Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
#2389878
10/19/17 04:27 PM
10/19/17 04:27 PM
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6PakBee
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I'm seriously considering using a JVX adapter kit and putting a four speed automatic behind a stock 375 HP 440. It looks like a 42RH or 46RH would be suitable. I know nothing about the torque capabilities of either unit. Would the 42RH be adequate or would the 46RH be a better choice? Again, keep in mind my experience stopped with the late 70's Torqueflite so this is all uncharted territory.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2389891
10/19/17 04:45 PM
10/19/17 04:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Mike P
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The 46RH were based on the 727 Torqueflites and I believe the 42s are based on the lighter duty 904s. They didn't put 904s behind Big Blocks for a reason.
I used a 46RH in the 37 Dodge PU that I just got running. I'm impress enough with it I'm considering building another one to replace the 4 speed in my 57 Plymouth.
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold 1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold 1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears)
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: Kern Dog]
#2389926
10/19/17 05:55 PM
10/19/17 05:55 PM
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A727Tflite
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A9xx evolved in to 42/44RH then RE. A727trans evolved in to 46/47/48 RH/RE.
The numeric coding was adapted by most of the OE's to show number of speeds and relative torque capacity.
A500/518/618 are useless designations when you compare to the industry example above.
46 = 4/number of speeds and 6/relative torque capacity. 47 has same number of speeds as the 46 but more torque capacity, 48 same number of speeds but more torque capacity.
As for what to use, you don't mention what vehicle you are going to install the unit in. A passenger car used for normal driving would have no issues with a 42/44. It offers a lower first and second gear than the larger units, is lighter too. All of them have lockup. Consider that the 44 was used in Jeeps and light truck, so if the unit is built correctly you should have no issues.
If you are going to flog the unit more than drive it you may want to consider the large box.
Last edited by Transman; 10/19/17 05:56 PM.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2389935
10/19/17 06:15 PM
10/19/17 06:15 PM
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A727Tflite
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The three speed evolved in to the four speeds with the addition of the over drive assembly.
Last edited by Transman; 10/19/17 06:16 PM.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2389941
10/19/17 06:17 PM
10/19/17 06:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
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CSK
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I'm seriously considering using a JVX adapter kit and putting a four speed automatic behind a stock 375 HP 440. It looks like a 42RH or 46RH would be suitable. I know nothing about the torque capabilities of either unit. Would the 42RH be adequate or would the 46RH be a better choice? Again, keep in mind my experience stopped with the late 70's Torqueflite so this is all uncharted territory. You have to cut up the torsion bar x member, bang on the floor board & make a custom x member.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2389988
10/19/17 07:59 PM
10/19/17 07:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,894 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
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I put a 518 behind the Hemi last year. There is room for the 518s and there are plenty of them. The cores cost about the same and there is not a lot of money difference to rebuild each, so there is not much incentive for you to go with the lighter 500.
I did not have to do any crossmember cutting putting one into my 70 Cuda. There was one place that needed a 2 inch or so dent make in the floor board for clearance. I bought a fabbed crossmember, but they are not complicated to make. I am just not good at fabrication, so buying one already made was easier.
You will likely have the thing rebuilt before you put it in, so which one you start with (46, 47, 48) won't matter much in the end. As long as it's an RH (not RE) which had the small oval 2 or 3 pin connector.
The earliest 518s had the 2 pin connector. After a couple of years, they added the lock-up torque converter and the connector became a 3 pin to accommodate it.
I went with the non lock-up because there is a much better selection of torque converters. But for a milder street car, that might not be an issue and there can certainly be an argument made for the lockup. And they made the lock-up version longer, so there actually should be more of them.
If you have a competent 727 tranny guy locally, I feel the best bet is to grab a core at a salvage yard ($200+/-) and have it built the way you want it. That can be anywhere from $600 to $1,200.
Based on my experience, the cost of the swap could be anywhere from $1,000 to $2,500.
There are a number of threads around that detail the swap. One has step by step pictures. It is bit involved, but not too bad.
