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#2278038 - 03/28/17 08:44 PM 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
AndyF Offline
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Got the new dry sump 470 up and running today. We broke it in and made a few pulls. It was making really nice power for being brand new, probably pick up a few more hp once everything gets sealed up properly.

First round of testing is with the Trick Flow 240 cc heads and then I'll switch over to the 270 cc heads for some back to back testing. I'll keep the same shortblock, cam, carb between heads but will have to change the intake manifold. I'm using the Wilson ported Mopar intake with the 240 heads but will use an as cast Indy 400-3 for the 270 tests. I'm sure the Indy intake will cost me some power but the 270 heads should more than make up for it.


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#2278044 - 03/28/17 08:50 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
LowDeck451 Offline
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Beyond my pay grade but interesting nonetheless! Thanks for sharing!

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#2278061 - 03/28/17 09:23 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
ccdave Offline
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Nice set up Andy!

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#2278067 - 03/28/17 09:34 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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The new low profile billet dry sump pan seems to be working just fine. The oil level in the tank doesn't drop much as RPM goes up so that means the oil is being pulled out of the engine at the correct rate. I need to take a video of the oil level before I know for sure how this new pan is working but so far it seems to be fine. Oil pressure climbs with RPM which is good news.


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#2278084 - 03/28/17 10:04 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Here is a link to a video of the console during a couple of the pulls we made today. Engine ran good, a leaky header gasket had us chasing our tails for a little while. When the header gasket leaks it makes the wideband sensors wonky. We thought we had a carb problem for a little bit until we figured out we just had a header gasket issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIUHd-2C1qY&feature=youtu.be

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#2278100 - 03/28/17 10:31 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Azzkikrcuda Offline
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You should test the 270 heads with the same Wilson Modded M1 intake to see what it does even with the port mismatch. Since the intake Trick Flow recommends for these heads has a std. port window. I would be interested in the results of that test.
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#2278106 - 03/28/17 10:39 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Azzkikrcuda]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Originally Posted By Azzkikrcuda
You should test the 270 heads with the same Wilson Modded M1 intake to see what it does even with the port mismatch. Since the intake Trick Flow recommends for these heads has a std. port window. I would be interested in the results of that test.


I agree....... That really seems like the logical progression in the testing....... Especially since TF says that's what they used for their evaluation of the 270 heads.
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#2278114 - 03/28/17 11:02 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
sasquatch Offline
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Or a kind soul could let you borrow a nicely ported 400-3 intake.....
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#2278122 - 03/28/17 11:12 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: sasquatch]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Originally Posted By sasquatch
Or a kind soul could let you borrow a nicely ported 400-3 intake.....


Sure...... As the third one in the sequence.
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#2278126 - 03/28/17 11:16 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Originally Posted By Azzkikrcuda
You should test the 270 heads with the same Wilson Modded M1 intake to see what it does even with the port mismatch. Since the intake Trick Flow recommends for these heads has a std. port window. I would be interested in the results of that test.


I agree....... That really seems like the logical progression in the testing....... Especially since TF says that's what they used for their evaluation of the 270 heads.


Regardless of what TF says, I do not think the Wilson intake will work with the 270 heads. It bolts on there okay but there is so little material around the ports that I don't think the gasket can properly seal. I looked at it and decided not to run it since I didn't want to suck in the gasket during a pull.

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#2278128 - 03/28/17 11:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: sasquatch]
AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted By sasquatch
Or a kind soul could let you borrow a nicely ported 400-3 intake.....


Might be an option down the road. I'm testing this week and it would cost a ton to overnight an intake across the country.

Depending on how things go I might do another round of testing down the road after I send this 400-3 off for porting. Might be nice to have another ported 400-3 on hand at that point to do a comparison.

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#2278132 - 03/28/17 11:21 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Here is a walk around the engine while it is warming. The engine oil is interesting. It is a 5w-30 break in oil that is super clear. You can see it spraying around on the rocker arms but it doesn't block the view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlw70nAao38

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#2278134 - 03/28/17 11:27 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Does the TF intake cover the ports of the 270 heads better than the m1?
If so, you could test that one on both sets of heads.
_________________________
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#2278136 - 03/28/17 11:32 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Yes, the TF has more material around the ports and it would probably seal up on the 270 heads. But it is a 4150 flange which throws another variable into the mix. I don't really want to do a 2 x 2 x 2 matrix of heads, intakes and carbs.

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#2278137 - 03/28/17 11:40 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Everyone has their own priorities when testing, but to my way of thinking....... To not do a back to back test where the only thing changed is the heads, really just muddies the waters about how the heads themselves compare.

