the Manual steering gear rebuilt. Provided I can get the Saginaw mounted. I've got a couple other things I need the bay for before I'm ready rip the steering out of the 57, so it will be a bit before I get back to the steering.

As far as some of the other things I want to do to the car;

I should hopefully finish of the modifications to the clutch linkage today or tomorrow.

Yesterday I picked up the dual quad intake for the HEMI (it's an original 57 Chrysler intake). At this moment I'm not sure what carbs I'll be using, other than they will AFBs. I've got a pair that are pretty well matched that would work in a pinch but I'm still looking at options. On the bright side the dual quad intake is so much lower than the Tri-Power that I'll be able to run 1" Phenolic spacers under the carbs and still have plenty of hood clearance.

Even with the spacers I could actually go back to a stock flat hood. I actually wouldn't mind doing that but with an 11 year old paint job I know I'd never be able to match the paint where I'd be happy with it.


Edited by Mike P (10/26/17 08:25 AM)
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2393978 - 10/27/17 07:07 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
I’ve got the clutch straightened out. Turns out that all that was required was adding a bolt on extension to the clutch fork. It was pretty simple to built but took just a bit of time working on a creeper to figure out what I needed to make.


57 ext by M Patterson, on Flickr



Changing to an automatic is not completely off the table depending on what I end up doing for power steering , but I figure I've probably bought my leg a few more years with the 4 speed. if I decide to keep it.


I mentioned in the original post that I put the 57 together so I could drive it to Tulsa when the unearthed the 57 Belvedere in 2007.


Now that I’m working on the 57 again I’ve gone back and revisited some web sites I was on when I built the car. I came across some information on the Belvederes’ current status.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/06/28...eum/?refer=news

The car looks a lot better than it did when it came out of the hole, but like the article indicates all the metal is thin and pin holed (“It’s basically like papier mâché,”).

The museum where it’s to be located is only a couple of hour drive from where my High School reunion will be so if it’s still there I’ll probably take a drive and go see it.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2398329 - 11/04/17 08:58 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
Once I got the 57 drivable back in 06 the drivers’ side rear spring started to sag a bit. I took the easy/quick way out at the time and threw a set of air shocks on the back. I finally got tired of adding air to them every 3 days so figured I go ahead and fix it right.

My experience with re-ached springs is that they tend to be over arched and when they are first put on the car sits like a stink bug and it take up to a couple years for the rear to settle to the final ride height. The only new off the shelf springs that will bolt on to the 57 are Mopar Performance C body super stock springs and those are a bit on the stiff side for my taste (I used them on the 57 Dodge I built several years ago).

That pretty much left adding some leafs to the spring packs. I had a spring pack out in the shed that has the right width leafs so I ended up adding 2 to the drivers’ side and one to the passengers’ side. That and a new pair of shocks and one more thing is checked off the list.

57 brakes by M Patterson, on Flickr


I also started collecting the bits and pieces for the dual quads. I picked up an original 57 dual quad manifold form a friend of mine who has decided to go with an aluminum intake for his Hemi. I set a pair of parts carbs on to check the height of the spacers I want to run under them (these carbs have too many internal issues to make them viable as builders). I’ll be running spacers for 2 reasons; insulating the carbs from the intake to help prevent heat soak on hot days , getting the air cleaner up into the scoop area……even with 1 ½” of spacers the air cleaner is still sits lower than the tri-power.

354 DQ by M Patterson, on Flickr

I like the big oval air cleaner on this car, but when I built it the only thing I could find were the chrome steel ones. To me the chrome steel never looked quite right with the aluminum valve covers. I picked up an aluminum air cleaner assembly which was black powder coated. I got the powder coating stripped (acetone and steel wool). Right now I’m debating whether to polish the lid out or send it and the valve covers out to be powder coated. I’m kind of leaning towards the powder coating. The “near chrome” powder coating does not look anything like chrome but does look like polished aluminum and it doesn’t oxidize like polished aluminum does. It’s also a lot easier than polishing the lid and those big valve covers …..but like I said, I’m still deciding.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2398435 - 11/04/17 03:00 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: DaytonaTurbo]
Θάνατος Offline
supercuda

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 12822
Loc: betwixt the land of the living...
Originally Posted By DaytonaTurbo
Beautiful car! Only thing I might change is to go with a hydraulic clutch to really cut down on pedal effort.

Originally Posted By Supercuda
Cavalier center pivot R&P. Fab cross member to bolt it to the original idler arm bracket and steer box mount. Already paper engineered this for install into my Cuda, once I finish getting the shop built.


What's your plan to account for turning radius loss? Are you making longer steering arms?


Longer? No that would worsen the issue.

Shorter, yes.

Depending on the applications you can sometimes find a different model arm that will bolt on and work.

Top
#2398736 - 11/05/17 08:36 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
I took a look at the Cavalier center pivot R&P. At a glance for this car it’s probably more unfeasible than trying to rig a convention rack under the car. Besides the rack hanging down way to low, the added room required for rack movement and the angle the tie rods would end up requiring a complete redesign of the front crossmember and oil pan. By the time that’s finished you’re almost looking at a front frame clip again.

