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#2378240 - 09/28/17 10:56 AM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
If you have a deep alum pan it should have a drain plug correct ? If so you can always drain it into a clean pan and reuse it , drop the pan and look at the dipstick when it's installed to exactly where the full line is when the stick is installed.

I know it's messy but you will know exactly where it is .
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#2378283 - 09/28/17 12:06 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
jwb123 Offline
member

Registered: 11/17/15
Posts: 183
Loc: Missouri
Don't know if you have a shop near that has one, but I have seen torque converters crack, usually close to the welds where the sections go together. They make a fixture to put air pressure in the converter when it is on the bench to check for leaks. See guys chase their tails a lot before they figured it out.

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#2378323 - 09/28/17 01:28 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
John_Kunkel Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19697
Loc: Rio Linda, CA
Originally Posted By reno340
I have rebuilt the transmission, put in a new torque converter, new front pump bushing and seals and I got a leak again.
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I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.

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#2378325 - 09/28/17 01:31 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
reno340 Offline


Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 386
Loc: Maryland
I did remove the lines and blew the cooler and lines out with compressed air. I lost enough tranny fluid that it touches the dipstick about 1/4 inch. It is quite a ways from the full line. In park, no leak. in neutral, if starts pouring out the bell housing. This is frustrating. I seem to keep on fixing the same stuff.
_________________________
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games"
- Earnest Hemmingway


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU

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#2378349 - 09/28/17 02:02 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
reno340 Offline


Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 386
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By reno340
Originally Posted By JohnRR
You are going to have to pull the trans to relocate the vent, part of relocating the vent is the block the one in the pump housing, you can't do that with it in the car.

Did you do anything to modify the the front drum so it expels more fluid when venting? Is the plastic baffle for the vent cover intact inside the trans ? stock drum or a billet drum with a larger piston that requires the vent to be modified ?


I did put in a front drum from a diesel ram but it was early enough that it fit. The valve body was also changed to a Chetah forward pattern manual valve body. I have a 2400 stall converter in it too but if pretty much feels little to no different than the old one.
The pump in front of the tranny is probably from the older transmission I had looked up the tranny and the numbers showed it to be from a '66 small block C body. Any ideas? Do I need a different pump? If so, from what year?
_________________________
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games"
- Earnest Hemmingway


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU

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#2378412 - 09/28/17 04:20 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
John_Kunkel Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19697
Loc: Rio Linda, CA

Fluid leaking from the front vent isn't endemic to the Torqueflite under normal usage, something is causing the leakage and band-aids like relocating the vent won't fix it.
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I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.

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#2378429 - 09/28/17 04:56 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
Transman Offline
super stock

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 804
Loc: Michigan
Two style pumps housings - vent wise. Early style used a metal shield inside and attached to the support with two of the bolts - the shield covered the actual vent passage on the inside while another metal shield was used on the converter side and attached using two of the pump to case bolts.

Later design used a plastic whistle on the inside held in place with a "nail" ( not your normal wood nail but that's what they were called ). No shield on the bell side. If you are using the early style make sure you have that tin shield on the inside.

You mention leaks in neutral - how about in drive but not moving ? Everything is stationary inside in d or r if the car is stationary. If it leaks then you likely have something more serious going on.

One other thing to look for if you take it apart again - the pump bore where the pump fits the case - check at 6 o'clock - sometimes the soft plugs in the perimeter of the pump housing can get pushed out and when the pump was removed it left deep scratches in the case bore. This was more of a problem in the 2000 - 2005 time frame on 46/47/48 transmissions but something to be aware of. In some cases the soft plug fell out - this would cause a leak at certain times depending what circuit was affected.

All else fails refer to the earlier service manuals for checking for leaks using air pressure.
We check all our Reman transmission using Uson air decay - you can do the same basic test using air pressure and snoop - soapy water sprayed on the pump to case joint and bolts, front band pivot shaft plug and the converter impeller hub.


Edited by Transman (09/28/17 06:35 PM)

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#2378507 - 09/28/17 08:01 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: John_Kunkel]
reno340 Offline


Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 386
Loc: Maryland
I agree whole heartedly. I don't want a band aid fix. The more I read from the replies, the more I was convinced that I was not interested in relocating the vent. I just don't know why this thing is doing this. I had this happen when I first got the car out. I then rebuilt the tranny. I put in a new reman torque converter in it. The following year, I had the motor out for a rebuild and was going to put in a new B&M torque converter since I upgraded the motor. When I pulled it to put the new converter in, I noticed the torque converter that I put in was scarred a little where it goes into the pump. so I took out the pump and had a tranny shop put in a new seal and bushing. Everything installed smoothly. so after running it some, I thought it was ok. A couple of days ago I took it up the highway. Fluid was pouring out of the front of the bellhousing. This is frustrating as the build went smoothly and the transmission works really well. I have a manual valve body in it that gives me incredibly firm shifts.
Help!!!!
_________________________
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games"
- Earnest Hemmingway


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU

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#2378508 - 09/28/17 08:04 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: Transman]
reno340 Offline


Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 386
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By Transman
Two style pumps housings - vent wise. Early style used a metal shield inside and attached to the support with two of the bolts - the shield covered the actual vent passage on the inside while another metal shield was used on the converter side and attached using two of the pump to case bolts.