Master, again and still
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2390016
10/19/17 08:58 PM
10/19/17 08:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
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roadrunninMark
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The 42RH is a smaller case and uses less HP to drive it. Problem is in stock config it isn't very strong. You can build it to handle the power. It just costs more. a stock 375hp 440 is easily doable with a hopped up 42RH. Another nice thing about the 42 is the better gear spread, first gear is a 2.74 vs. 2.45 first gear. Second is 1.54 vs. 1.45. OD is same on both at .69. I am building one to go behind a small block that should have about 400hp. SMR is a great company to get parts/info. Also PATC has parts and reasonable prices on torque converters, I just ordered mine from them. Here is a great thread on the whole install and comments/questions...and of course wiring it up. GDonovan here has a great schematic too. http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=84774.0
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2390053
10/19/17 10:31 PM
10/19/17 10:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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A 440 doesn't need a lower first gear than 2.45, so that point is moot.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: Supercuda]
#2390112
10/20/17 12:18 AM
10/20/17 12:18 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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A 440 doesn't need a lower first gear than 2.45, so that point is moot.
My old M.W. stocker like the Mopar 2.77 low gear set at the drags That car ran low elevens back in the late 1980s on nine inch tires, that car liked the low gear set a lot. It out ran every Mopar M.W stocker in B/SA at the 1988 NHRA World finals I had heard of several other M.W. racers in 1964 cars that said that same gear set in their cars spun the tires But they didn't change the rear gear ratio like I did when I did that gear swap in the tranny If you don't test, you don't learn Some times you have to go sideways or backup to find what does work in testing
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/20/17 12:19 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2390132
10/20/17 01:03 AM
10/20/17 01:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,843 Pattison Texas
CSK
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I put a 518 behind the Hemi last year. There is room for the 518s and there are plenty of them. The cores cost about the same and there is not a lot of money difference to rebuild each, so there is not much incentive for you to go with the lighter 500.
I did not have to do any crossmember cutting putting one into my 70 Cuda. There was one place that needed a 2 inch or so dent make in the floor board for clearance. I bought a fabbed crossmember, but they are not complicated to make. I am just not good at fabrication, so buying one already made was easier.
You will likely have the thing rebuilt before you put it in, so which one you start with (46, 47, 48) won't matter much in the end. As long as it's an RH (not RE) which had the small oval 2 or 3 pin connector.
The earliest 518s had the 2 pin connector. After a couple of years, they added the lock-up torque converter and the connector became a 3 pin to accommodate it.
I went with the non lock-up because there is a much better selection of torque converters. But for a milder street car, that might not be an issue and there can certainly be an argument made for the lockup. And they made the lock-up version longer, so there actually should be more of them.
If you have a competent 727 tranny guy locally, I feel the best bet is to grab a core at a salvage yard ($200+/-) and have it built the way you want it. That can be anywhere from $600 to $1,200.
Based on my experience, the cost of the swap could be anywhere from $1,000 to $2,500.
There are a number of threads around that detail the swap. One has step by step pictures. It is bit involved, but not too bad. no cutting on an E body might be true, not so on my 1968 Charger.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2390263
10/20/17 12:47 PM
10/20/17 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
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...As for what to use, you don't mention what vehicle you are going to install the unit in.... Sorry, this would be going into a 1968 Charger. Thanks to everybody who commented. There is no substitute for this type of spirited discussion with a multitude of opinions and real world experience.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2390326
10/20/17 03:38 PM
10/20/17 03:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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The 904 evolved into the 500 which was later renamed the 42RH. The 727->518->46RH. 1996+ went to the RE models which are useless to you so make sure you don't get one of those.
I have read others who went to the GM 4 speed autos for better/cheaper aftermarket support and a smaller physical size to not have to cut. One day when I get off of my ass, I want to get one of those A41 4 speed kits from Silver Sport. They are based on the GM 700R4.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: Kern Dog]
#2390361
10/20/17 05:11 PM
10/20/17 05:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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One of my local customers did that conversion, took out a good 727 and put in a GM 250 4 speed over drive, lots of money and problems making it work and shift the way he wants it to. Two different converters and lots of labor so far and he is still not happy This went into a 1963 M.W. Fury with 3.23 gears, he said originally he wanted better mileage, it is a real nice drive to show car and doesn't get driven over 3000 miles a year. He later change the rear gear ratio from 3.23 to 3.55 to make it accelerate better The parts and pieces cost a bunch over what he will save in fuel cost if he doesn't start driving it over 30,000 a year My message is be careful of what you do to your car to make it better
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/20/17 05:12 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: Kern Dog]
#2390403
10/20/17 06:47 PM
10/20/17 06:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,618 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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One day when I get off of my ass, I want to get one of those A41 4 speed kits from Silver Sport. They are based on the GM 700R4.