Test the 240 heads with the TF intake and the 4150 carb of your choice..... Get a number.
Put the intake and carb back on the 270 heads as the starting point..... Get a number.
That's a back to back comparison without anything else skewing the results.
_________________________
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#2278201 - 03/29/17 07:20 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
BradH Online   content
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popcorn

Also, what are the dimensions of those dyno headers? scope
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#2278239 - 03/29/17 09:22 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Why not just test the 240 heads w/ a comparable out of the box manifold like you're gonna do w/ the 270 heads?
Most people will not spend the big bucks like you did to have Wilson work their magic on an intake, so IMO you're giving the 240 heads an unfair advantage that will close the gap b/t the 2 heads.
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#2278276 - 03/29/17 10:37 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
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I think using the Trick Flow Intake on both set ups would accomplish some of that.
If adding compression and dry sump added 10 hp to the 240/ Wilson/ dominator configuration and we could see what the difference is with the trick flow Intake and 4150 Carb is- perhaps a pretty good baseline for seeing the difference the 270 heads make.

I really think the trick flow intake / 4150 Carb comparison is important and from there the
Other available intake/ carb combos .

Will a 337 intake make a good port match to the 270 heads .
Wondering what a 950 or 1000 cfm 4150 looks like on the 270 heads ?

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#2278280 - 03/29/17 10:46 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: BradH]
AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted By BradH
popcorn

Also, what are the dimensions of those dyno headers? scope


2 x 32 with 3.5 collectors made by old Jere himself back around 2000 or so. They have held up well over the years. They were super expensive back then but I suppose it has been a good value over the years.

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#2278282 - 03/29/17 10:52 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: an8sec70cuda]
AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
Why not just test the 240 heads w/ a comparable out of the box manifold like you're gonna do w/ the 270 heads?
Most people will not spend the big bucks like you did to have Wilson work their magic on an intake, so IMO you're giving the 240 heads an unfair advantage that will close the gap b/t the 2 heads.


Out of the box intakes stink, I've already proven that to myself multiple times with the 240 heads. The Victor 383 sucked, the Mopar M1 sucked, The Trick Flow intake didn't completely suck but it wasn't very good until Hughes did the deep port match. The Wilson modified M1 is the best low deck intake I have so that is my starting point. I expect the Indy intake to be fairly poor but we'll find out shortly.

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#2278295 - 03/29/17 11:13 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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So you won't be giving anyone a real world test to go by. I'd bet 99% of people reading about this test will use an out of the box intake if they were to use these heads.

Small heads w/ an expensive great flowing intake versus big heads w/ a crappy flowing intake. I'd like to see how much the bigger heads are worth over the smaller ones w/o having to make an assumption about the difference the intakes make.
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CHIP
'70 hemicuda...8.91 at 150.5 mph street car...Mopar Action feature Dec. '14
'69 road runner 446" w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
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#2278305 - 03/29/17 11:56 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
4406forPOWER Offline
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Andy, did you just have Wilson do their Competition porting on your M1? I'm looking at getting a 4150 version done. Thanks

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#2278310 - 03/29/17 12:10 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
justinp61 Online   content
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Apples to oranges IMO. Realistically all you are doing is testing two engine combinations, no compairisons.

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#2278312 - 03/29/17 12:13 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: justinp61]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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Originally Posted By justinp61
Apples to oranges IMO. Realistically all you are doing is testing two engine combinations, no compairisons.

iagree
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CHIP
'70 hemicuda...8.91 at 150.5 mph street car...Mopar Action feature Dec. '14
'69 road runner 446" w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
'01 Ram 2500 QCSB 4x4 Cummins...toy hauler
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#2278323 - 03/29/17 12:26 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Clanton Offline
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Do you have oil restriction on the head in any way?Rocker oiling?
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#2278337 - 03/29/17 12:41 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: an8sec70cuda]
KOS Offline
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Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
So you won't be giving anyone a real world test to go by. I'd bet 99% of people reading about this test will use an out of the box intake if they were to use these heads.

Small heads w/ an expensive great flowing intake versus big heads w/ a crappy flowing intake. I'd like to see how much the bigger heads are worth over the smaller ones w/o having to make an assumption about the difference the intakes make.


100% correct....whether its down on power or not your going to give it a fair comparison.the only way to do it is same manifold on both.

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#2278365 - 03/29/17 01:38 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
gregsdart Offline
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Why not look at how each head works compared to the other, running the intake that most people would run for that port size? It doesn't make sense to me to do it any other way. The one thing I would do would be a port match, so each head/manifold COMBO is getting a fair shake on the dyno, and would be very representative of the way each head will be used.


Edited by gregsdart (03/29/17 01:40 PM)
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#2278372 - 03/29/17 01:47 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
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I have to wonder what the costs are in having intakes for both heads models and those port matched for each, not to mention dyno time.

I too was hoping for direct comparisons but, it does seem costly.

Just my thoughts.

