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#232000 - 03/09/09 05:31 AM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: AHall]
firefighter3931 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 1637
Loc: Ontario,Canada
Quote:



Now im running 3.55's in the back (just verfied in but jacking up the Dana 60 and turning the tire an counting the driveshaft rev's) with a 25" tire. Im going to a 26.6" tire tomorrow.

But damn if this heat issue isnt bugging the hell out of me. Im taching 3000 RPM at 50 mph.







Assuming that your tire diameter of 25in is correct and the speedo/tach are also correct.... the [Email]3000rpm@50mph[/Email] is showing 24% converter slippage. This will generate a LOT of heat. If the transmission fluid is plumbed into the rad then into the cooler afterwards this is taxing the cooling system big time.

problem #1: the torque converter...it's on the way out based on the calculated slippage and generating too much heat.

problem #2: If the trans is plumbed into the rad then this is another contributing factor to your overheating at cruise speed. Run the B&M cooler as a stand alone unit after you replace the converter to reduce the load on your cooling system.

I've ran several loose converters over the years with the B&M stacked plate cooler with never a problem.

As for the rad, the aluminum unit should be plenty. My buddy runs a 22in Summit aluminum rad in his 671 supercharged B-body with a pusher fan and it cools fine in the summer heat in traffic....we all know how much heat Roots blowers generate.

In 95* ambiant air temps it stays between 195-200 in traffic jams. As soon as the car starts moving it drops down to 180. That car is also running a 4500 stall but the trans cooling is done through a stand alone unit. For reference : the previous rad was a re-cored 26in 3 row c-body unit that would hit 230* in light traffic on a warm day...the dual pass 22in alum rad was a huge improvement.



Ron

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#232001 - 03/09/09 09:54 AM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: firefighter3931]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
someone said a wirty dord

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#232002 - 03/09/09 10:13 AM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: JohnRR]
moper Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 12675
Loc: Columbia, CT
It's a long post... is there anyone that mentionned a problem with the engine generating too much heat? Seems like your trying to fix the symptom, not the cause. What is the cranking compression in each cylinder? To do this test, pull all eight plugs with the engine warmed up, and see what the gage tells you. Sounds like the thing has running issues.
_________________________
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.

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#232003 - 03/09/09 10:48 AM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: moper]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

It's a long post... is there anyone that mentioned a problem with the engine generating too much heat? Seems like your trying to fix the symptom, not the cause. What is the cranking compression in each cylinder? To do this test, pull all eight plugs with the engine warmed up, and see what the gage tells you. Sounds like the thing has running issues.




You are correct , he is working the symptom , he changed radiator and the stock fan to an alum rad and electric setup and NOW has a heating up issue .

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#232004 - 03/09/09 11:46 AM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad [Re: CrAlt]
AHall Offline


Registered: 04/19/08
Posts: 423
Loc: DFW Texas
I also during this radiator/fan swap did go from a performer rpm intake to a CH4B intake- that wouldn't be any cause for concern would it?

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#232005 - 03/09/09 12:00 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: AHall]
JohnRR Offline
I Win

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 73560
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Quote:

I also during this radiator/fan swap did go from a performer rpm intake to a CH4B intake- that wouldn't be any cause for concern would it?




no .

where's the pic showing the fan setup so we can see it's shrouding that stumpy mentioned ?

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#232006 - 03/09/09 12:24 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: JohnRR]
moper Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 12675
Loc: Columbia, CT
Ah. That is plenty of radiator for it as compared to factory brass. No way a convertor will throw enough heat on it's own thru it's own cooler to affect the radiator temps. It's not like they run at 400. It's hot at 230-240, and it wouldnt stay there for long even lightly slipping while street driving. I'm assuming an AC car so it has the big radiator support too. So you need air flow. Period. What are the chances that the fan was bolted to the clutch backwards? They can go either way...
_________________________
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.

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#232007 - 03/09/09 01:17 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: moper]
firefighter3931 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 1637
Loc: Ontario,Canada
Quote:


So you need air flow. Period.






He's getting lots of airflow at cruise speed.


I'd like to know if his trans lines are going through the radiator or not...that would go a long way to determining the problem and eliminate some potential issues.

On many cars i've seen a 15-20* drop in engine temps when bypassing the radiator. If you don't think 20% slippage is a problem then you haven't been around too many 727 transmissions.