Wise decision, the 700R4 is superior in all the areas discussed.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: IMGTX]
#2390531
10/20/17 10:15 PM
10/20/17 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
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This is the rest of the idea. I mocked up a paper crossmember that I later transferred to CAD and had laser cut. I folded it and welded it up. Fits good and the loop from bolts to bolts is seamless like the OEM so no fear of a weld breaking and the tranny falling out. That is slick!
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: IMGTX]
#2390561
10/20/17 10:52 PM
10/20/17 10:52 PM
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A727Tflite
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IMGTX- Did the engine remain at the normal angle or did you have to lower it in order to have the overdrive unit miss the floor board?
Last edited by Transman; 10/20/17 10:53 PM.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2390694
10/21/17 07:12 AM
10/21/17 07:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
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70RT Charger
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One day when I get off of my ass, I want to get one of those A41 4 speed kits from Silver Sport. They are based on the GM 700R4.
Wise decision, the 700R4 is superior in all the areas discussed. I like a 200-4R better but leave the Automatics to the women drivers
Last edited by 70RT Charger; 10/21/17 07:13 AM.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 70RT Charger]
#2390867
10/21/17 03:27 PM
10/21/17 03:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,574 Lakeland FL
floridian
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One day when I get off of my ass, I want to get one of those A41 4 speed kits from Silver Sport. They are based on the GM 700R4.
Wise decision, the 700R4 is superior in all the areas discussed. I like a 200-4R better but leave the Automatics to the women drivers My understanding is the 200 is based off the Turbo 350, while the 700 is based off the Turbo 400....
Last edited by floridian; 10/21/17 04:34 PM.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: Kern Dog]
#2391068
10/22/17 03:37 AM
10/22/17 03:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Evil Spirit
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The 904 evolved into the 500 which was later renamed the 42RH. The 727->518->46RH. 1996+ went to the RE models which are useless to you so make sure you don't get one of those.
I have read others who went to the GM 4 speed autos for better/cheaper aftermarket support and a smaller physical size to not have to cut. One day when I get off of my ass, I want to get one of those A41 4 speed kits from Silver Sport. They are based on the GM 700R4. Personally I prefer the driveability of a 200R4 over a 700R4 all day long, especially in a DD with a tight converter. The big 1-2 ratio drop on the 700R4 really can lug the motor down. I guess it depends on how picky you are on that sort of thing. And fitment is also usually better on the 200R4.
Free advice and worth every penny... Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: A727Tflite]
#2391081
10/22/17 07:05 AM
10/22/17 07:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575 The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
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IMGTX- Did the engine remain at the normal angle or did you have to lower it in order to have the overdrive unit miss the floor board? On A-bodies this is indeed what's happening, not sure on other models. I had to pound 'create' some extra space in the tunnel from beneath so the trans sat a bit higher on my '73 Dart. I chose the easy way out, but it would be best to just cut open the tunnel, position the transmission properly, and then reweld and form the tunnel back around the transmission/overdrive flange.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2391103
10/22/17 10:47 AM
10/22/17 10:47 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
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JAMESDART
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One day when I get off of my ass, I want to get one of those A41 4 speed kits from Silver Sport. They are based on the GM 700R4.
Wise decision, the 700R4 is superior in all the areas discussed. I put a t56 in my bb duster. Liked the overdrive in old car so much I swapped a 700r4 into my wagoneer trail truck. Worked great, for that the low 1st gear was awesome. These were not kits, stuff I did myself. I thought hmmm let me see what this sst kit will cost for the dart. wow! Talk about sticker shock.
Last edited by JAMESDART; 10/22/17 10:49 AM.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: dogdays]
#2392007
10/23/17 07:56 PM
10/23/17 07:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,574 Lakeland FL
floridian
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The 700R4 was based on the Turbo Hydro 350.
The TH2004R was based on a different transmission, all the information is available online in several places. Neither was based on the Turbo Hydro 400. The 4L80E, 4L85E, 6L80 and 6L90 were based on theTH400. I'm not sure about the 8L90.
