Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: goldmember]
#231864
02/21/09 10:55 PM
02/21/09 10:55 PM
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Quote:
So you don't have a gauge on it to know what the ACTUAL temp is?
No, interior is 100% stock/factory. Never got an actual temp gauge, I guess that is where I should start. I wanted to keep it as factory appearing as possible but I figure its time to get a new aftermarket gauge.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: RapidRobert]
#231865
02/21/09 10:56 PM
02/21/09 10:56 PM
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The difference from the freeway to sitting in traffic is air speed(fan) & water pump speed. Most likely to be air speed . What do you have for a shroud/fan. What water pump?
No shrould, just aftermarket puller fan 3000 CFM i believe.
Unsure about the water pump.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#231866
02/21/09 10:57 PM
02/21/09 10:57 PM
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Quote:
So I take it you are using an electric puller fan? Move the puller to the front and use it as a pusher and put it on a thermostatically controlled switch. Then add in a stock type fixed fan to your motor and your problems will go away. A fixed fan flows a decent amount of air at idle, and with the help of a pusher the two should not have any problem cooling that motor.
Well I cant do that b/c I have the AC condenser and the tranny cooler in the front of the radiator.
Let me go snap a few pics for you guys---
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231868
02/21/09 11:10 PM
02/21/09 11:10 PM
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: RapidRobert]
#231871
02/21/09 11:45 PM
02/21/09 11:45 PM
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edelbrock or milodon water pump. I think that elec fan is not moving enough air especially with all the hardware in front of the radiator.
with how it sits now-- what would you do? get a better fan setup? dual fans? move the condensor and tranny cooler?
Right now im looking at replacing the water pump and thermostat to a 160. Im also going to get the correct radiator cap Monday.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231874
02/21/09 11:55 PM
02/21/09 11:55 PM
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Anonymous
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All this nonsense about "puller and pusher." There is ONLY ONE WAY that air should ever go through a CAR radiator, and that is from front (of the radiator) to back.
MAKE SURE the fan is the correct type and is turning the correct direction. You should be able to see this by looking at the fan blades. The will be "cupped" on one side, and this is the side that they should "pull" to (Blades are like wings--they are more efficient in one direction than the other) Some fans will change direction just by changing the wiring polarity, and they will NOT WORK WELL when reversed!!!!
I know nothing of the track record of the specific fan you have, it simply may not be enough
Last edited by 440sixpack; 02/21/09 11:58 PM.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231875
02/22/09 12:00 AM
02/22/09 12:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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You know it'd sure be easier if a good aftermarket W/P took care of this as the W/P would be a much easier install. Also I'd get a high flow 180 stat( drill a 1/16" hole in it for easy fillup). 160 is way too cool ex for a drag racer(& you are way above 160 degrees). The A/C condenser & trans cooler have to stay. I do not have the last word on fan advice but the old standby of a properly spaced(into the shroud) thermal clutch fan would be what I would do. there's just not enough air going thru the rad fins. EDIT yes that is the correct pump though I would check milodon & see if their pump is cheaper.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 02/22/09 12:25 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
#231877
02/22/09 12:38 AM
02/22/09 12:38 AM
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Posts: 885 alberta
Publicbottle
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Quote:
All this nonsense about "puller and pusher." There is ONLY ONE WAY that air should ever go through a CAR radiator, and that is from front (of the radiator) to back.
MAKE SURE the fan is the correct type and is turning the correct direction. You should be able to see this by looking at the fan blades. The will be "cupped" on one side, and this is the side that they should "pull" to (Blades are like wings--they are more efficient in one direction than the other) Some fans will change direction just by changing the wiring polarity, and they will NOT WORK WELL when reversed!!!!
I know nothing of the track record of the specific fan you have, it simply may not be enough
Or a simple test would be have the car running at idle and take a piece of paper and put it on the front of the rad and the fan drawing air in through the rad should make the paper stick.
I have the exact same AFCO set up as you for my 340 challenger, i dont have the car running yet but i am following this thread closely and i am waiting to hear what the fix is........
TK
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: gch]
#231879
02/22/09 12:40 AM
02/22/09 12:40 AM
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69L78Nova
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Put a thermal clutch fan on it with a shroud. Half the time, electric fans are garbage on the street. The extremely minimal power loss required to run a clutch fan is far easier to live with than overheating the engine. Run a viscous fan with a shroud.
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231883
02/22/09 04:26 AM
02/22/09 04:26 AM
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jbc426
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Did it run hot like this in traffic before you swapped the radiator? Did you ever put the correct radiator cap on it? Verify that the electric fan you have is spinning the correct way when on.
A lot of cheap fans spin well when there is no "load" on them, but fail misirably when they have to pull air through any type of restictive set-up. You do have what looks like a well-made, tightly sealed shroud. Either switch to a good factory type electric fan (there's a guy on this site that sells a nice big GM fan with shroud), or get yourself a high flow 16" Spahl fan or the dual 12 inch Spahl fan/shroud set-up with the good Spahl controller. (It will suck the chrome of a trailer hitch.); OR fit the factory stock/style thermal fan and shroud back on it. They move massive amounts of air too.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231884
02/22/09 07:47 AM
02/22/09 07:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575 The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
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Quote:
Quote:
So you don't have a gauge on it to know what the ACTUAL temp is?
No, interior is 100% stock/factory. Never got an actual temp gauge, I guess that is where I should start. I wanted to keep it as factory appearing as possible but I figure its time to get a new aftermarket gauge.
Since you don't care for originality under the hood why not just mount a watertemp guage there, which you can check once in a while when your dashgauge shows Hot again?
Or, just keep pouring money into fixing a possible cooling-problem which might not even exist perhaps.
Where's your ignition timing set at idle?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231886
02/22/09 08:55 AM
02/22/09 08:55 AM
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Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
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Quote:
You need at least a 180* stat. The stat doesn't do anything but bring the engine up to it's rated temp. Once it's open it doesn't effect the temp. I would go back to a factory fan, shroud and stock water pump set up that has worked for a lot of 440 set ups for a long time.