I found a build thread on another Hemi Plaza last week (neat project). He started with a 6 Cyl car like mine and changed out the 6 Cyl Frame mounts to original V8 Frame mounts like I did. He ended up with room for a factory PS unit……..on closer inspection of his pictures, it turns out he had shifted his engine over a couple of inches. That boats already sailed on mine ( and I won’t put factory PS on mine anyway).

Like I said I think I can fit a 800 series Saginaw box in but I’m continuing to look at options. I talked to a friend of mine yesterday and he has a core 605 Saginaw box I can borrow for a while. It’s a bit smaller and may be easier to mount than the 800s and universal Pitman arms are available for them so I’m going take a closer look at that.

This week is going to be pretty much eaten up with getting a load of stuff ready to take up to a swap meet in Tucson so it will probably be a bit before I get back on the steering.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2398870 - 11/05/17 12:09 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
RUNCHARGER Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15341
Loc: Chilliwack B.C. Canada
You're making good progress.
_________________________
Sheldon

Top
#2403883 - 11/15/17 07:16 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
I started looking for AFBs to use for the dual quads a couple of weeks ago. Personally I usually like to find a pair of used carbs that are matched and build them myself. I usually have at least some AFBs sitting on the shelf but over the last few years a lot have been used or sold so I didn’t have anything suitable on hand. The local wrecking yards were picked over years ago so I went on E Bay and Craigs List to see what was out there. It’s been a few years since I've bought any and boy did I get a bit of sticker shock.

There was a swap meet in Tucson last Saturday that I was going to anyway so I figured I'd see if I could find anything up there. There were several used AFBs around but most sellers were asking E Bay prices. I did find one Carter 9635S that the guy was asking $60 on (about twice what I’d normally pay for a builder) but I bit the bullet and bought it anyway……..if I didn’t find a mate for it I figured I could built it and either keep it on hand or sell it. I found the “bargain of the day” a little later when a guy set up across the road from me (selling mostly flea market stuff) and set out a pretty grungy looking 9625S for $5.


sm2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


There are a couple of minor external differences between the 9635 and 9625 but they are both 625 CFM and internally identical.

They both cleaned up well and I had enough parts on hand to build one so I only had to buy one kit. I verified they were both jetted the same and have the same step rods and springs so that will be my starting point.

I built the carb I’m going to be using as the primary carb back to the way it originally was and removed the choke from the carb that will be used as the secondary carb. It happens the carb spacing on the factory manifold is just right to use an aftermarket fuel line for a Holley dual feed double pumper, which takes care of having to build fuel lines. The carb spacing is the same on both the First Gen Chrysler Hemi and the factory B and RB cast iron in line dual quad manifolds the fuel line will work for either

DQ by M Patterson, on Flickr

So with the cost of the carbs and 1 kit, I’m into the carbs for about $100……sometimes life isn’t not too bad.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2403912 - 11/15/17 09:20 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
moparx Offline
master

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 8132
Loc: north of coder
those carbs look good. what did you use to clean them with ?
beer

Top
#2407234 - 11/22/17 04:50 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ

When I decided to put the dual quads on the 57 and started looking around for AFBs I became concerned that I would have a problem finding affordable builders. I did luck out and found the 625 CFM AFBs though and got them rebuilt and ready to use. They weren’t my first choice but I’m pretty sure they will work out fine.

My first choice was a pair of early 60s Cadillac AFBs. I’d used a pair of these on my 65 Chevy (350 4 speed) years ago and really liked the way they ran. I had one sitting on the shelf and had keep my eyes open for a mate for it for years but never was lucky enough to find one.

It never fails, a couple of days after I got 625s rebuilt I found out a friend of mine had the Cadillac carb I wanted sitting on his shelf gathering dust. We ended up doing a bit of trading and it ended up in my shop.


Cad AF by M Patterson, on Flickr


I picked up a couple of kits and got them both taken apart and cleaned up. You could tell it had been a long time since anybody had been into to them (I think they had both had kits at least once sometime in the past). When was the last time you took a carburetor apart and it had steel needles (no “rubber” tips) in it?

SN by M Patterson, on Flickr



So now I have 2 pairs of carbs to try out on the 57.


Cad AFB 2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


These AFBs are a little unusual compared to most of the ones produced. They are 575 CFM and don’t have an idle speed adjustment screw. The throttle plates are closed at idle and the speed is adjusted with the brass air bleed screw located between the fuel mixture screws. As they are the early AFBs they have the also have the smaller 4 7/32” air cleaner base instead of the 5 1/8” used on the later AFBs. I found an outfit that sells aluminum adapter rings for the air cleaners so that I have a pair of those coming too.

I’m going to set both pairs of carbs up for synchronized and progressive linkage while the intake is still on the bench. So now I’m down to building 4 sets of carb linkage. Whatever set carbs I don’t end up using on the 57 will probably eventually find a home on something else around here.