Ron

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#232008 - 03/09/09 02:05 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
71_440SuperBee Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/11/08
Posts: 402
Loc: MidWest
Quote:

Do you have the coil in the lower hose to prevent collapsing under low pressure from the WP?????



If I paid attention,I believe this was the only time this was mentioned............ Unless I missed it. It was my problem in the exact same kind of car,440 a little spiced up,tight gears,fine cruising around,got hot on the freeway! Found the coil was not there,(new hose,I did not put one in),put one in,problem solved.
_________________________
'71 383HP B5 Charger SE

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#232009 - 03/09/09 04:34 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: firefighter3931]
moper Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 12675
Loc: Columbia, CT
Quote:

If you don't think 20% slippage is a problem then you haven't been around too many 727 transmissions.


Ron




Not only have I been around them, I gotten paid to build them for 20 years...lol. Slippage factor is figured at full throttle, in direct (high) gear, above the convertor's stall speed. This is because all convertors have a ton of slip below the stall speed. So at light throttle cruise, the fluid in the convertor is not being forced past the vanes as hard, and they will slip like mad. It is a case of wrong convertor, which is really common. But there's not enough heat coming out thru the cooler to heat the radiator and affect engine temp.
_________________________
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.

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#232010 - 03/09/09 05:31 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum rad [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
bboogieart Offline
master

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 3695
Loc: Lost and Spaced
Quote:

Do you have the coil in the lower hose to prevent collapsing under low pressure from the WP?????



You know I thought this was mentioned but I just went through the thread and saw no mention or response, this is a very simple thing to check, and would most certainly cause this problem. By the way ahal how was your ride home with the new tires? no mention of that either. this is getting to be realy odd.Shouldn't be such a big thing. I hope you get it figured out soon.

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#232011 - 03/09/09 06:47 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: moper]
craigsmytcudas Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 329
Loc: tx
Moper you should be proud after 4 pages of total crap you my friend can say you are the only one that gets it kudos. the car of mention has been all over the net and the good folks on here have helped this guy spend a small fortune on parts through blind trust to no positive results . all parts mentioned here were installed after the heat issues ,your point is spot on about looking at the engine . the heat gun will show hot spots on the exhaust headers i.e. glowing red .when matt the owner installed the larger carb and induced more fuel it just fueled the fire and hence got hoter yet .after all the screwing around i think the rings and valve springs are dead or close to it .now the fix who ever installed the heads would be the place i would start my look starting with shims under the rocker shafts = hanging ex valves also a slipped balancer and other poss timing issues = retarded timing etc. with all the people involved this car is fubared . one last point the trans could slip if the new intake has altered the kick down linkage and removed line presure .c

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#232012 - 03/09/09 06:54 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: craigsmytcudas]
craigsmytcudas Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 329
Loc: tx
One last thing moper pm me if you ever want to chat .as for this thread i wont be further involved in this cluster pluck .c

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#232013 - 03/09/09 07:11 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: craigsmytcudas]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

the car of mention has been all over the net and the good folks on here have helped this guy spend a small fortune on parts through blind trust to no positive results . all parts mentioned here were installed after the heat issues




So, you are telling us the OP is misleading us as to when the problem started?

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#232014 - 03/09/09 07:54 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: moper]
firefighter3931 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 1637
Loc: Ontario,Canada
Quote:

Quote:

If you don't think 20% slippage is a problem then you haven't been around too many 727 transmissions.


Ron




Not only have I been around them, I gotten paid to build them for 20 years...lol. Slippage factor is figured at full throttle, in direct (high) gear, above the convertor's stall speed. This is because all convertors have a ton of slip below the stall speed. So at light throttle cruise, the fluid in the convertor is not being forced past the vanes as hard, and they will slip like mad. It is a case of wrong convertor, which is really common. But there's not enough heat coming out thru the cooler to heat the radiator and affect engine temp.





Not trying to be a smart azz but did you read the thread...he's taching 3000 rpm at 50 mph. I would think that the converter is not slipping 20% at full lock-up. That must sound reasonable correct ?


I agree with you that the current rad is sufficient.

I'm not saying that my hypothesis is correct....but i have seen it before and the fix was by-passing the radiator.