This makes more sense than anything,they worked when new.Nothing had more coolers and accessories than police packages and half of those idled more than they ran on the highway.We seem to have a passion in this country to keep trying to fix things that work.It's everywhere,just look around.Also,find a 6 blade a/c factory pump,you don't need an aftermarket.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: RapidRobert]
#231889
02/22/09 10:23 AM
02/22/09 10:23 AM
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Quote:
You know it'd sure be easier if a good aftermarket W/P took care of this as the W/P would be a much easier install. Also I'd get a high flow 180 stat( drill a 1/16" hole in it for easy fillup). 160 is way too cool ex for a drag racer(& you are way above 160 degrees). The A/C condenser & trans cooler have to stay. I do not have the last word on fan advice but the old standby of a properly spaced(into the shroud) thermal clutch fan would be what I would do. there's just not enough air going thru the rad fins. EDIT yes that is the correct pump though I would check milodon & see if their pump is cheaper.
What is W/P?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#231890
02/22/09 10:25 AM
02/22/09 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Put a thermal clutch fan on it with a shroud. Half the time, electric fans are garbage on the street. The extremely minimal power loss required to run a clutch fan is far easier to live with than overheating the engine. Run a viscous fan with a shroud.
What is a thermal clutch fan?
What is the best # of blades to run for a setup like this?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: jbc426]
#231891
02/22/09 10:29 AM
02/22/09 10:29 AM
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Did it run hot like this in traffic before you swapped the radiator? Did you ever put the correct radiator cap on it? Verify that the electric fan you have is spinning the correct way when on.
A lot of cheap fans spin well when there is no "load" on them, but fail misirably when they have to pull air through any type of restictive set-up. You do have what looks like a well-made, tightly sealed shroud. Either switch to a good factory type electric fan (there's a guy on this site that sells a nice big GM fan with shroud), or get yourself a high flow 16" Spahl fan or the dual 12 inch Spahl fan/shroud set-up with the good Spahl controller. (It will suck the chrome of a trailer hitch.); OR fit the factory stock/style thermal fan and shroud back on it. They move massive amounts of air too.
Car did what it's doing now, ran fine driving, if i stop in traffic, creeped up.
I havent gotten the correct radiator cap yet as AFCO is closed this weekend.
Im wondering if there is some way I can put a PUSHER fan on the front and put the stock setup on the backside like it was.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: cogen80]
#231893
02/22/09 10:34 AM
02/22/09 10:34 AM
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you need a real temp gauge in that car somewhere. that way you know exactly what is going on. even if you install one temporarily.
Im going to buy one and install one today.
Question-- do I need a 160 or 180 thermostat?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: ToddP]
#231894
02/22/09 10:36 AM
02/22/09 10:36 AM
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Quote:
What is the ignition timing set at idle?
I dont know. How can I find that out?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: ahy]
#231896
02/22/09 10:37 AM
02/22/09 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Radiator: High capacity aluminum Fan: MP 5 blade thermal clutch fan Shroud Water Pump: MP high volume, slightly overdriven (6.25" drive pulley, about 5" fan puley) Thermostat: 180 high flow Mr Gasket
I think that is what im going to try and do. Go back as much to factory setup as possible.
With a fan like that one- can a puller be reversed somehow and installed on the front as a pusher?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Mopar73340]
#231900
02/22/09 10:54 AM
02/22/09 10:54 AM
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When you go back to the stock setup, make sure the clutch is GOOD. You said it was doing the heating up at idle before you switched to the electric setup which indicates lack of air movemant at idle which almost always means the clutch was bad.
it didnt have a clutch previously.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: ahy]
#231905
02/22/09 11:47 AM
02/22/09 11:47 AM
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A thermal clutch fan is a belt driven fan mounted on the water pump. It has a thermal clutch that engages the fan when hot and disengages when cool. Mancini sells them. Pic attached.
so this is the one id need?
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/vifanpa.html
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231906
02/22/09 11:47 AM
02/22/09 11:47 AM
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Where are you in Texas? You check timing with a timing light with the distributor vacuum line disconnected and plugged.
Im in Flower Mound-5 mins north of DFW Airport.
No, I havent check timing or vacuum, im a newb still learning.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231908
02/22/09 11:51 AM
02/22/09 11:51 AM
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Please read my reply to your other post before you go running off to spend money needlessly or for the wrong things.
I did and replied your post.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231909
02/22/09 11:58 AM
02/22/09 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,884 Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy
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I live in Grand Prairie about 5 minutes south of the airport and would be glad to help you with and teach you the hands on stuff. I'm retired so I am available most days. I've been a mechanic for over 40 years so I believe I can get you straightened out. There is a large Mopar club that would be glad to have you join us. CowtownMopars. Here's a link to our site. http://www.cowtownmopars.com/. We average 150 members. We have a race team and a show team. We do cruises and picnics, hold a yearly toy run and generally do a lot of Mopar realated stuff. Our meetings are once a month at Billy Bob's in the stockyards. My email is, stumpy383@hotmail.com
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231910
02/22/09 12:14 PM
02/22/09 12:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 522 Lenox Iowa
MMiller
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Get an infared thermometer. You can buy them for not much at any auto parts store. You can just point and get the temp of anything with this tool. It is money well spent, as you will use it more then you will ever believe. Start the car up in your driveway, let it idle. Check the upper radiator hose temp and the lower radiator hose temp. Let it warm up and keep checking the temp. The upper radiator hose should be warmer then the lower radiator hose. When the gauge in the dash shows "H" find the upper radiator hose temp and then report back to us. Hot water goes in the top of the rad and cooler water comes out the bottom.
This needs to be the first step, before any more money is spent.
FWIW, I run a warmed over 440 in a 4X4 truck with junkyard electric fan. Idling around the timber in the hot, humid midwest, and it does not over heat(90-100* days with 90-100% humidity). Pound it through the mud, idle down the trail, bounce it off 6000 rpms pulling on stuck trucks, and the electric fan cool it fine. I don't have a rad as nice as yours or shrouded like your fan is. You should be in good shape radiator wise, unless the t-stat is sticking, or the gauge is off. I strongly persuade you to troubleshoot before dumping more money.
Michael
93 W250 CTD getrag, Bosch 185 injectors, AFE air filter. Trailer puller, daily driver, 90 W250 CTD 727 with smokin 5" stacks. Off road truck
75 Dodge W200 440 4spd 4x4 locked front and rear, twin disc clutch, E85. Pulling truck
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: MMiller]
#231911
02/22/09 12:57 PM
02/22/09 12:57 PM
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Anonymous
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A lot of this has already been covered, but here goes.
Electric fan companies severely overate their products cooling abilities. Once they have run for a while they can severely reduce your voltage by draining the battery, making them run even slower. To keep up, you need an alternater that will do at least 85 amps AT IDLE. If your voltage is getting down to the 12 volt range, the fan capacity tanks huge, at you heat up very quickly.
