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440 build #2359465
08/25/17 02:30 AM
08/25/17 02:30 AM
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gss Offline OP
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Hi Gang, my sons decided to get my '71 Charger running. It hasn't seen daylight in 25 years. They already got the engine out and the top end off. It looks pretty good inside but it always needed a lot of octane booster to run well so they are going to rebuild it to be a little more practical.

It is .030 with L2295 pistons, DC .509 cam, Stage IV heads, TM-7 intake, and headers. I ran an 800 Double Pumper but that is being used on another car so they may try a fresh Holley 950 3 bbl I have laying around.

Does anyone make a relatively light weight 440 piston?

The cam and lifters look great. Any reason not to reuse them? I would probably change the valve springs.

Does it make sense to recondition the rods with all the cheap aftermarket rods that are available today?

Thanks!

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2359469
08/25/17 02:46 AM
08/25/17 02:46 AM
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Between a rock & a hard place
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Between a rock & a hard place
There are PLENTY of lighter pistons on the market for 440s. Just google it or cruise any mail order website. There are good, honest vendors here on the sponsor page as well.

Same with rods. I'd stay away from super cheap eBay rods, but there are plenty of offerings in
the aftermarket that makes re-doing 40 year old rods a waste of money for the risk involved.

Enjoy the project with your sons. That in itself is awesome!!!

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2359485
08/25/17 05:25 AM
08/25/17 05:25 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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On your deal with you willing to replace the rods and pistons I would look at having the stock forged steel crankshaft offset ground down to 2.200 rod journal sizes and increase the stroke to 3.91 using a decent after market forged steel H beam BB Chevy type rod on both ends as long as possible(7.100 long up devil) and a set of pump gas friendly forged reversed dome pistons from either 440 Source or KB Icon pistons scope
That is a real good combination for your deal as long as you can get the crank offset ground reasonably work scope
The other alternative is to buy a complete 4.250 stroke balanced stroker pump gas kit to make the motor bigger work
Lots of choices out there now on that kit scope
Good luck, have fun thumbs devil


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2359570
08/25/17 11:58 AM
08/25/17 11:58 AM
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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I'd use what you have, new rings.... different cam thou. something a tad more modern. maybe a new timing chain and roll...


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: 440 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2359996
08/26/17 01:18 AM
08/26/17 01:18 AM
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gss Offline OP
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I will talk to my machine shop about the offset journals. I'm not too worried about making max horsepower. It is going to have way more power than a 16 year old should have. eek up

Re: 440 build [Re: Mr.Yuck] #2359999
08/26/17 01:34 AM
08/26/17 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted By Mr.Yuck
I'd use what you have, new rings.... different cam thou. something a tad more modern. maybe a new timing chain and roll...


If the compression ratio was a little lower, I would do just that. Also those old forged pistons seemed to have lot of piston slap. I'd like it to be a little quieter.

I am sure there are better cams but I loved this one. It was a torque monster right off idle and revved hard to well over 7000 RPM. It has an aluminum flywheel so it revved really fast.

Thanks!

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2360001
08/26/17 01:37 AM
08/26/17 01:37 AM
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You need to remember or know that all late model Mopars with throttle cables can have the throttle cable adjusted to limit the power by not opening the carb. all the way on the throttle cable holder on the engine work scope
If he is a hot rodder or likes speed do it now, limit the throttle opening, for a while so he doesn't get hurt or in more trouble than he can handle now so he won't know how much power can be had later work up
Good luck either way thumbs


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2360200
08/26/17 04:49 PM
08/26/17 04:49 PM
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He is a very cautious driver so I am not too worried about him. My 13 year old is another story eek panic drive

Thanks up up

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2360626
08/27/17 03:43 PM
08/27/17 03:43 PM
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The lifters appear to be in perfect condition. Any reason they shouldn't be reused after sitting 25 years? I haven't mic'd the cam yet but it looks great as well.

When I last drove it, I thought the valves were floating a bit earlier and sitting without the rockers loosened doesn't help. So I want to check out the valve springs. Does anyone know what spring pressures I need with the old 509 cam?

I noticed the inside of the engine - the lifter valley and under the valve covers is black. No sludge or anything, just black. The PCV valve looks fine. Is there anything else I should look for to explain this. This engine always ran really well, better than others with the 509 cam that I knew of. I changed the 20w50 VR1 every year with well under 1000 miles on it.
wrench

IMG_4234.JPGIMG_5982.JPG
Last edited by gss; 08/27/17 03:48 PM.
Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2360627
08/27/17 03:47 PM
08/27/17 03:47 PM
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Hot Rod Ridge
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440source pistons are pretty good.

