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It gets worse #2365222
09/04/17 03:10 PM
09/04/17 03:10 PM
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sgcuda Offline OP
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Well, I set all the lifters at 0 lash + whatever preload I could get just to triple check P/V clearance. All good. Decided to check valve lift. Not super accurate, but used a digital caliper against the spring and edge of cup. .719" intake, .687" exhaust. Uhh, but the cam with the 1.7 rockers were supposed to be closer to .767" I and .715" E. Go to book. Looks like I got 1.6 ratio rockers, not 1.7 that I was told. Well, I can run the engine up like this, but with the lift I now have, I know my springs are all wrong. My choices are to swap springs or swap cam. The engine will never make the power I wanted with the valve lift it has. Plus, I've been told my cam is a little small, anyway, for my 500 (269/276 @ .050"). What to do?

Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365226
09/04/17 03:14 PM
09/04/17 03:14 PM
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Rockers flex.

I'll bet if you did the same check with light checking springs, solid lifters, and zero lash the numbers would be closer to spec.

These are the things you discover during the mock ups.

The only way you'd ever know if the higher lift actually made any more power is to test it.

I'll refer you to the rocker test Andy did on the TF heads........ And I have experienced similar results as that numerous times.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365234
09/04/17 03:26 PM
09/04/17 03:26 PM
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Fast: Man, that seems like a lot of flex, especially for high end rockers. but you know more about this stuff than I do. .050" seems like a lot. Than why shouldn't we be aiming at cam lifts above what we need knowing that there will be significant losses? Just trying to learn.


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365236
09/04/17 03:28 PM
09/04/17 03:28 PM
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I see from your other thread you have Jesels.

You have the adjusters out too far, which lowers the ratio.

There should be a number code on the rocker which tells what they are(offset, ratio, etc.)


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365239
09/04/17 03:33 PM
09/04/17 03:33 PM
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I'll check


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365244
09/04/17 03:36 PM
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If you know you "need" .800 net lift at the valve(for example), then you would have a cam ground with enough lobe lift to get you there....... After flex/deflection and lash.

That's fairly common practice for a high level build.

Not all rockers have the same level of rigidity, and not all rockers are built with the exact ratio.

For example, the last set of 1.6 HS rockers I checked were 1.67 unloaded, and were still slightly over 1.62 with 700lbs of pressure on them.

I had some Hughes 1.6 rockers that checked out at just under 1.6 unloaded, and were down to 1.51-1.52 with 600lbs of pressure.

You need to know what you have to know how to get where you want.


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Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365252
09/04/17 03:44 PM
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No part numbers on rockers, but I did find "1.7" stamped into the sides. I know they are not copycats because the steel rocker beam (for lack of a better term) is stamped "Jesel". Looks like you are right about this. I appreciate the help and relief. Now I need to figure out if I want to get offset lifters first, or just run what I got and get the right pushrods. I am guessing that the straighter the pushrod, the less valvetrain problems you will have.


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365349
09/04/17 07:08 PM
09/04/17 07:08 PM
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Best I can remember from my highschool geometry class, it also depends on how the ratio is measured, the rocker ratio is going to give you the most lift multiplication when the center of the roller tip to the center of the rocker pivot line is exactly perpendicular to the valve center line, this generally happens between 1/2 and 2/3rds lift depending on what tran of thought is followed in setting up the geometry. If you measure ratio only at max lift you will need a rocker that gives you more actual ratio at mid lifts. PR length and valve angle as well as some other stuff can all throw a wrench in the calculations.


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365395
09/04/17 08:19 PM
09/04/17 08:19 PM
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Fast: You were dead on. Pulled a set of rockers out to check the pushrods. Comp Engineering. 8701 .080" wall 9.800" length on exhaust. 8702 .080" wall 9.850" length intake. Put the 8702 on the exhaust side. 1 1/4 turns when adjusted to .010" lash. Rechecked lift .710". Right where it is supposed to be. I just need to find a set of 8 # 8703 pushrods or the equivalent for the intake side. They are available from Summit. Any Comp dealers on here I can help support? Or does anyone have a half set of 9.900" 3/8 wall pushrods for sale?