Later design used a plastic whistle on the inside held in place with a "nail" ( not your normal wood nail but that's what they were called ). No shield on the bell side. If you are using the early style make sure you have that tin shield on the inside.

You mention leaks in neutral - how about in drive but not moving ? Everything is stationary inside in d or r if the car is stationary. If it leaks then you likely have something more serious going on.

One other thing to look for if you take it apart again - the pump bore where the pump fits the case - check at 6 o'clock - sometimes the soft plugs in the perimeter of the pump housing can get pushed out and when the pump was removed it left deep scratches in the case bore. This was more of a problem in the 2000 - 2005 time frame on 46/47/48 transmissions but something to be aware of. In some cases the soft plug fell out - this would cause a leak at certain times depending what circuit was affected.

All else fails refer to the earlier service manuals for checking for leaks using air pressure.
We check all our Reman transmission using Uson air decay - you can do the same basic test using air pressure and snoop - soapy water sprayed on the pump to case joint and bolts, front band pivot shaft plug and the converter impeller hub.
I have the earlier metal vent
_________________________
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games"
- Earnest Hemmingway


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU

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#2378628 - 09/28/17 11:53 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 4995
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Originally Posted By reno340
Originally Posted By Transman
Two style pumps housings - vent wise. Early style used a metal shield inside and attached to the support with two of the bolts - the shield covered the actual vent passage on the inside while another metal shield was used on the converter side and attached using two of the pump to case bolts.

Later design used a plastic whistle on the inside held in place with a "nail" ( not your normal wood nail but that's what they were called ). No shield on the bell side. If you are using the early style make sure you have that tin shield on the inside.

You mention leaks in neutral - how about in drive but not moving ? Everything is stationary inside in d or r if the car is stationary. If it leaks then you likely have something more serious going on.

One other thing to look for if you take it apart again - the pump bore where the pump fits the case - check at 6 o'clock - sometimes the soft plugs in the perimeter of the pump housing can get pushed out and when the pump was removed it left deep scratches in the case bore. This was more of a problem in the 2000 - 2005 time frame on 46/47/48 transmissions but something to be aware of. In some cases the soft plug fell out - this would cause a leak at certain times depending what circuit was affected.

All else fails refer to the earlier service manuals for checking for leaks using air pressure.
We check all our Reman transmission using Uson air decay - you can do the same basic test using air pressure and snoop - soapy water sprayed on the pump to case joint and bolts, front band pivot shaft plug and the converter impeller hub.
I have the earlier metal vent


The earlier pump with same year support should not be compatible with the later diesel drum unless the support was changed to a newer style?

I looked to find the cost of that Sonnax regulator valve, and they are fairly expensive. Best price I found so far was from E-Bay at about $40. Anyone know of a lower price source?

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#2378639 - 09/29/17 12:31 AM Re: A-727 help [Re: 451Mopar]
reno340 Offline


Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 386
Loc: Maryland
What year support are we looking at?
_________________________
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games"
- Earnest Hemmingway


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU

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#2378641 - 09/29/17 12:54 AM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
reno340 Offline


Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 386
Loc: Maryland
_________________________
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games"
- Earnest Hemmingway


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU

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#2378648 - 09/29/17 01:43 AM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 4995
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
I believe that in 1971 and up the front drum was changed to use a wider bushing (not sure if the sealing ring spacing changed?), and the pump support for the drum was changed because of that. That is why when you said you had an early pump with later drum, it might be a mis-match in parts? The later pumps with the baffle can still puke fluid. I just tap the front vent hole with an NPT tap and put a plug it it, and re-locate the vent to the back of the case. That way I know a leak in the pump area is not coming from the vent.
If you have Carl Monroes' torque flight handbook, I think it covers the modification.

https://www.amazon.com/Torqueflite-727-Transmission-Handbook-HP1399/dp/1557883998

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#2378664 - 09/29/17 02:49 AM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
Transman Offline
super stock

Registered: 03/27/11
Posts: 804
Loc: Michigan
Regarding the front drum to support bushing - there are two reaction shaft support bushing sizes from 1962 - 2008, narrow and wide. The metal seal ring spacing never changed on the wide bushing support.
I think you can install the wide bushing drum on a narrow bushing support and the unit will assemble - that is not suggested and I cannot see how that could cause a leak like the op has but who knows. Good catch.

There is absolutely no reason to change the vent location on a non-transbrake application.
Millions of vehicles without an issue. And a bunch used in racing without issue too.

I would start with the oil level verification suggested. If that doesn't produce results then time to get deeper.

The Sonnax regulator valve is not needed either. A pump with proper internal clearances will prime the system and fill the converter in a few seconds. It's a nice addition if you want to spend the money but it's not going to fix this transmission problem.


