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Flat tappet break in oil #2339679
07/19/17 01:07 PM
07/19/17 01:07 PM
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pullandrag Offline OP
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Fairly stock 375 hp 440 owner requsted high volume pump i said he didnt need it but whatever,he brings me val VR1 20w50 and its got a single bolt Comp Cam,i am about to start it and do the break in i want to drain that dowel pin buster and put in a 30w with zddp just want opinions i didng stand my ground on the oil pump or 20w50 but now i have ice cold feet and lighting it up it was a stiff prime on the drill im worried about the cam dowel any opinions are valued gi6ve it to me,thanks

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339683
07/19/17 01:15 PM
07/19/17 01:15 PM

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crabman173
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I would say fire it up --only busted one pin in 35 years and who knows why so that is a no worry deal--
I love the Lucas break in oil available in 30 wt or 20w50 it is cheap and it is over 3000 PPM of the good stuff I have had zero failures since using it OR use Lucas additive in non detergent 30 weight VR-1 is Ok but only around 1200PPM IIRC stuff changes all the time so
Light it up

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: ] #2339685
07/19/17 01:17 PM
07/19/17 01:17 PM
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Wichita
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Comp flat tappet?

Good luck with that...


'63 Dodge 330
11.19 @ 121 mph
Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs.
10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339696
07/19/17 01:41 PM
07/19/17 01:41 PM
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Locomotion Offline
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Oil with less viscosity circulates faster, which is what you want, whether it be for initial start-up or after sitting a while.

Amsoil has their own break-in oil - Amsoil 30w Break-In Oil

It's a pain, but you can always put weaker valve springs in for the break-in period.

Last edited by Locomotion; 07/19/17 01:42 PM.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339707
07/19/17 01:57 PM
07/19/17 01:57 PM
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CMcAllister Offline
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Drain the VR1 and use a good break in oil. Bill the customer for it. Will you be the dumb a$$ if the cam goes flat? Protect yourself. You just can't be a victim of guys trying to save $5.

Last edited by CMcAllister; 07/19/17 01:59 PM.

If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339728
07/19/17 02:26 PM
07/19/17 02:26 PM
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20w50 is very commonly used in the field, but if you aren't confident in it or it seems wrong, if you are calling the shots then definitely change to whatever you deem appropriate.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339739
07/19/17 02:52 PM
07/19/17 02:52 PM
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Joe Gibbs or Brad Penn is what you want to use and plenty of Joe Gibbs breakin grease on the cam and lifters

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339740
07/19/17 02:54 PM
07/19/17 02:54 PM
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CompWedgeEngines Offline
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For break in, go with a lighter break in oil, as Myron also mentions. I now use Schaeffers break in oil ( I buy it in 5 gallons buckets), along with Gibbs Driven, but used a lot of Brad Penn in the past.I know there will be 5,000 people on here touting "you dont need no stinkin break in oils and exotic this, and expensive that".Do yourself a favor. Use a break in oil, and remove the inner springs, or use light springs if that option exists.

Last edited by CompWedgeEngines; 07/19/17 02:55 PM.

RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339767
07/19/17 03:28 PM
07/19/17 03:28 PM
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Driven "BR" for me...... Which is 15-40.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339789
07/19/17 03:57 PM
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pullandrag Offline OP
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Thanks guys!Crabman,i respect your opinion and believe you but im going to drain and go for some Brad Penn some pulling friends use it and can get it for me thanks for all the opinions.I would just feel better about it,right or wrong or indifferent i have to sleep with the decision smile

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339794
07/19/17 04:03 PM
07/19/17 04:03 PM
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GY3 im prayin!....,thanks Zippy,McAllister exactly my thoughts

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2339805
07/19/17 04:18 PM
07/19/17 04:18 PM
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It's a bit off topic but that cam dowel isn't what transfers drive torque through the timing set -- it's only there for locating purposes. The friction between the cam face and timing gear, when the cam bolt is torqued correctly, is what prevents slip and subsequent shearing of that pin. A grade 8 7/16 UNC bolt (what the single bolt cam uses IIRC) can safely produce 9,568 pounds of clamping load.

