So, I want to build up my Indy block. I've been told not to go over 4.500" stroke by so called "People in the know". I've asked about CCW cranks. Everyone agrees that they are better. But I haven't received a straight answer on if it's worth it for my build. I understand it is easier on main bearings, but $150/set of main bearings compared to doubling or tripling the cost of the crank. If that is the only benefit, I might as well stay with a standard crank. Engine will be around 572 or slightly larger, not turning much past 7,000 rpm.

Obviously, the lesser you pay for a CCW crank, the more worth it it becomes. Ohio crank sells a billet 4.5 for $1650. I would assume that has center counterweights. Or you could look for a good used alcohol crank. I scored a used moldex billet stroker with center counter weights, checked straight and crack free, for just over a grand. That was worth it in my opinion.

Agreed. But not all alcohol cranks are CCW. The question is "Do I need this for a 1,000 hp N/A combo that is only going to turn around 7,000 rpm?"

If I'm not spinning it to the moon, and I'm not boosting or adding nitrous to make 1,500+ hp, how necessary is a CCW crank? To me, changing out bearings at the end of the race season wouldn't be a big deal, if that's all there is. But if the engine runs smoother and develops more power due to less torsional twist, it might be something to consider.

Well, most engines don't have it. On your motor, ccw's would probably be an attempt to fix a problem that doesn't exist. But don't we all love to do that when building a big moter? Just in case?

A few months ago I got a price for ccw billet hemi crank from Bryant for $3024 and I thought that was a good price considering that the same crank from Callies was $4300. I know it does not answer your question but just a little tid bit on the pricing.

Ohio Crankshaft has billet CCW cranks for $1645. But is it necessary over their $720 4340 crank? Or is it overkill for what I am building?

You are correct, just looked at there web site and $1645 for the hemi ccw billet crank. Would have to have a register cut on the back side. Most people running in that hp range are using a standard forged crank from what I have read.

Once you buy a ccw crank, you have a unit that should never fail. I cracked a 4.15 stroke crank at 100 runs, and upgraded to a Crower CCW made of 304m steel. Since you are pushing piston speed and crank loading pretty high with a 4.5 stroke and 7,000++ rpm, I would go CCW.

Billet CCW shouldn't cost much if any more than non-CCW. The material is already there in a billet so CCW is most likely less machine time since the material doesn't have to be cut away.

I don't know the answer to your question but if I wanted the answer myself I'd call some people who have experience building big power engines and see what they say. It shouldn't take more than a couple of phone calls to get the answer.

There is a good read from "Engine Labs" regarding crankshafts.

For this build, I think it's overkill to go w/ a CCW crank. No downsides other than cost, but I don't think it needs it.

I'd love to hear more on the reasoning not to go over 4.5" stroke by those "people in the know" you referred to earlier.

The center counterweights do more than protect main bearings. They reduce the flexing load on the main bearing bulkheads by putting more of the counterweights closer to where they are needed.

It's sort of like the switch from external to internal balance.

R.

That's what I was thinking. $1600 is cheap at that power level to reduce stress on the lower block area.

So many great big CI engines run and make 1000HP without it
If you are going to ask --call Charlie Buck in King NC
He is in your hood and will have an opinion and answer based on probably more experience in big Mopars than anywhere else
Can't go in that place that Marsh does not have a big Hemi or wedge Monster on the pump--They know!

My motor has Mopar Mega block. Don't know whose crank but it was purchased from Indy as a short block well over 10 years ago. It's been in my motor 5 years. The 4.5" crank has a Pentastar stamped in it. Not a pretty "finished bull nosed counterweight" piece. Looks almost like a factory 440 crank. It was used when I got it. I've put around 550 passes at 7000-7200 rpm. Never had an issue. Motor makes somewhere around 900 hp. After my last tear down (300 passes)the rod bearings looked new. Mains were ready for replacement, but not horrible.
Doug

Got a reply from Ohio Crank today and they said the billet can only be made with Chrysler journals.