Edited by Transman (09/29/17 02:54 AM)

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#2378692 - 09/29/17 07:53 AM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
80fbody Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Mass.
I'd personally pickup a good used trans and put that one under the bench. You'll waste more time in money chasing what is likely some part mismatch in the rebuild. Save it for a parts mule.
_________________________
1980 RoadRunner 360,4 speed,4:10 ---------------- 1968 Dart 451/727/4:30

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#2378774 - 09/29/17 10:26 AM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
FurryStump Offline
master

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 2543
Loc: Connecticut
So there really are only six areas that can leak in the bell housing. Having eliminated the converter.
1) converter hub lip seal. Been replaced along with bushing.
2) interference fit of outside of that seal. Been replaced by two different people.
3) o-ring on perimeter of pump housing. Hasn't been checked yet.
4) pump housing bolts. No rubber washers? Don't know.
5) vent puking. Fluid level has been check in neutral while hot.
6) cracked case. Unknown.

Where in these six areas does the pressure of, or amount of fluid increase when the converter is charged?
Don't think it is the o-ring because I don't think it see's more pressure when the converter is charged. Unless line presure is leaking by the paper gasket and then the o ring. But line pressure is always present there.
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#2379023 - 09/29/17 05:54 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: Transman]
John_Kunkel Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19697
Loc: Rio Linda, CA
Originally Posted By Transman
Regarding the front drum to support bushing - there are two reaction shaft support bushing sizes from 1962 - 2008, narrow and wide. The metal seal ring spacing never changed on the wide bushing support.
I think you can install the wide bushing drum on a narrow bushing support and the unit will assemble


The ring spacing did change to compensate for the wider bushing. Narrow bushing drum will fit on wide bushing support but ring location will be wrong. Wide bushing drum won't physically fit on narrow bushing support.


Attachments
RSsupports.jpg


_________________________
I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.

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#2379033 - 09/29/17 06:15 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: FurryStump]
reno340 Offline


Registered: 03/26/05
Posts: 386
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By FurryStump
So there really are only six areas that can leak in the bell housing. Having eliminated the converter.
1) converter hub lip seal. Been replaced along with bushing.
2) interference fit of outside of that seal. Been replaced by two different people.
3) o-ring on perimeter of pump housing. Hasn't been checked yet.
4) pump housing bolts. No rubber washers? Don't know.
5) vent puking. Fluid level has been check in neutral while hot.
6) cracked case. Unknown.

Where in these six areas does the pressure of, or amount of fluid increase when the converter is charged?
Don't think it is the o-ring because I don't think it see's more pressure when the converter is charged. Unless line presure is leaking by the paper gasket and then the o ring. But line pressure is always present there.


1) correct
2) good tranny shop did it
3) brand new O Ring when I put the pump back in during the rebuild. The housing was clean and smooth and the paper gasket was new. I didn't use sealer on it but I didn't see where anyone had done it before me. The paper gasket is on right because I used a bolt with the head cut off to index it.
4) I had gotten new washers in the kit that I used but I don't remember them being rubber. Neither were the ones that were on before.
5) At this point, I lost enough fluid that the fluid barely touches the dipstick when hot and idling in neutral.
6) I didn't see any cracks. Like I said, clean and smooth around the pump.
_________________________
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games"
- Earnest Hemmingway


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU

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#2379046 - 09/29/17 06:58 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: reno340]
John_Kunkel Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19697
Loc: Rio Linda, CA

I'm still thinking your dipstick is lying and the trans is overfull.
_________________________
I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.

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#2379070 - 09/29/17 08:06 PM Re: A-727 help [Re: John_Kunkel]
451Mopar Offline
master

Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 4995
Loc: Aurora, Colorado
Originally Posted By John_Kunkel
Originally Posted By Transman
Regarding the front drum to support bushing - there are two reaction shaft support bushing sizes from 1962 - 2008, narrow and wide. The metal seal ring spacing never changed on the wide bushing support.
I think you can install the wide bushing drum on a narrow bushing support and the unit will assemble


The ring spacing did change to compensate for the wider bushing. Narrow bushing drum will fit on wide bushing support but ring location will be wrong. Wide bushing drum won't physically fit on narrow bushing support.


Thanks for posting the photo. That was what I was trying to explain.

Relocating the vent is not really a band-aid, it just removes one possible source the fluid can come from in the bell housing area.
I usually only noticed small amounts of ATF that got out of the vent with high RPM runs.
If your dumping alot of fluid, then there is other problems.
Either way, the trans is going to have to be removed.
Might be able to remove the valve body and air-pressure check the trans, to see it you can hear leaking from the converter or pump housing area.
I think some of the pumps front bolt holes are open to the inside of the case, so a loose bolt (not sure how bad the leak would be if missing the sealing washer?) or stripped case threads could result in a leak, along with the plug for the front band pivot shaft.
And that is if the leak is not from the pump seals, gaskets, or converter.

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