The best setup I have found is the MP clutch fan with shroud, run at at AC waterpump speed (1.3 times engine speed) and I have a very hard time keeping the TT340 cool at low speeds. This setup works all the time without issue.
I have found that aluminum radiators tend to have much higher cooling capacity, but they require significantly more airflow to work. At idle, I found my old 4 core cooled better than the Griffin, until I greatly increased airflow. I also noticed that the Griffin would drop the temp back to thermostat much quicker than the 4 core once the car was moving.
I think you would be best with the original radiator, clutch fan, shroud, AC pulleys and pump speed, and the CORRECT waterpump for AC.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#231913
02/22/09 01:44 PM
02/22/09 01:44 PM
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Quote:
how far away is the fan? are you running a shroud?
I am going to Oreillys today to get that temp gun to start trouble shooting these issues. First things first- should I run a 160 or 180 thermostat? Fyi the fan and shroud are mounted right on the backside of the radiator.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231916
02/22/09 03:35 PM
02/22/09 03:35 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
Radiator: High capacity aluminum Fan: MP 5 blade thermal clutch fan Shroud Water Pump: MP high volume, slightly overdriven (6.25" drive pulley, about 5" fan puley) Thermostat: 180 high flow Mr Gasket
I think that is what im going to try and do. Go back as much to factory setup as possible.
With a fan like that one- can a puller be reversed somehow and installed on the front as a pusher?
You need to re-read my post. Any fan blade is curved to be efficienct in one direction. If you turn it around and reverse the motor, the blades are not working against the efficienct part of their curve. The concave ("cupped") curve pulls air toward you as you look at the cup side of the blades The only way you could reversed the same fan assembly from pusher to pull is IF you could physically reverse the blade on the motor as well as turn the motor around and reverse it.
I would agree that it sounds "probably" like too little air. I don't know why you can't check the timing--all you need is a timing light
Putting in much of a colder stat won't help. I would not go below 180, and all of these cars were designed to run from the factory with 190 stats.
I'd say if you can go to a stock fan and shroud
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231917
02/22/09 04:26 PM
02/22/09 04:26 PM
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ahy
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Quote:
Quote:
A thermal clutch fan is a belt driven fan mounted on the water pump. It has a thermal clutch that engages the fan when hot and disengages when cool. Mancini sells them. Pic attached.
so this is the one id need?
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/vifanpa.html
That's the one. Works great for me. It will need a shroud - it may be possible to adapt the shroud from the original radiator or you'll have to get one made.
I do agree with previous posts on checking timing and idle mixture first. Too little advance or a lean idle can make it run hotter.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231918
02/22/09 04:51 PM
02/22/09 04:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,886 Lost and Spaced
bboogieart
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I live in Grand Prairie about 5 minutes south of the airport and would be glad to help you with and teach you the hands on stuff. I'm retired so I am available most days. I've been a mechanic for over 40 years so I believe I can get you straightened out.
Now that is right fine offer. Here you go buddy problem solved. Hold on to your money till you get the right info. Again nice car and good luck.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: gtx69]
#231920
02/22/09 05:08 PM
02/22/09 05:08 PM
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How was the electric fan set up to come on at what temp?
got it wired to run anytime the car is on.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: gtx69]
#231922
02/22/09 07:42 PM
02/22/09 07:42 PM
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Ok, I just got back from 2 hours of working on the car. Oreillys didnt have a timing gun or vacuum gauge (go figure) so I got the 3 gauge pod. I hooked up the voltage meter and man my alternator is kicking some amperage out. (14) I started the car, took a piece of paper and put it down in front of the radiator behind the a/c condensor and boy did it suck it right to the radiator. I then put my hand behind the radiator and that fan is sucking HARD! ALOT of air is being pulled out of the radiator-that is for sure. I did put a 180 degree thermostat in there today as well. I fired it up after idling there for about 5 minutes and left the neighborhood and got out on the highway. I drove about 6 miles before turning around. I knew immediately when the thermostat opened because it gradually climbed, then all of the sudden jumped a bit- then came back over. Good news was it just sat there the whole time. I exited and came back thru a neighborhood about 6.5 miles, doing 30 mph and coming to alot of stop signs and no issues whatsoever. Now granted it's 69 degrees outside, that could be playing a huge part but as of that 15-20 min trip no issues whatsoever.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: MMiller]
#231923
02/22/09 07:54 PM
02/22/09 07:54 PM
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Another question if you guys dont mind me asking-- 1) Where do I install the oil line for the new autometer oil gauge I just purchased? 2) Where do I install the long probe at the end of the line on the new temperature gauge? Ive looked all over the engine block and a bit perplexed. (please have mercy on me, im learning here guys--but do appreciate all the help ) EDIT- Instructions said install both into the engine block. Also, how do i get this nut thru the firewall?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231924
02/22/09 08:28 PM
02/22/09 08:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,361 swamps of florida
beepsalot
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to get the lines thru the firewall, use the oval plug just below and left of the steering column, it is the hole that the clutch pushrod would go thru if it was a four gear. you can use any of the bigger holes on the water pump housing,. you will have to use the adapters in the kit. the iol line will hook up to the back of the block. look back there and you will see the electric sending unit, the is another plug on the back, at opposite angle from the sending unit. again, use the adapters. you can pm me with anyquestions. beeps
Just Follow Me Down the Street, You'll Know i'm Up to No Good...
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: beepsalot]
#231925
02/22/09 08:39 PM
02/22/09 08:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
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Quote:
to get the lines thru the firewall, use the oval plug just below and left of the steering column, it is the hole that the clutch pushrod would go thru if it was a four gear. you can use any of the bigger holes on the water pump housing,. you will have to use the adapters in the kit. the iol line will hook up to the back of the block. look back there and you will see the electric sending unit, the is another plug on the back, at opposite angle from the sending unit. again, use the adapters. you can pm me with anyquestions. beeps
wow, thanks for the info. Here are some pics I snapped of the area---
Is that where I would input the oil unit?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: beepsalot]
#231926
02/22/09 09:46 PM
02/22/09 09:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,476
gtx69
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
to get the lines thru the firewall, use the oval plug just below and left of the steering column, it is the hole that the clutch pushrod would go thru if it was a four gear. you can use any of the bigger holes on the water pump housing,. you will have to use the adapters in the kit. the iol line will hook up to the back of the block. look back there and you will see the electric sending unit, the is another plug on the back, at opposite angle from the sending unit. again, use the adapters. you can pm me with anyquestions. beeps
plug opposite from sending until remove use that hole
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: RapidRobert]
#231928
02/23/09 04:23 AM
02/23/09 04:23 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
OP
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Quote:
other than the external gauge addition the only thing that you have changed so far is the stat from a 160 to a 180, correct?. & your temp is OK so far
Yes, did ok for that 20 min stint. Only thing is, temp was around 65-70 today, no where near the 100 degrees of true test.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: AHall]
#231931
02/23/09 01:44 PM
02/23/09 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
I did put a 180 degree thermostat in there today as well.