Last edited by Criterion; 07/19/17 04:19 PM.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #2339867
07/19/17 05:47 PM
07/19/17 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted By CompWedgeEngines
For break in, go with a lighter break in oil, as Myron also mentions. I now use Schaeffers break in oil ( I buy it in 5 gallons buckets), along with Gibbs Driven, but used a lot of Brad Penn in the past.I know there will be 5,000 people on here touting "you dont need no stinkin break in oils and exotic this, and expensive that".Do yourself a favor. Use a break in oil, and remove the inner springs, or use light springs if that option exists.


I agree & do all of the same with my engines.


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
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Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340125
07/20/17 01:31 AM
07/20/17 01:31 AM
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I use the Valvoline VR1 20w-50 oil for break-in with a bottle od Comp zinc additive. Never had a problem but left the inner springs off on the last break-in. But I have never wiped a lobe. But you gotta go with what you feel good with. I break-in and run my eng on the VR1 20w-50 with good results. Ron

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340140
07/20/17 02:06 AM
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These are just single springs with damper,911 springs.Last engine before this one was 5 years ago my 451, I used John Deere break in 30w for diesels very high zinc and then dumped it and put in the VR1 I'm sure this is a well discussed subject on here, but flat tappet users are going the way of the DeSotos but I've never had a wiped lobe but bought a few that were,I just getting my ducks in a row.Thanks Criterion, I know it's the two faces and the clamping force but seen a horror story on YT and freaked me out the older I get the more I worry about fresh engines,thank you guys for revisiting this subject,hate to be wishy-washy but the VR1 and bottle of ZDDP is already in it think 383man I'll just go with it,thanks guys

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340142
07/20/17 02:09 AM
07/20/17 02:09 AM
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The owner lost the key that's all I'm really waiting for 😂Im afraid the turn switch with screwdriver end up burning up a Daytona not on my to do list

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340145
07/20/17 02:30 AM
07/20/17 02:30 AM
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The biggest thing is the bearing clearances..
so if they are on the tighter side then run
thinner oil... dont burn your brain out on this..
just use break in oil
wave

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340369
07/20/17 02:56 PM
07/20/17 02:56 PM
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CompWedgeEngines Offline
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Everyone can do whatever they wish, and breaking in 1 engine, versus hundreds of engines will give you a totally different perspective, and especially engines of every variety and usage. You want to see stuff break? Try some boat engines, some truck pullers, and especially high RPM dirt track engines. Your eyes will open.Anyhow, here is a quick simple video, which has some valuable information. Most people like to just throw the term " high zinc" , or XXX PPM of zinc around, because thats what the oil companies with marketing budgets do.There is SOOOO much more to oil than that. I am in no way an oil expert, but I do pay attention, have years of running all sorts of engines, and have the fortunate insight into some private testing, that beats up oils every which way from Sunday.Lake and Driven , do a LOT of testing, and they engineer their products for every type of scenario. Its way more about using the right product for the application, than just a " favorite" marketed brand.That doesnt mean some of the common brands are bad, I'm simply saying there may be better, more usage specific, and better blended products for every application. Lake is involved with one of our private engine builder forums, and he often shares much of the information there. Its always good stuff.I learn something new every day.I also have spoke at length with Schaeffers, and have learned a bunch from them as well as my own experience.I also have some private test data as mentioned from others, and its really something to see when you start breaking down the components of oil.Oils ARE different.There is a fairly common oil brand out there now, that targets vintage cars etc, that people love, because its ' cheaper". It really doesnt test well, but again, they market it well. Is it " bad", well...I guess not, but are there " better" oils, absolutely.