As far as cleaning them it depends on how bad they are. I always soak them in a 5 gallon can of carburetor I have here (I'm not sure who made it, the can is 7 or 8 years old and I've had to replace the original can it was in....it might have been hydro-seal). Then it's spray can carb cleaner and compressed air especially thru the internal passages. A little steel wool and elbow grease usually works if there is stubborn gunk. Although I really hate doing it if they are internally salvageable but bad on the outside I have been known to seal everything up and bead blast the outside to clean them up. It takes a long time and a lot of carb cleaner to clean them afterward though. I've never had a problem with a carb I've done this to, but that is usually a last resort.




Edited by Mike P (11/22/17 07:25 PM)
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2410018 - 11/28/17 06:36 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ

I spent the last few days sorting out the linkage for both pairs of AFBs. Building linkage on the bench is a lot easier than doing it stretched over a fender. The Carter 625s were already on the intake so I started with those. I set both pairs of carbs up for synchronized and progressive linkage so I can easily change over and find out what the engine likes best.

The synchronized linkage was a snap and took just a couple of minutes to set up.


DQS by M Patterson, on Flickr


The progressive linkage is just slightly more complicated but still pretty simple. It's so simple I just couldn't bring myself to spend $35 for a pre-made set so I spent about an hour building my own. I basically just copied the style used on the Chevys Dual Quad 409 cars.


DQ P by M Patterson, on Flickr


There is just enough difference between the throttle arms on the 625 CFM Carters and the Caddy AFBs that the linkage wouldn't directly interchange so I just built a second set for the Caddy carbs.


Cad afb s by M Patterson, on Flickr


Cad AFB P by M Patterson, on Flickr


Here's a shot of the other side with the fuel line.

DQFL by M Patterson, on Flickr

I've gone about as far as I can on the dual quads until it's time to install them. For now I'll throw a towel over them until I get some more Plymouth time.



.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
#2417284 - 12/12/17 09:51 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
67R/T4speeder Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1411
Loc: Pismo Beach,California
Nice job on that intake set-up
_________________________
Andy








www.troxellsgarage.com

Top
#2425252 - 12/29/17 02:54 AM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Cab_Burge Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 29967
Loc: Bend,OR USA
I've had several early Chrysler Fire Power Hemi (331 and several 300 C and D 392 motors) with the factory cast iron single plain dual 4 barrel intakes with stock progressive throttle linkage that I ended up converting to 1 to 1, which in my experience was much better driving in both the big old 300 cars with the push button cast iron torqueflytes and my 1933 Ford pick up street rod back with the early Ford stock three speed with the weak enclosed driveline and rear end in the mid 1960s wrench
I use to look for a aluminum dual plane dual 4 barrel intake for them but never saw one anywhere in SO CA after looking for 30+ yrs at the swap meets and races, how about you?
Your Plymouth looks good up
What part of AZ do you live in now?


Edited by Cab_Burge (12/29/17 02:55 AM)
_________________________
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Top
#2425493 - 12/29/17 04:36 PM Re: Revisiting the 57 Plymouth [Re: Mike P]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1348
Loc: AZ
I live a bit south of Tucson....down in the land of no smog testing.

Years ago I did a bit of normal maintenance work on a customers 55 300 but never had a chance to do any "playing" with the carbs or intake.

I did have a factory 1958 BB Dual Quad intake on a 69 440 I stuffed in a 57 Dodge Coronet many years ago. The design of the manifolds is pretty much identical........ BIG open plenum with a couple of 4 BBLs bolted to it and a large heat chamber cast into the bottom. My experience with that intake was that performance was noticeably better with a 1:1 ratio but mileage suffered by a couple miles to the gallon. I suspect my experience will be pretty much the same with this. I also recall that with that intake the engine was pretty cold blooded too, hopefully the MSD I'm running on the 57 will make a difference with that.

I used to do the swap meets a lot in the pre-internet days and it was very seldom that you saw ANY early Hemi parts. I only do about 1 meet a year now but it's still pretty much the same. I did score the Weiand Drag Star 6X2 intake that's on the 331 in my 37 Dodge at the Prescott Swap meet 25 years ago though. Seems most of the HEMI stuff usually gets shuffled around by word of mouth.
_________________________
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Tri Power, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10)
1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Advertisement
Sponsored Link
Forum Stats
25,078 Registered Members
32 Forums
185,679 Topics
2,158,675 Posts

Most users ever online: 882 @ 03/05/17 10:15 PM
Moparts Newest Topics
Seller says worth 50k restored. Better grab it quick
by 67DeLuxe
Today at 01:22 AM
My son's ride in a hemi Dart
by Jim_Lusk
Today at 12:44 AM
Correct alternator 3438172 for a 71 GTX/RR.
by cdp
Yesterday at 11:46 PM
Panhard bar
by sixpackgut
Yesterday at 09:40 PM