What was in it before ??
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: AHall]
#231932
02/23/09 01:47 PM
02/23/09 01:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Quote:
to get the lines thru the firewall, use the oval plug just below and left of the steering column, it is the hole that the clutch pushrod would go thru if it was a four gear. you can use any of the bigger holes on the water pump housing,. you will have to use the adapters in the kit. the iol line will hook up to the back of the block. look back there and you will see the electric sending unit, the is another plug on the back, at opposite angle from the sending unit. again, use the adapters. you can pm me with anyquestions. beeps
wow, thanks for the info. Here are some pics I snapped of the area---
Is that where I would input the oil unit?
There is another plugged hole back there , you could put the gauge in that hole .
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: RapidRobert]
#231937
02/24/09 07:46 PM
02/24/09 07:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
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OP
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Quote:
Ahall: holler when the temp hits 100. inquiring minds want to know
will do man.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Curt]
#231938
02/24/09 07:47 PM
02/24/09 07:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
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Quote:
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I live in Grand Prairie about 5 minutes south of the airport and would be glad to help you with and teach you the hands on stuff. I'm retired so I am available most days. I've been a mechanic for over 40 years so I believe I can get you straightened out. There is a large Mopar club that would be glad to have you join us. CowtownMopars. Here's a link to our site. http://www.cowtownmopars.com/. We average 150 members. We have a race team and a show team. We do cruises and picnics, hold a yearly toy run and generally do a lot of Mopar realated stuff. Our meetings are once a month at Billy Bob's in the stockyards.
My email is, stumpy383@hotmail.com
I don't have a dog in the ring but stop and think....A man that has been doing this FOR A LIVING for over 40 years is offering his help for free (I am sure he was making over $30+ per hour full time) and he is...sounds like... 20 minutes away SHOULD be hard to pass up. He is retired which means it is now car playtime. I bet in an hours time he can have your car running, starting, driving better than it ever has since you have owned it. And in that same hours time you could have at least 30 questions answered and be well on your way to a set of proud greasy, busted up hands. There is nothing like the sensation of the light bulb being switched on... Curt
AMEN to what you said. Already arranged and cant wait for Stumpy to come over Saturday morning.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Curt]
#231941
02/25/09 04:41 PM
02/25/09 04:41 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 44 Dallas, TX
Dbowperson
member
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member
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Posts: 44
Dallas, TX
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Hi matt. I hadn't seen your car around for a while. It's looking good. Hope you get the heat problem squared away.
1973 Dodge Challenger 440-6 Pack
1966 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Super Bee 440-6 Pack
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Dbowperson]
#231942
02/25/09 08:47 PM
02/25/09 08:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
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Quote:
Hi matt. I hadn't seen your car around for a while. It's looking good. Hope you get the heat problem squared away.
Hey fellow Dallas-ite? Do I know you? Do you know my car? Where have you seen it?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231943
02/25/09 09:10 PM
02/25/09 09:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 44 Dallas, TX
Dbowperson
member
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member
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Dallas, TX
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We crossed paths towards the end of last year some time out in Grand Prairie I think. Unfortunately my memory is shot and I can't remember where. Sorry.
1973 Dodge Challenger 440-6 Pack
1966 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Super Bee 440-6 Pack
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Dbowperson]
#231944
02/25/09 09:17 PM
02/25/09 09:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
OP
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Quote:
We crossed paths towards the end of last year some time out in Grand Prairie I think. Unfortunately my memory is shot and I can't remember where. Sorry.
yep thats me brother! Nice to see you on here. Once I get my car up and running again and the weather gets warmer you will see alot more of it- come say hi if i dont do the same first.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: JohnRR]
#231945
02/27/09 09:48 AM
02/27/09 09:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
I did put a 180 degree thermostat in there today as well.
What was in it before ??
Buelleur ??? Hello , is this thing on ???
sorry for interrupting your BS session ....
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: JohnRR]
#231946
02/27/09 10:02 PM
02/27/09 10:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
OP
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OP
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I did put a 180 degree thermostat in there today as well.
What was in it before ??
Buelleur ??? Hello , is this thing on ???
sorry for interrupting your BS session ....
sorry man, a 160.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: fox]
#231948
02/28/09 05:11 PM
02/28/09 05:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
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Quote:
With it idleing in neutral, air breather off, does it rev up when you introduce propane in to the carb throat.???? Just give it a little bit at a time. If it revs up, your idle circuit is too lean. This make it run hot at idle.
thanks, ill try that once the carb gets here.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: AHall]
#231950
03/07/09 09:04 PM
03/07/09 09:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
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On the way over there it was running kinda hot, on the way home, it ran hot. Now it didnt get higher than the H, but still was hot. Talking to Stumpy I may just need to go back to the factory shroud and fan with a clutch. Here are two screen shots of my temp gauge. (Im installing an aftermarket one tonight) (As a point of reference, with the stock radiator and stock fan and stock shroud, it always ran just to the right of the second white bar over by the C.) On the way over there here is what the temp gauge showed-- Here is how hot it got on the way home, running 50 mph on the freeway (getting run over too) Now im running 3.55's in the back (just verfied in but jacking up the Dana 60 and turning the tire an counting the driveshaft rev's) with a 25" tire. Im going to a 26.6" tire tomorrow. But damn if this heat issue isnt bugging the hell out of me. Im taching 3000 RPM at 50 mph. When I got home I popped the hood and grabbed the upper radiator hose going from the thermostat to the top of the radiator and it was hard as a rock. I let it cool, just went out there and it was squishy-- what does that indicate? Is my thermostat stuck?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231952
03/07/09 10:00 PM
03/07/09 10:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,887 USA
CrAlt
master
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master
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Posts: 9,887
USA
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Im watching this thread..keep us updated. I have to upgrade my cooling system now that the motor is a little more "hot". When it was stock the cooling system was just OK.. How big is the opening in your car? How does the bigger 26" rad fit? Did you have to move the battery? My opening is only 22.5" on my '69.