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365400
09/04/17 08:28 PM
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The lift is checked at zero lash.

The big offset on the intake rocker will usually end up costing you a little bit of ratio(lift).

The pushrods should be available as a set of 8, or at the least individually.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365407
09/04/17 08:40 PM
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Yes. I did recheck at zero lash. The first time, I checked with .010" lash, which I now realize messed up my numbers. With the new pushrod at zero, the lift is only .005" off.


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365411
09/04/17 08:47 PM
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Are these pushrods for a solid flat tappet lifters or are you running a solid roller lifter cam with these pushrods?
BTW, I think you should recheck the lift at the retainers with a dial indicator with checking springs and then again with the race springs scope That can be very enlightening as Fast has already pointed out, pushrod defection is directly related to the pushrod diameter and wall thickness as well as quality of parts used by the manufacturer work twocents

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/04/17 08:51 PM.

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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365412
09/04/17 08:47 PM
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Only .005 off with full spring load?

That's really good.

If the adjuster screw were right at 1 turn, it might be even closer.

As a little test, you could set the adjuster right at 1 turn, then just fill the gap between the roller and valve with feeler gauges.......then check the lift at the retainer.


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Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365429
09/04/17 09:10 PM
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I'm not sure if my digital caliper measuring from the side of the cup is 100% dead on accurate. But the numbers are closer with the right pushrod, then they were before.
I'll try that, but tomorrow. I've had the valve covers on and off enough for today.
I have another question for you, since your sig says you're an Indy dealer. I need to buy one more line for the spray bars. The one from the back of the block to the tee. I'm thinking it's a -3 AN line, but the inside diameter of the fittings is only 1/8" The lines at the valve covers also have 1/8" opennings in the fittings, and the head size of the nut is 1/2". Wouldn't a -3 be 3/16"? I've never heard of a -2 AN.


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365436
09/04/17 09:20 PM
09/04/17 09:20 PM
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My motor has paired T&D 1.7 rockers, Trend 7/16"x.165" pushrods. With zero lash on a .471" lobe it has .796" lift at 305/810lbs.
Doug

Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365439
09/04/17 09:21 PM
09/04/17 09:21 PM
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I'm not sure what size they are.......I just buy it and install it, but I believe they are 3AN.

STD wrench size for 3AN is 1/2".


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365446
09/04/17 09:34 PM
09/04/17 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted By sgcuda
Any Comp dealers on here I can help support?


The guy giving you all the great advice (fast68plymouth) is a comp dealer and great to deal with too.

Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365584
09/05/17 01:16 AM
09/05/17 01:16 AM
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#3 or #4 AN will both work well as long as you restrict the oil flow to the shafts between .030 to .080 up
Is this a roller cam motor or flat tappet?
The reason I'm asking is the roller cam springs like and need a lot more oil flow to keep them cool than the flat tappet springs need shruggy


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365644
09/05/17 08:35 AM
09/05/17 08:35 AM
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Cab, this is a roller motor with paired Jesels and spray bar oiling. Can I put a single restrictor in the block fitting or should I place a restrictor in each bulkhead fitting in the valve covers?


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Re: It gets worse [Re: sgcuda] #2365800
09/05/17 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted By sgcuda

Can I put a single restrictor in the block fitting or should I place a restrictor in each bulkhead fitting in the valve covers?

Your choice up I would go with two so you can control the oil flow based on your desires and results on those rockers and pushrod tips scope
I bought a set of valve covers with spray bar oiling for my motor with the Jesel set up, I haven't ran that motor yet or primed it yet and I don't know what size the restrictors are in those covers, yet work
I am using pushrod oiling also so maybe I will not have any issues with the top end luck
I saw your comment on using offset lifters so I knew then it had to have solid roller lifters in it blush
Good luck up let us know your results please.

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/05/17 02:31 PM.

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