Re: 440 build [Re: FastmOp] #2360660
08/27/17 04:42 PM
08/27/17 04:42 PM
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Mahle pistons and Molnar 7.1" rods.


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2360679
08/27/17 05:27 PM
08/27/17 05:27 PM
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Prospect, PA
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Originally Posted By gss
The lifters appear to be in perfect condition. Any reason they shouldn't be reused after sitting 25 years? I haven't mic'd the cam yet but it looks great as well.



Probably better than any lifters you could get today. twocents

Last edited by BSB67; 08/27/17 05:28 PM.
Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2360697
08/27/17 06:15 PM
08/27/17 06:15 PM
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aZLiViN
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Originally Posted By gss
It was a torque monster right off idle and revved hard to well over 7000 RPM.


torque monsters don't need 7K rpm to get it done.

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2360800
08/27/17 09:11 PM
08/27/17 09:11 PM
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On your deal reusing the old cam and lifters already broke in with new valve springs I would look for 140 to 170 lbs. on the seats and from 325 to 375 lbs. at max lift up scope
As far as the black coating did you use ARP assembly lube and black cam lube on the motor?
If so that may be where your black coating colors are coming from still shruggy
That stuff is a bear to get flushed out of the motor, especially if it is a street car that doesn't go on long trips over two hundred miles at a time work

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/27/17 09:13 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2360829
08/27/17 09:57 PM
08/27/17 09:57 PM
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It all depends on the budget of course but if the money is available I'd buy aluminum heads for that engine. The modern chamber design in the aluminum heads will allow you to run pump gas and you'll lose a bunch of weight off the nose of the car.

You should be able to sell those Stage IV heads for a decent amount which will offset some of the cost of the aluminum heads.

Re: 440 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2361529
08/29/17 02:11 AM
08/29/17 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
On your deal reusing the old cam and lifters already broke in with new valve springs I would look for 140 to 170 lbs. on the seats and from 325 to 375 lbs. at max lift up scope
As far as the black coating did you use ARP assembly lube and black cam lube on the motor?
If so that may be where your black coating colors are coming from still shruggy
That stuff is a bear to get flushed out of the motor, especially if it is a street car that doesn't go on long trips over two hundred miles at a time work


I didn't do the initial build so I am not sure what was used. Thank you for the spring info.

Re: 440 build [Re: AndyF] #2361536
08/29/17 02:27 AM
08/29/17 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted By AndyF
It all depends on the budget of course but if the money is available I'd buy aluminum heads for that engine. The modern chamber design in the aluminum heads will allow you to run pump gas and you'll lose a bunch of weight off the nose of the car.

You should be able to sell those Stage IV heads for a decent amount which will offset some of the cost of the aluminum heads.


Well the budget is that of a 16yo and 13yo whose income comes from mowing the lawn so different heads are probably not high on the list. This is primarily a learning experience for them.

That brings up another question though. The last pair of heads (906 heads)I sent to the machine shop came back with cracks in the valve guide towers. They claimed that was normal and not a problem. Another machine shop told me the same thing. I don't agree. I think this would cause oil to be sucked through into the valve guide. These are experienced shops that build a lot of engines. Is it unreasonable to expect my heads to come back with no cracks?

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2361551
08/29/17 04:23 AM
08/29/17 04:23 AM
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If the guide tops where cracked by the machine shops pressing in new guides or guide inserts then having them machined for press on, not push on, valve seals should seal the cracks off from oil work scope

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/29/17 04:24 AM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 440 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #2369980
09/13/17 12:33 PM
09/13/17 12:33 PM
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gss Offline OP
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Well the cam is perfect.... except one tiny scratch on a lobe. I think it was running this way. Its right on the closing flank so maybe it survived. Regardless, I think I need to replace it down

Any suggestions for a cam that performs as good or better than the old .509 Purple Shaft? Pump gas friendly.

Offset grind on the crank is $425. Looks like aftermarket rods are going to be $500 whether they are are stock stroke or 3.91. Pistons are going to be around $500 too. Are those typical figures?

Thanks up

Re: 440 build [Re: gss] #2369988
09/13/17 12:42 PM
09/13/17 12:42 PM
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NEW JERSEY
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With those figures I'd go for a stroker kit.. Complete with rods .crank and pistons for around the same numbers..you will never go back to stock stroke..!!!

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