I was asked to contribute money to help solve the civil unrest in Egypt, but I suspect it's some sort of pyramid scheme.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: MMiller]
#231955
03/08/09 12:22 AM
03/08/09 12:22 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
OP
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alright just got back, still hacked off. I replaced the thermostat, thinking that could have been it. Took off down the highway, temp needle is sitting straight up at 12 o clock high. I drive 9 miles down the road at 50-60, sucker doesnt move. Im thinking I figured it out. I go to exit and do a u-turn, get caught a light, it starts to creep up. I turn around, get going and there goes the needle, right to the H. No matter what i did it stayed at the H all the way home and died on me twice coming back down my street. So it's not the thermostat. The radiator was hotter than a firecracker, so it's going thru the radiator, just not cooling. My auxilary puller fan is pulling 2200 CFM. Does anyone know what the factory fan with a clutch pulled CFM? I can do 3 things now: 1)Yank the 2200 CFM puller fan and get the SPAHL 6,000 CFM puller fans. 2)Fabricate the stock shroud to fit the aluminum radiator, put the stock fan back on, and try that. 3)Put the 26" radiator that was on there back on, and put the stock shroud and fan with clutch back on. At this point im stumped.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231956
03/08/09 12:31 AM
03/08/09 12:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,887 USA
CrAlt
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,887
USA
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Quote:
alright just got back, still hacked off.
I replaced the thermostat, thinking that could have been it. Took off down the highway, temp needle is sitting straight up at 12 o clock high. I drive 9 miles down the road at 50-60, sucker doesnt move. Im thinking I figured it out. I go to exit and do a u-turn, get caught a light, it starts to creep up. I turn around, get going and there goes the needle, right to the H. No matter what i did it stayed at the H all the way home and died on me twice coming back down my street.
So it's not the thermostat. The radiator was hotter than a firecracker, so it's going thru the radiator, just not cooling.
My auxilary puller fan is pulling 2200 CFM. Does anyone know what the factory fan with a clutch pulled CFM?
I can do 3 things now:
1)Yank the 2200 CFM puller fan and get the SPAHL 6,000 CFM puller fans.
2)Fabricate the stock shroud to fit the aluminum radiator, put the stock fan back on, and try that.
3)Put the 26" radiator that was on there back on, and put the stock shroud and fan with clutch back on.
At this point im stumped.
Everything ive read so far has said the stock clutch fan+shroud is the way to go. I think those electric fans end up blocking wind at highway speeds.
I'ed try the clutch fan/shroud with the alum rad.
I was asked to contribute money to help solve the civil unrest in Egypt, but I suspect it's some sort of pyramid scheme.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: CrAlt]
#231957
03/08/09 12:32 AM
03/08/09 12:32 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
OP
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Quote:
Quote:
alright just got back, still hacked off.
I replaced the thermostat, thinking that could have been it. Took off down the highway, temp needle is sitting straight up at 12 o clock high. I drive 9 miles down the road at 50-60, sucker doesnt move. Im thinking I figured it out. I go to exit and do a u-turn, get caught a light, it starts to creep up. I turn around, get going and there goes the needle, right to the H. No matter what i did it stayed at the H all the way home and died on me twice coming back down my street.
So it's not the thermostat. The radiator was hotter than a firecracker, so it's going thru the radiator, just not cooling.
My auxilary puller fan is pulling 2200 CFM. Does anyone know what the factory fan with a clutch pulled CFM?
I can do 3 things now:
1)Yank the 2200 CFM puller fan and get the SPAHL 6,000 CFM puller fans.
2)Fabricate the stock shroud to fit the aluminum radiator, put the stock fan back on, and try that.
3)Put the 26" radiator that was on there back on, and put the stock shroud and fan with clutch back on.
At this point im stumped.
Everything ive read so far has said the stock clutch fan+shroud is the way to go. I think those electric fans end up blocking wind at highway speeds.
even if it's a puller not a pusher? Im thinking it just doesnt PULL enough air.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231958
03/08/09 12:38 AM
03/08/09 12:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,887 USA
CrAlt
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,887
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
alright just got back, still hacked off.
I replaced the thermostat, thinking that could have been it. Took off down the highway, temp needle is sitting straight up at 12 o clock high. I drive 9 miles down the road at 50-60, sucker doesnt move. Im thinking I figured it out. I go to exit and do a u-turn, get caught a light, it starts to creep up. I turn around, get going and there goes the needle, right to the H. No matter what i did it stayed at the H all the way home and died on me twice coming back down my street.
So it's not the thermostat. The radiator was hotter than a firecracker, so it's going thru the radiator, just not cooling.
My auxilary puller fan is pulling 2200 CFM. Does anyone know what the factory fan with a clutch pulled CFM?
I can do 3 things now:
1)Yank the 2200 CFM puller fan and get the SPAHL 6,000 CFM puller fans.
2)Fabricate the stock shroud to fit the aluminum radiator, put the stock fan back on, and try that.
3)Put the 26" radiator that was on there back on, and put the stock shroud and fan with clutch back on.
At this point im stumped.
Everything ive read so far has said the stock clutch fan+shroud is the way to go. I think those electric fans end up blocking wind at highway speeds.
even if it's a puller not a pusher? Im thinking it just doesnt PULL enough air.
When your moving at speed you dont really need a fan. Wind is blowing through the rad at 50mpg or what ever your driving at.
Thats way more air then what can fit through your electric fan. It maybe acting as a air dam at speed.
EDIT: Also, take a look at the A/C condenser. Is it really as messed up as it looks in this pic? How many of the fins are bent over??
They make a tool to straiten them out. Maybe its blocking to much air.
I was asked to contribute money to help solve the civil unrest in Egypt, but I suspect it's some sort of pyramid scheme.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: CrAlt]
#231962
03/08/09 10:27 AM
03/08/09 10:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001 Coram, NY
Pool Fixer
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Coram, NY
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2200 cfm is not going to cut it on a big block. I had a similar problem with my 440 and went down the same road as you, new aluminum rad, new stat, water wetter, new clutch fan, none of it worked. my problem was at idle. even moving at 10-20 mph it would cool right down. I ended up installing a flex fan. I know everyone is down on them, but they cool very well. I used my old electric as an aux "pusher' on the front of the rad.