R. TY for updating my incorrect info....
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: floridian]
#2392864
10/25/17 12:56 PM
10/25/17 12:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,239 north of coder
moparx
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The 700R4 was based on the Turbo Hydro 350.
The TH2004R was based on a different transmission, all the information is available online in several places. Neither was based on the Turbo Hydro 400. The 4L80E, 4L85E, 6L80 and 6L90 were based on theTH400. I'm not sure about the 8L90.
R. TY for updating my incorrect info.... very interesting, as i have read lots of printed material that clearly states the 700R4 WAS based on the TH400. my local trans guy has shown me the later L80 series parts comparison[s] between them and the TH400, but we never discussed the 700R4. thank you for the information ! just goes to show it's possible to teach an OLD guy[dog] new tricks !
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: moparx]
#2393071
10/25/17 08:58 PM
10/25/17 08:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,894 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
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Looks like the biggest down side to putting a GM based tranny in your Mopar is money. The GM based kits look to cost over a grand more than the Mopar based stuff.
Master, again and still
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2393084
10/25/17 09:28 PM
10/25/17 09:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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About to go away
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It uses a flexplate with a ring gear because the GM torque converter doesn't have a ring gear mounted to it. Nothing to do with relocation.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 451Mopar]
#2393117
10/25/17 10:24 PM
10/25/17 10:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
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The J.W Performance Ultra Bell makes the conversion a bit easier. Hmm. The Ultra Bell looks interesting. The JVX reminds me of the Trans-Dapt adapters that used to pretty much adapt anything to anything. Looks like the current offerings are pretty slim.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2393417
10/26/17 04:27 PM
10/26/17 04:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,574 Lakeland FL
floridian
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pro stock
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Looks like the biggest down side to putting a GM based tranny in your Mopar is money. The GM based kits look to cost over a grand more than the Mopar based stuff. That would be the first time ever a GM part was more money than Moparts...
Last edited by floridian; 10/26/17 04:27 PM.
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2393663
10/27/17 02:34 AM
10/27/17 02:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
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MarkZ
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The J.W Performance Ultra Bell makes the conversion a bit easier. Hmm. The Ultra Bell looks interesting. The JVX reminds me of the Trans-Dapt adapters that used to pretty much adapt anything to anything. Looks like the current offerings are pretty slim. Ultra Bell is the way to go. Just used one to bolt a 46RH behind a 512 stroker. Nothing special done to the transmission either other than a re-freshening. Seems to be holding up just fine.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: MarkZ]
#2393762
10/27/17 12:09 PM
10/27/17 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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6PakBee
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Ultra Bell is the way to go. Just used one to bolt a 46RH behind a 512 stroker. Nothing special done to the transmission either other than a re-freshening. Seems to be holding up just fine. So you cut back to the edge of the front pan rail? From the Ultra Bell literature it locates off the front pump. Does it fit over the face of the pump? Do you have to dial it in like you would a manual bell housing? It's shame you didn't have a picture from the front with the bell installed. That looks clean.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2393776
10/27/17 12:35 PM
10/27/17 12:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
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CSK
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Here is mine I put behind my 512,
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: CSK]
#2393792
10/27/17 01:02 PM
10/27/17 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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6PakBee
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Here is mine I put behind my 512, So the machined surface of the Ultra Bell bolts up against the as-cast face of the front pump. Wouldn't you run into some parallelism issues as the front pump face isn't a machined surface?
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: 6PakBee]
#2393926
10/27/17 06:59 PM
10/27/17 06:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
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CSK
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master
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Here is mine I put behind my 512, So the machined surface of the Ultra Bell bolts up against the as-cast face of the front pump. Wouldn't you run into some parallelism issues as the front pump face isn't a machined surface? the front side of the pump is machined, the JW bell is made for many applications, it is used on MANY race,street cars with no problems.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Four Speed Overdrive Automatic
[Re: CSK]
#2394179
10/28/17 11:32 AM
10/28/17 11:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666 North Dakota
6PakBee
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,666
North Dakota
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Here is mine I put behind my 512, So the machined surface of the Ultra Bell bolts up against the as-cast face of the front pump. Wouldn't you run into some parallelism issues as the front pump face isn't a machined surface? the front side of the pump is machined, the JW bell is made for many applications, it is used on MANY race,street cars with no problems. Thank you for setting the record straight. I was just confused.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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