Well, since I don't want to run with anything larger than BBC journals, the billet piece is out.
From the info I have gathered, I have learned that 1) aluminum rods will not clear the cam with crank strokes longer than 4.500" and 2) crank strokes longer than 4.500" will cause excessive piston skirt wear.
Interesting enough, I have read somewhere about a new piston being made with an asymmetric skirt, favoring the major thrust side. Maybe just for this kind of build.

Happy Birthday, Chip!

That doesn't seem to make sense. I can understand a forged crank only available in a certain journal size but billet is billet. It is all being machined anyway so all they have to do is punch a few buttons and then instant presto you have 2.200 rod journals.

If I got an answer like that from a place claiming to make billet cranks I'd move on down the line. I'm pretty sure if you call Winberg or Bryant or some other place that makes billet cranks and ask them if they can make the cranks with different rod journals they'll tell you sure. They can probably make each journal a different size if you want to pay for it. Someone at Ohio Crank either doesn't know what they are talking about or else they aren't really billet cranks. Or perhaps the cranks are made by someone else and Ohio Crank just sells them......

My pops engine has a Ohio center weighted crank and has 2.2" rod journals? Possibly reground but was a new piece when he acquired it in a short block. Would be hard to tell if it was reground thou. Looks like a nice piece.

I bought a old Bryant top fuel full counter weighted 4.250 stroke years ago, it had spun the #1 and 2 rod bearings on the original Mopar size rod journals.
I had it magged and then offset ground to 4.375 stroke with 2.200 rod journals, I'm going to use it in my Koleno high nickel iron block to make a 555 C.I. race motor with a set of B1-MC heads, I'm hoping to make right at or above 2.0 HP per C.I.
Gregs Dart convinced me about using full counter weight stroker cranks several years ago so I'm hoping for good results
I wish I had enough extra money for a fully light weight version of that same crank, but I don't

All I will say on the subject is pretty much EVERY high end race motor out(WOO, Nascar F1, SCORE etc etc)out there uses center counter weighted cranks. Must be a reason.

It's possible to cut factory Mopar cranks to 2.200", but not a billet? UHHMMM?
Doug

You may be able to have the rod journals cut to bbc size by another grinder, if you decide you want an Ohio ccw crank

You don't need aluminum rods for a N/A bracket motor. If it were me, I'd be running a good steel rod in that motor. Less maintenance and there's really no benefit as far as weight.
Not to mention you can go w/ more than a 4.5" stroke in a std. cam height block if you want. Just me, but I really wouldn't be concerned w/ a little skirt wear on a motor like this. It isn't gonna be driven 50k miles back and forth to work.

With a.9 mm ring pack and Molnar 7.100"/2.2000"/.990" steel rods my reciprocating weight was actually lighter than with the BME aluminum rods. The rotating weight was so close that we trimmed a little from the journal side to rebalance.
Doug

Wow. That's good to know. I just thought that aluminum rods always weighed significantly less than steel rods.

No need for a CCW crank in a street or drag race piece. It is overkill but couldn't hurt anything other than the wallet. In a endurance type racing as mentioned above NASCAR, F1, Off Shore Boat Racing, Truck & Tracvtor Pulling etc where engines sustain long durations of higher RPM is would be beneficial.

The main benefit of aluminum rods in what we do is to help the bottom end --keeps caps from walking even on Megablocks--they act like a dead blow hammer--it used to be one of the ways we kept stock blocks alive when -1 Indys first started making some real HP--they are all about the main caps not weight--and in a stroker like you plan steel rods are sooo much easier to get in there and not hit the cam etc so if you have an Indy block or KB block then it becomes less critical
Again I say Charlie Buck has built more 1000--3000 Hp engines than all of us on here combined --ask someone that really has the experience and knows

I was very surprised when I read their email and they suggested their forged piece. The price of $3024 from Bryant works but it would be nice if they could be at a $2000 mark.