I'd say your idea about spal fans is a good one. when it comes to fans, either OEM or Spal. If you run a clutch setup, the MP one is way too "long" at least it was on my charger. I bought a short one from bob mazzoliniracing.com. it was expensive, @80 bucks, but I didn't know any better. members here found a parts store one that's way less money. I never got around to installing mine, so I don't know how it worked.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Pool Fixer]
#231963
03/08/09 10:49 AM
03/08/09 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,884 Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy
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Grand Prairie,Texas
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What he negelected to mention is the fact thet he is running a 3000 stall converter and the trans may be slippimg. This is with a 25" tall tire and 3.55 gears. He is running 3000rpm at 50 mph. He's turning some high RPMs at 65-70. I checked his airflow and there is plenty of air getting to the radiator but the fan he's using has a lot of blockage coming out. the fan housing has a bunch of close set ribs, about a 1/4" apart, that seem to keep air from coming out of the fan as well as it should. Timing and carb are good. It will sit forever at an idle or run around at city strret speeds without and heating trouble. I recommended that he cut every other rib off the fan housing and see what difference letting the air out did. I also suggested he swap to a more street friendly converter.
Last edited by stumpy; 03/08/09 11:03 AM.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: btomasko]
#231964
03/08/09 10:54 AM
03/08/09 10:54 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
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Quote:
Did you check the timing on the engine, might be probable cause.
yes, Stumpy help me set it yesterday.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231977
03/08/09 05:41 PM
03/08/09 05:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,886 Lost and Spaced
bboogieart
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Quote:
Hey boogieart, tell me then how going to a taller tire isn't going to reduce rpm's on the highway? I will await your reply as I await for my 2" taller tires to finish up being installed.
It will but not by very much. you'll see on your way home from the tire shop.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: AHall]
#231983
03/08/09 06:04 PM
03/08/09 06:04 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Going back to the original stuff probably will help him somewhat.
It runs OK at idle when the air is being pulled through from the backside of the radiator, not being pushed through the condenser.
It heats up at speed.
Aluminum radiators like more airflow than copper/brass.
He has a very restrictive condenser and cooler in front of the radiator.
The aluminum radiator is going to be quite a bit more hurt by the airflow restriction than the copper/ brass one, so it should get better going back.
The best solution is to get rid of the condenser and use the aluminum radiator with good airflow.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: CrAlt]
#231985
03/08/09 06:06 PM
03/08/09 06:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,808 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 21,808
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
This
I wouldn't be buying the MP 5 blade if I was having cooling problems. Use a 7 blade. They even advertise the HP savings with the 5 blade (even over stock clutch units)...the only way to save HP is by moving LESS air.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: AHall]
#231988
03/08/09 06:26 PM
03/08/09 06:26 PM
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Posts: 74,911 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
But damn if this heat issue isnt bugging the hell out of me. Im taching 3000 RPM at 50 mph.
When I got home I popped the hood and grabbed the upper radiator hose going from the thermostat to the top of the radiator and it was hard as a rock. I let it cool, just went out there and it was squishy-- what does that indicate? Is my thermostat stuck?
That's a pretty high RPM for that RPM and 50mph ?
The hose should he hard since the system is under pressure , thats a good ting , and it should get soft once the car cools down as the pressure is much less if not gone .
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231990
03/08/09 06:28 PM
03/08/09 06:28 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
No. A clooged heater core would just mean no heat inside. Get your rpms down and get the slippage cured. Both of those cause excessive heat.
But it looks like he has a seperate trans cooler so the trans will have less of an effect on the cooling system , or is it plumbed into the rad also ?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231991
03/08/09 06:30 PM
03/08/09 06:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
If the problem was at low speed I could see the a/c condenser and trans cooler being the problem but his trouble is at highway speeds which should rule that out.
That's an air flow issue thru the rad .Here's a test , pull that fan setup out of the car and go for a ride ...
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: stumpy]
#231992
03/08/09 07:51 PM
03/08/09 07:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,092 Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
What will that show other than that the water moves.. You already know you don't have a problem at idle.
If for some reason the cylinder pressure is getting into the cooling system you might see some bubbles coming up with the car warmed up and radiator cap off. I have seen this type of issue cause a runaway temp condition that would only happen if the car was driven on the highway and then had to sit in traffic, i.e. at the end of an exit on Hwy 75 at 5pm.
Just a thought...
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: CrAlt]
#231995
03/08/09 08:32 PM
03/08/09 08:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,678 W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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W. Kentucky
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I had over heating problems on my aluminum headed small block Dart a few years ago. It had a new replacement radiator with a Flex o Lite Black Magic electric fan on it, standard wp and 180* thermostat. I went to a new aluminum radiator with a new Flex o Lite thin fan, 2700 cfm. It still ran hot so I changed to a Flow Kooler wp and a high flow 160* thermostat, still hot. The fix was a MP (5 blade) viscous fan package and a factory shroud that I modified to fit the aluminum radiator. My car doesn't have air so it's not apples to apples, just my experience . Edit** This car has 4.30 gears and a 9.5" 4400 converter.
Last edited by justinp61; 03/08/09 08:35 PM.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: CrAlt]
#231998
03/08/09 09:31 PM
03/08/09 09:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,884 Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy
I Win
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The condenser isn't blocked up.The picture makes it look bad but it's not. There is a good deal of room between the radiator and the condenser and there is space between the cooler and condenser. There is also plenty of air flow through the grille and under the bumper. He also has a air dam that is directing air up into the front. Air to the radiator isn't his problem. The radiator has a shroud that covers at bunch of the back side and leaves air through the fan area only. As I said earlier the fan housing has very close ribbing that cuts down a bunch on air flow.. That is a big restriction. AHall please post a better picture of the engine side of the radiator and fan for clarification. One more directly at it instead of from the side.
Last edited by stumpy; 03/08/09 09:43 PM.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: AHall]
#232000
03/09/09 07:31 AM
03/09/09 07:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646 Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Now im running 3.55's in the back (just verfied in but jacking up the Dana 60 and turning the tire an counting the driveshaft rev's) with a 25" tire. Im going to a 26.6" tire tomorrow.
But damn if this heat issue isnt bugging the hell out of me. Im taching 3000 RPM at 50 mph.