What always shocks me, is someone will pay $5,000-$25,000 on an engine, then have issue with the price of the oil. I dont get it.Its the lifeblood of the engine.Even if its a 10 qt pan, and you spend $3.00 more per quart, wow, $30.00 . We'll blow that on lunch in a few days....lol

My example: If you had to have a blood transfusion, would you prefer it be from a 30 year old, healthy individual, who eats right, exercises, and has a long family history of longevity and healthiness, or would you choose your blood be from a 30 year old 65# crack [censored], who looks like 90 years old, and is strung out and been on crack and heroin for the last 15 years of their life? I mean hey, they both are blood right?Blood is blood isnt it?If you were charged by the pint for the blood, and could save $2.00 a pint, why not right? Its the better deal isnt it? You get the idea.

My point isnt to " just spend more" to get the trick of the day " chic"oil. its spend more to get a good oil, or more importantly the RIGHT oil.The right oil is based on needs, clearances, temperatures and so forth.

Dwayne and I had a conversation a while back , and it was because of hydraulic cams and lifters. The hydraulic lifter stuff is getting more technical,as far as requirements and adjustments.I have changed my oil for those builds, based on manufacturer feedback and requirements. I had my choice of product, it worked, and I didnt have issue, BUT, I found there to be what I felt was a better choice. Its also easier to work with a manufacture, when you use their suggested oil, and can share better data that way.

OK, enough of my rambling, just my 2 cents. Watch the video if you will, there is always something to be gained.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/DrivenRacingOil/videos/?ref=page_internal


RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340426
07/20/17 04:21 PM
07/20/17 04:21 PM
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CMcAllister Offline
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Good information. I'm a "buy the best, American made you can afford" kind of guy. I know people have budgets and they don't always need a $3000 pair of shocks on their 10 second bracket car or titanium rods in a street motor.

But oil is kind of chump change in the grand scheme of things. For some, Mobil One from WalMart might be OK, for others, not so much. I know guys making tons of power with stuff they shouldn't be and it's living, and they're using oils I never heard of until I saw it in their shop. I'm always trying to keep an open mind, get past opinions and learn facts. Not always easy.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #2340444
07/20/17 04:56 PM
07/20/17 04:56 PM
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Great info thankxxx.......... beer


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: CMcAllister] #2340518
07/20/17 08:04 PM
07/20/17 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted By CMcAllister
I know people have budgets and they don't always need a $3000 pair of shocks on their 10 second bracket car or titanium rods in a street motor.


Best thing I've seen here all day.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340544
07/20/17 09:09 PM
07/20/17 09:09 PM

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crabman173
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I know oil is a tricky subject--I know way less about oil than I guess I should but----other than the rash of lobe failures experienced when the oils changed--now Years ago--now Fixed-- for the most part---I have never had an engine failure I could connect to the oil being used--I have always used thicker oils like 20w50 and gave up on any performance gain from oils ( though I know from the dyno it is true ) I almost always have loose built engines I know there is still to this day Snake oil being sold and peddled--I also know that the "Bobs the Oil guy" website has folks that spend days on end just talking oils--it seems to be one of the most informative sites out there but ...I also know that if the engine is in good shape and you have any kind of oil in it-that you are almost assured that the actual oil will not be the issue if you have a failure--That would be in 90% of the engines guys on this site build and use--now I understand that a twin turbo 3 sec car and others are different so I get Extreme applications but ..as far as the old cam lobe argument--it has been proven that there are MANY factors other than oil that have piled on to make that subject a never ending tale--lifter bores, lifter crown, spring pressures, imported junk parts, USA made junk parts, etc It is NOT just the oil though I think that is the biggest factor
I have had great luck with just about any of the high ZDDP stuff as far as break in and I have run almost everything made in drag and street engines and it all worked great! I tear down all kinds of race engines every week and some of them you can hardly hold on to the parts they are so slick --when I see that I always ask what oil you running--that and a good inspection of the parts gives me a good insight into the deal every single week-- Compwedge is right--real pros that see it every single day tend to gravitate toward the best info and products available and those are opinions based on real world--see it with your on eyes data--not the old my dad ran xxxx brand for 50 years kinda stuff
I have run some stupid high pressures on flat solids using EDM lifters and very careful break in--have seen perfect looking cam lobes and lifters with 5-6 brands of oil after being SURE all else was right with the entire engine
I have to say that Gibbs is amazing--the tech they offer is the best around--Lucas stuff works--Amalie also KNOWS what they are doing--I still run the now Conoco Phillips made GT-1 Kendall in my alky dragster even with small doses of nitro because after two years it has shown me it works--and is slick--and my tear downs have shown NO oil related issues-and because I have to change it a LOT with fuel and alky and..I buy in bulk at around $34 a case--I can't afford to toss several cases of Brad Penn down the drain every week though it does a killer job with alky
It is all about the whole picture and common sense--not the most expensive or best advertised or IMO the best test results no matter who did the testing
Whew! Big subject