The problem with aluminum rods for me is that they have a short life span. I can't afford to buy a new set of $1300 rods after 300 passes. At a higher power level of course better parts are required. It's up to each individual as to how much they gamble on a part. That's why I posted here. My experience with the parts I mentioned have been trouble free for the number of passes at the stroke and RPM run in my motor. I've put over 500 runs on the crank. My bet is it had at least 200 on when I received it.
Doug

Due to actual experience, I disagree. That cap walk in my Megablock DID go away when I put the ccw crank in. I cracked a non ccw crank at 100 runs, so the least it cost me to fix that was the crank and balancing. Another reason to run a ccw crank would be to add life to a stock block motor pushing the limits. It will definitely even out the stresses from balance, not force them through the block to other bearings adjacent; adding a lot of extra stress along the way. Save the cost of replacing a cracked and broken block one time and that ccw crank will look cheap.

DVW, what stroke and RPM are you running? Have you seen any advantages to a 9mm ring pack over a standard 1/16" 1/16" 3/32" ring pack?

Kenny...you have a good block that doesn't have problems w/ cap walk. You also are building a naturally aspirated bracket motor that will see a lot of runs. That does not fall into aluminum rod territory IMO, unless you just like wasting money. They will offer you no benefit and won't save any weight, but you'll have to change them out for a new set after 300 or so runs.

Fun Fact
That 300 run zone has been the CW for as long as I can remember
I guess that is what Bill Miller says and he sure is about 100 times smarter than I am but
I used to buy aluminum BME's used from McCandless or wherever I could get them--and run them in bracket 440's that saw 200 plus runs per year sometimes 300 runs a season--I never ever had one fail in that application
Have had some engines run for years with them well into the 700 run zone in a bracket 440
BME says make a few runs--resize them and run until you get enough $$ to buy more--he also says release the TQ on the bolts over the winter--I am SURE he is right about all that but just saying--I think we had nothing at risk but a stock block--If I had a high $$ block etc I would be much more careful
Sort of like Dad told me
You get a Shetland pony you tie him to the swing set and let him eat the onions in the yard--you get a thorough bred and you have to clean his oats, get him a goat for a barn pal, wash him like a new Porsche, etc etc

guess I have always had the ponys

With that long arm and only racing this engine, especially if you plan on racing Super Gas, I would do everything in my power to make the recip as light as possible with a CW for each rod journal. Why not at this point? IF Super Gas is where you will race and of course you want to be competitive, I think it will go past 7,000rpm. Aluminum rods are up to you but at >900hp power levels I would stick to the BME r&r program. Of course this is all money permitting. My worth...

DVW, what stroke and RPM are you running? Have you seen any advantages to a 9mm ring pack over a standard 1/16" 1/16" 3/32" ring pack?
[/quote]
4.5" stroke, it runs 7000-7200. It had .043" ring pack previously. Not much difference that I see. Still have the 4.500" Wiseco pistons, flat top, big valve reliefs, .043"ring pack as well as the matched BME rods (7.150"x 2.200'x.990"). They are 426 forgings.
Doug

Here is my .02. Buy a center counter weighted crank and aluminum rods but aint my money....

Don't listen to me, I run a 440source 4.5 crank with GRP aluminum rods. Been 150mph in the 1/8

As someone who has been involved in a few hundred motors like the kind in question, simple advise is.....Use the best parts you can afford. Look in the National Dragster or Racing Junk and see what kind of engines are the brand X guys selling and using to go your desired speed. Then build accordingly. Stop driving yourself mental trying to keep up on the latest thought or theory that may or may not have anything to do with building power or longevity. To the OP I have used both kinds of cranks at your power level and honestly do not see a "major"advantage either way. I do know that at that level the better quality cranks do seem to look better on tear down as do the bearings. Just an observation from the cheap seats.
Todd

So I questioned Ohio on the reasoning of this and was told "Because we buy the billets already roughed to size. We have to buy minimum quantities."

Stan

And it's impossible to take off a little more material.

I'm sure for the right money, I could get Ohio crank to grind BBC journals on it, maybe even add an indexing ring for a flywheel. Still should only be around $2,000 total.