Assuming that your tire diameter of 25in is correct and the speedo/tach are also correct.... the [Email]3000rpm@50mph[/Email] is showing 24% converter slippage. This will generate a LOT of heat. If the transmission fluid is plumbed into the rad then into the cooler afterwards this is taxing the cooling system big time.
problem #1: the torque converter...it's on the way out based on the calculated slippage and generating too much heat.
problem #2: If the trans is plumbed into the rad then this is another contributing factor to your overheating at cruise speed. Run the B&M cooler as a stand alone unit after you replace the converter to reduce the load on your cooling system.
I've ran several loose converters over the years with the B&M stacked plate cooler with never a problem.
As for the rad, the aluminum unit should be plenty. My buddy runs a 22in Summit aluminum rad in his 671 supercharged B-body with a pusher fan and it cools fine in the summer heat in traffic....we all know how much heat Roots blowers generate.
In 95* ambiant air temps it stays between 195-200 in traffic jams. As soon as the car starts moving it drops down to 180. That car is also running a 4500 stall but the trans cooling is done through a stand alone unit. For reference : the previous rad was a re-cored 26in 3 row c-body unit that would hit 230* in light traffic on a warm day...the dual pass 22in alum rad was a huge improvement.
Ron
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: JohnRR]
#232002
03/09/09 12:13 PM
03/09/09 12:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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It's a long post... is there anyone that mentionned a problem with the engine generating too much heat? Seems like your trying to fix the symptom, not the cause. What is the cranking compression in each cylinder? To do this test, pull all eight plugs with the engine warmed up, and see what the gage tells you. Sounds like the thing has running issues.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: moper]
#232003
03/09/09 12:48 PM
03/09/09 12:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
It's a long post... is there anyone that mentioned a problem with the engine generating too much heat? Seems like your trying to fix the symptom, not the cause. What is the cranking compression in each cylinder? To do this test, pull all eight plugs with the engine warmed up, and see what the gage tells you. Sounds like the thing has running issues.
You are correct , he is working the symptom , he changed radiator and the stock fan to an alum rad and electric setup and NOW has a heating up issue .
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: AHall]
#232005
03/09/09 02:00 PM
03/09/09 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,911
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I also during this radiator/fan swap did go from a performer rpm intake to a CH4B intake- that wouldn't be any cause for concern would it?
no .
where's the pic showing the fan setup so we can see it's shrouding that stumpy mentioned ?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: JohnRR]
#232006
03/09/09 02:24 PM
03/09/09 02:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Ah. That is plenty of radiator for it as compared to factory brass. No way a convertor will throw enough heat on it's own thru it's own cooler to affect the radiator temps. It's not like they run at 400°. It's hot at 230-240, and it wouldnt stay there for long even lightly slipping while street driving. I'm assuming an AC car so it has the big radiator support too. So you need air flow. Period. What are the chances that the fan was bolted to the clutch backwards? They can go either way...
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: moper]
#232007
03/09/09 03:17 PM
03/09/09 03:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646 Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
So you need air flow. Period.
He's getting lots of airflow at cruise speed.
I'd like to know if his trans lines are going through the radiator or not...that would go a long way to determining the problem and eliminate some potential issues.
On many cars i've seen a 15-20* drop in engine temps when bypassing the radiator. If you don't think 20% slippage is a problem then you haven't been around too many 727 transmissions.
Ron
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: firefighter3931]
#232009
03/09/09 06:34 PM
03/09/09 06:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Quote:
If you don't think 20% slippage is a problem then you haven't been around too many 727 transmissions.
Ron
Not only have I been around them, I gotten paid to build them for 20 years...lol. Slippage factor is figured at full throttle, in direct (high) gear, above the convertor's stall speed. This is because all convertors have a ton of slip below the stall speed. So at light throttle cruise, the fluid in the convertor is not being forced past the vanes as hard, and they will slip like mad. It is a case of wrong convertor, which is really common. But there's not enough heat coming out thru the cooler to heat the radiator and affect engine temp.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#232010
03/09/09 07:31 PM
03/09/09 07:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,886 Lost and Spaced
bboogieart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,886
Lost and Spaced
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Quote:
Do you have the coil in the lower hose to prevent collapsing under low pressure from the WP?????
You know I thought this was mentioned but I just went through the thread and saw no mention or response, this is a very simple thing to check, and would most certainly cause this problem. By the way ahal how was your ride home with the new tires? no mention of that either. this is getting to be realy odd.Shouldn't be such a big thing. I hope you get it figured out soon.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: craigsmytcudas]
#232013
03/09/09 09:11 PM
03/09/09 09:11 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
the car of mention has been all over the net and the good folks on here have helped this guy spend a small fortune on parts through blind trust to no positive results . all parts mentioned here were installed after the heat issues
So, you are telling us the OP is misleading us as to when the problem started?
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: moper]
#232014
03/09/09 09:54 PM
03/09/09 09:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646 Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
If you don't think 20% slippage is a problem then you haven't been around too many 727 transmissions.
Ron
Not only have I been around them, I gotten paid to build them for 20 years...lol. Slippage factor is figured at full throttle, in direct (high) gear, above the convertor's stall speed. This is because all convertors have a ton of slip below the stall speed. So at light throttle cruise, the fluid in the convertor is not being forced past the vanes as hard, and they will slip like mad. It is a case of wrong convertor, which is really common. But there's not enough heat coming out thru the cooler to heat the radiator and affect engine temp.
Not trying to be a smart azz but did you read the thread...he's taching 3000 rpm at 50 mph. I would think that the converter is not slipping 20% at full lock-up. That must sound reasonable correct ?
I agree with you that the current rad is sufficient.
I'm not saying that my hypothesis is correct....but i have seen it before and the fix was by-passing the radiator.
Ron
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: craigsmytcudas]
#232015
03/09/09 09:56 PM
03/09/09 09:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646 Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Moper you should be proud after 4 pages of total crap you my friend can say you are the only one that gets it kudos. the car of mention has been all over the net and the good folks on here have helped this guy spend a small fortune on parts through blind trust to no positive results . all parts mentioned here were installed after the heat issues ,your point is spot on about looking at the engine . the heat gun will show hot spots on the exhaust headers i.e. glowing red .when matt the owner installed the larger carb and induced more fuel it just fueled the fire and hence got hoter yet .after all the screwing around i think the rings and valve springs are dead or close to it .now the fix who ever installed the heads would be the place i would start my look starting with shims under the rocker shafts = hanging ex valves also a slipped balancer and other poss timing issues = retarded timing etc. with all the people involved this car is fubared . one last point the trans could slip if the new intake has altered the kick down linkage and removed line presure .c
Another keyboard cowboy....whatever
The valvesprings went south all of a sudden...gimme a break.