Ron

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#232015 - 03/09/09 07:56 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: craigsmytcudas]
firefighter3931 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 1637
Loc: Ontario,Canada
Quote:

Moper you should be proud after 4 pages of total crap you my friend can say you are the only one that gets it kudos. the car of mention has been all over the net and the good folks on here have helped this guy spend a small fortune on parts through blind trust to no positive results . all parts mentioned here were installed after the heat issues ,your point is spot on about looking at the engine . the heat gun will show hot spots on the exhaust headers i.e. glowing red .when matt the owner installed the larger carb and induced more fuel it just fueled the fire and hence got hoter yet .after all the screwing around i think the rings and valve springs are dead or close to it .now the fix who ever installed the heads would be the place i would start my look starting with shims under the rocker shafts = hanging ex valves also a slipped balancer and other poss timing issues = retarded timing etc. with all the people involved this car is fubared . one last point the trans could slip if the new intake has altered the kick down linkage and removed line presure .c





Another keyboard cowboy....whatever

The valvesprings went south all of a sudden...gimme a break.


Ron

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#232016 - 03/09/09 07:58 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: craigsmytcudas]
stumpy Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 29806
Loc: Grand Prairie,Texas
Quote:

Moper you should be proud after 4 pages of total crap you my friend can say you are the only one that gets it kudos. the car of mention has been all over the net and the good folks on here have helped this guy spend a small fortune on parts through blind trust to no positive results . all parts mentioned here were installed after the heat issues ,your point is spot on about looking at the engine . the heat gun will show hot spots on the exhaust headers i.e. glowing red .when matt the owner installed the larger carb and induced more fuel it just fueled the fire and hence got hoter yet .after all the screwing around i think the rings and valve springs are dead or close to it .now the fix who ever installed the heads would be the place i would start my look starting with shims under the rocker shafts = hanging ex valves also a slipped balancer and other poss timing issues = retarded timing etc. with all the people involved this car is fubared . one last point the trans could slip if the new intake has altered the kick down linkage and removed line presure .c




Perhaps you could tell us where you got all your experinece and when you actually looked and worked on this car that you seem to know all about.

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#232017 - 03/09/09 07:59 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: firefighter3931]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just reread the entire thread.

First post said it was good at speed, but heated up idle.

Later on, Stumpy says it was fine at idle and hot at speed (I think this is more likely correct).

On page two, the OP says with the original rad, fan, shroud, it ran great at 2 lines off of C, which says it hasn't always had a heating issue. Why the resistance to going back?

Just too many things that don't add up here for anyone to do much of anything.

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#232018 - 03/09/09 09:08 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum
feets Offline
Senior Management

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 27320
Loc: Irving, TX
Ahall, I'm in Irving just east of the airport. Bring it over in a couple weeks and we'll get it fixed. If I can cool the TT440, I can cool yours too.
I have a machine gun shoot this weekend. If you don't want your car riddled by belt fed 50 calibers you might want to wait.
There are a number of pullies and mechanical fans lurking about my garage. I have a couple different flex fans as well as a monster C-body 7 blade factory clutch fan. If they fix the problem, they're yours.

You are likely being double teamed.
1) crappy fan
2) tight shroud

Take that fan off and watch the engine run cool on the highway.
Better yet, take it off and throw it as far as you can. They don't flow enough air. I had all different sizes of them. None of them are on the car now.
Every time I installed one as a pusher the car heated up on the highway. Yes, even when run with a puller.
They simply don't move enough air.

The shroud is probably blocking air movement at speed as well. Fans and shrouds are only useful below 35 mph. Anywhere above that, they're a hinderance. Even Chrysler turned off the cooling fans on a 2.2 turbo at 35 mph.

I've got stuff around here to build a different shroud for testing so we don't hack yours needlessly.

Another thing we can do is install a thermostatic switch so the fan doesn't run when it's not needed. That makes for a tidy install.

If nothing else works, we can try to fit one of my monster Mercedes fans. Those will cool it. The drawack would be having to upgrade the charging system.

We can get you fixed and stop wasting money.

I'm not able to post here from work so send me an e-mail if you like.

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#232019 - 09/13/09 07:12 PM Re: Still running hot in traffic with the new aluminum [Re: feets]
Publicbottle Offline
super stock

Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 879
Loc: alberta
IN CONCLUSION.......................!!

What ended up happening here....?

anyone

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