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: ] #2340594
07/20/17 10:29 PM
07/20/17 10:29 PM
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CompWedgeEngines Offline
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Crabman, I'm all typed out, but I simply want to also add, the Brad Penn Nitro 70 has been EXCELLENT in alky motors.Cant argue at all on that. I do very few alky motors now, so its become less of an issue for me. Thi stopic will never stop being debated, and the challenges and opinions will never be in alignment, its just " one of those things".....lol


RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340651
07/20/17 11:15 PM
07/20/17 11:15 PM
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Mattax Offline
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High volume pump and 20W-50 - where's it going to go? Out the relief valve. Fresh engine, unless it was built loose and/or runs hot, those two choices don't seem to make sense. Together they're going to force that pressure relief wide open at relatively low rpm.

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340881
07/21/17 11:44 AM
07/21/17 11:44 AM
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Good video I'm not a scientist and every brand has someone pushing it,but it is fact it's the blood,I respect the info but let's just go back to 1990 when Castrol GTX was the chosen oil and light a Winston and comb our moustache just kidding but thanks for opening my eyes beyond ppm of zinc being the only factor I won't lie that's all I look for,use to run Kendall but lost local distributor thanks for all the info..

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340883
07/21/17 11:50 AM
07/21/17 11:50 AM
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Mattax great point I didn't choose this stuff at all,owner come bringing me stuff putting it in my face,but early post I agreed with a guy just to go for it,but not now going Penn break in then stick with 30w it is not a loose engine and will never be drove hard for the most part it's a show Queen Daytona

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340902
07/21/17 12:11 PM
07/21/17 12:11 PM
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I was a Brad Penn break-in oil user for years but recently switched to Lucas. I still use Brad Penn 10-30 after break-in but will probably switch my alcohol builds over to Schaeffers Oil as I hear it performs better with alcohol.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pittsburghracer] #2340905
07/21/17 12:17 PM
07/21/17 12:17 PM
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pittsburghracer Offline
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Off topic but there was a post on Yellowbullet that Lucas Oil pulled all sponsorship from the Lucas Oil Drag Boat Series. Pretty sure the series also dropped several races from their schedule this year. I love watching that on TV and hope all goes well in the future. If Lucas ever pulled out of NHRA, IHRA drag racing that would be a big hit.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340919
07/21/17 12:39 PM
07/21/17 12:39 PM
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Alot of known decent oils do test poorly in terms of additive content... this is true, many oils folks swear by appear to be very additive-depleted compared to others. If they work, it's hard to debate. Oil is like religion.

GT-1 from "back in the day" actually contained a small amount of copper as an additive, according to recent tests of NOS oil. I've got two cases of green gt-1 left... ..certain types of Pennzoil also had some copper deliberately in it as the test below shows. I don't think anyone does that anymore...but these tests of older oil show, most of them were not really all that.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/October-1-2012.php


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2340921
07/21/17 12:43 PM
07/21/17 12:43 PM
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Couldn't get the vidio to run, co'mon tell me what to use, all I know from this is its gotta be slick! ?? Used hyd cam, new lifters, race engine.