Ron
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: craigsmytcudas]
#232016
03/09/09 09:58 PM
03/09/09 09:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,884 Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,884
Grand Prairie,Texas
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Quote:
Moper you should be proud after 4 pages of total crap you my friend can say you are the only one that gets it kudos. the car of mention has been all over the net and the good folks on here have helped this guy spend a small fortune on parts through blind trust to no positive results . all parts mentioned here were installed after the heat issues ,your point is spot on about looking at the engine . the heat gun will show hot spots on the exhaust headers i.e. glowing red .when matt the owner installed the larger carb and induced more fuel it just fueled the fire and hence got hoter yet .after all the screwing around i think the rings and valve springs are dead or close to it .now the fix who ever installed the heads would be the place i would start my look starting with shims under the rocker shafts = hanging ex valves also a slipped balancer and other poss timing issues = retarded timing etc. with all the people involved this car is fubared . one last point the trans could slip if the new intake has altered the kick down linkage and removed line presure .c
Perhaps you could tell us where you got all your experinece and when you actually looked and worked on this car that you seem to know all about.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: firefighter3931]
#232017
03/09/09 09:59 PM
03/09/09 09:59 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I just reread the entire thread.
First post said it was good at speed, but heated up idle.
Later on, Stumpy says it was fine at idle and hot at speed (I think this is more likely correct).
On page two, the OP says with the original rad, fan, shroud, it ran great at 2 lines off of C, which says it hasn't always had a heating issue. Why the resistance to going back?
Just too many things that don't add up here for anyone to do much of anything.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
#232018
03/09/09 11:08 PM
03/09/09 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,065 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,065
Irving, TX
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Ahall, I'm in Irving just east of the airport. Bring it over in a couple weeks and we'll get it fixed. If I can cool the TT440, I can cool yours too. I have a machine gun shoot this weekend. If you don't want your car riddled by belt fed 50 calibers you might want to wait. There are a number of pullies and mechanical fans lurking about my garage. I have a couple different flex fans as well as a monster C-body 7 blade factory clutch fan. If they fix the problem, they're yours.
You are likely being double teamed. 1) crappy fan 2) tight shroud
Take that fan off and watch the engine run cool on the highway. Better yet, take it off and throw it as far as you can. They don't flow enough air. I had all different sizes of them. None of them are on the car now. Every time I installed one as a pusher the car heated up on the highway. Yes, even when run with a puller. They simply don't move enough air.
The shroud is probably blocking air movement at speed as well. Fans and shrouds are only useful below 35 mph. Anywhere above that, they're a hinderance. Even Chrysler turned off the cooling fans on a 2.2 turbo at 35 mph.
I've got stuff around here to build a different shroud for testing so we don't hack yours needlessly.
Another thing we can do is install a thermostatic switch so the fan doesn't run when it's not needed. That makes for a tidy install.
If nothing else works, we can try to fit one of my monster Mercedes fans. Those will cool it. The drawack would be having to upgrade the charging system.
We can get you fixed and stop wasting money.
I'm not able to post here from work so send me an e-mail if you like.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: feets]
#232019
09/13/09 09:12 PM
09/13/09 09:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 885 alberta
Publicbottle
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 885
alberta
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IN CONCLUSION.......................!! What ended up happening here....? anyone
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: Publicbottle]
#232020
09/14/09 10:17 AM
09/14/09 10:17 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I had a problem with a 440 in a 56 Dodge pickup. After about 20 min of driving the temp would be at 230. Tried reducing the speed of water through the system with no change at all changed the thermostat. No help. When changing the thermostat noticed a couple of inches under it in the housing there was a hole drilled into the other side (inlet). Tapped and put a 1/4 pipe plug in the hole. That cured the problem. The engine would go up to 195 (that was the thermostat) and not go any higher. Can someone tell me why they drill a hole from the inlet to the outlet side of the water pump housing? Anyway, overheating problem solved!
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: Dusted_Ya]
#232024
09/16/09 12:11 AM
09/16/09 12:11 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 847 Avondale AZ
Prodart440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 847
Avondale AZ
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I didn't put a gun to mine, but after holding the RPM's at 2500 for a couple of minuates (in park) the headers were glowing red. Could it be lean, or too much timing? Car runs cool at low speeds, but on the freeway at higher RPM it runs HOT!!
Aaron
68 Roadrunner 383/AT 69 Dart GT Conv. 383/AT 05 Dodge Ram 4x4 Cummins 06 GoManGo R/T Daytona #757 68 Coronet 440
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: Prodart440]
#232025
09/16/09 10:09 AM
09/16/09 10:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,065 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,065
Irving, TX
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Glowing headers sounds too lean.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: fox]
#232027
09/18/09 01:04 AM
09/18/09 01:04 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 847 Avondale AZ
Prodart440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 847
Avondale AZ
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I think I agree on the too lean. I took my distributor to have it checked. It is set at 15* initial and 34* all in by 2500 rpm. If this is right, my headers are now glowing even more. I will try to richen the secondaries and see how that goes. Any other suggestions??
Aaron
68 Roadrunner 383/AT 69 Dart GT Conv. 383/AT 05 Dodge Ram 4x4 Cummins 06 GoManGo R/T Daytona #757 68 Coronet 440
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum *DELETED*
[Re: Prodart440]
#232028
04/24/10 09:35 PM
04/24/10 09:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423 DFW Texas
AHall
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 423
DFW Texas
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Post deleted by AHall
Last edited by AHall; 05/04/10 12:44 PM.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: gtx69]
#232030
04/24/10 10:55 PM
04/24/10 10:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Produces a hell of a lot of heat esp if it is a 4k stall. It would always slip on the street. I don't know how that can really be that streetable.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: gtx69]
#232032
04/25/10 12:51 AM
04/25/10 12:51 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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You can run a stand alone unit but that is a lot of heat. If the lines currently go into the radiator they are basically heating up the coolant. I just caught the tail end of this thread so I'm not sure exactly what he has for a setup.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
[Re: JoesMopar]
#232039
05/01/10 11:36 PM
05/01/10 11:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 799 Missouri
bb74swngr
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 799
Missouri
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Went through all of this with by 440 Dart. My overheating problem turn out to be low fuel pressure ala too lean. It would change depending on what day it was, hot at idle one day, hot driving the next. New fuel pump and it was cool...really. Doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not, that's what fixed my overheating. Russ:)
BigBlock 74 Swinger
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