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2341008
07/21/17 03:59 PM
07/21/17 03:59 PM
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Mattax Offline
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Originally Posted By pullandrag
Mattax great point I didn't choose this stuff at all,owner come bringing me stuff putting it in my face,but early post I agreed with a guy just to go for it,but not now going Penn break in then stick with 30w it is not a loose engine and will never be drove hard for the most part it's a show Queen Daytona

I figured you were leaning that way but thought it was worth bringing up.

It's tough to change a customer's mind who has already bought into an idea, but I suspect the engine that is generally run cold would be happier after breakin with a 10w-30 multi-weight.

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2341328
07/22/17 02:20 AM
07/22/17 02:20 AM
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Totally agree Mattax thanks, Zippy I used the green GT-1 in the past,even years ago ran outside the box used Rotella 15-40 but the new stuff (T5) isn't as good as the CJ4 they had to change it for for the new tier of diesel engines with converters and exhaust fluid,best to stick with true performance oils nowadays appreciate all the comments

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2341472
07/22/17 02:15 PM
07/22/17 02:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,408
Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
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CMcAllister  Offline
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Anything suitable is likely labeled "Off Road Use Only"


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2342349
07/24/17 11:39 AM
07/24/17 11:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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ZIPPY  Offline
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S.E. Michigan
Originally Posted By pullandrag
....Zippy I used the green GT-1 in the past,even years ago ran outside the box used Rotella 15-40 but the new stuff (T5) isn't as good as the CJ4 they had to change it for for the new tier of diesel engines with converters and exhaust fluid....


Autozone recently blew out the last of the CJ4 Rotella T5 in 10w30, and put them on clearance, they were selling 2.5 gallon jugs for $15. Not sure if there is any left in their system as us clearance sale watchers gobbled up quite a bit of it.

I'm not going to admit how much I bought, but it was definitely enough to keep me going for awhile whistling

Nice thing about it is it is dual rated, so no remorse using it in late model gas engines or older flat tappet stuff. It seems the closest thing to "all purpose" out there.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2342366
07/24/17 12:17 PM
07/24/17 12:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 148
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pullandrag Offline OP
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How about Royal Purple break in oil i came up empty handed on other brands locally

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2342416
07/24/17 02:01 PM
07/24/17 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,155
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GTX MATT Offline
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GTX MATT  Offline
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Posts: 5,155
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I broke in my Comp solid flat tappet with the Comp break in stuff in 10W30, and then I ran a bottle of the break in additive for the first 2 or 3 oil changes with VR1 and BP oil. So far so good.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2342789
07/24/17 11:17 PM
07/24/17 11:17 PM
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Posts: 148
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pullandrag Offline OP
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Thanks for reply I'm going to fire it this weekend but only options are Lucas additive or Royal Purple

Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2342877
07/25/17 01:57 AM
07/25/17 01:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,155
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GTX MATT Offline
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GTX MATT  Offline
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If its for flat tappet cam engines it's probably a good choice, Lucas does make a break in oil as well. I'd use some additive.

Also, you can order any of this stuff from Summit Racing, I always have my orders from them in 2 days. You can find this stuff on Amazon Prime too, 2 days guaranteed and usually the best price. I buy my VR1 and my BP on there. The BP is a huge savings over buying local, but you have to buy a case of 12.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Flat tappet break in oil [Re: pullandrag] #2343448
07/26/17 01:08 AM
07/26/17 01:08 AM
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Posts: 148
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pullandrag Offline OP
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I just bought the Lucas break in additive and Valvoline 30w non detergent to mix together,but honestly don't know what the ppm zone/phos is with this Lucas, it was locally available and has good online reviews going to do a search now I guess

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