Perhaps the best comparison at this point would be the trick flow Intake with the same Carb / spacer set up he used on the 240 engine.
We know the difference the dry dump/ compression made, thus we can extrapolate from that point- perhaps?

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#2278375 - 03/29/17 01:53 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
BradH Online   content
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Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By BradH
popcorn

Also, what are the dimensions of those dyno headers? scope


2 x 32 with 3.5 collectors made by old Jere himself back around 2000 or so. They have held up well over the years. They were super expensive back then but I suppose it has been a good value over the years.

drool
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#2278381 - 03/29/17 02:01 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
an8sec70cuda Offline
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I bet you could buy 2 new Trick Flow manifolds for less than just the port work on that one MP manifold from Wilson cost.
_________________________
CHIP
'70 hemicuda...8.91 at 150.5 mph street car...Mopar Action feature Dec. '14
'69 road runner 446" w/ Indy SRs
'69 road runner 440-6, 4 speed...Dad's ride
'71 Demon 340 resto project
'01 Ram 2500 QCSB 4x4 Cummins...toy hauler
'16 Grand Caravan SXT...baby hauler

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#2278383 - 03/29/17 02:04 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
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I'm sure we could by two.
I think the Wilson was to " see what's possible ".
What's possible was pretty cool.

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#2278385 - 03/29/17 02:05 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: 4406forPOWER]
AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted By 4406forPOWER
Andy, did you just have Wilson do their Competition porting on your M1? I'm looking at getting a 4150 version done. Thanks


Yes it was the competition porting package. They added a lot of weld material on the outside of the runners in order to open them up to where they needed to be for a 470 inch engine.

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#2278390 - 03/29/17 02:12 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
BradH Online   content
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Originally Posted By RustyM
I have to wonder what the costs are in having intakes for both heads models and those port matched for each, not to mention dyno time.

I'll take a w.a.g. at about $1500 for what you described, including some (not all) of the dyno expenses.
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#2278393 - 03/29/17 02:17 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
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Yep- multiply that by several model intakes,,,,,,,,

Oh for endless budgets!

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#2278410 - 03/29/17 03:11 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
csk Online   content
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Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?

Thanks Charlie
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#2278476 - 03/29/17 05:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: csk]
ou812 Offline


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We'll have our 270 heads soon...hope we don't go outside the usable rpm range of the hyd. roller cam with them.

Andy are you going to try the edelbrock Victor MW intake on the 270 heads?
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#2278504 - 03/29/17 06:48 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: ou812]
AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted By ou812
We'll have our 270 heads soon...hope we don't go outside the usable rpm range of the hyd. roller cam with them.

Andy are you going to try the edelbrock Victor MW intake on the 270 heads?


I'm on a low deck so my Wilson prepped Super Victor will not fit. If that intake would fit then it is the one I'd use. (although the ports in that intake are larger than the small window ports that TF put in the 270 head)

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#2278505 - 03/29/17 06:49 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Got the engine stripped down to the short block this morning and put back together before lunch with the 270 heads. We'll fire it up in the morning.


Attachments
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#2278507 - 03/29/17 06:55 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: csk]
AndyF Offline
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Originally Posted By csk
Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?

Thanks Charlie


Just depends on your point of view. The average bracket guy can bolt it on and run just fine but if you're trying to squeeze power out of an engine they leave a lot to be desired. The port size is small, the plenum is poorly cast, etc. If you ever have the chance to compare an Indy intake casting next to a Trick Flow casting you'll see that Indy doesn't really put much effort into their pattern making. The plenum on my 440-3 is really sloppy. The cloverleaf pattern is uneven and the casting quality is kind of poor. On a high horsepower engine that uneven pattern is going to mess up the fuel distribution between cylinders. If you compare a raw Indy casting to an intake that Wilson has prepped you'll see a world of difference.

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#2278525 - 03/29/17 07:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
csk Online   content
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Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By csk
Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?

Thanks Charlie


Just depends on your point of view. The average bracket guy can bolt it on and run just fine but if you're trying to squeeze power out of an engine they leave a lot to be desired. The port size is small, the plenum is poorly cast, etc. If you ever have the chance to compare an Indy intake casting next to a Trick Flow casting you'll see that Indy doesn't really put much effort into their pattern making. The plenum on my 440-3 is really sloppy. The cloverleaf pattern is uneven and the casting quality is kind of poor. On a high horsepower engine that uneven pattern is going to mess up the fuel distribution between cylinders. If you compare a raw Indy casting to an intake that Wilson has prepped you'll see a world of difference.


Thanks Andy, not much choice on the low deck max wedge, when I got mine had to open up the ports to MW, & clean up the plenum, but mine is mostly a street car. Thanks again.
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#2278550 - 03/29/17 08:25 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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This is the port match out of the box for the Indy 400-3. My guess is that you are leaving 5% of the power on the table if you run this intake as is. The port match isn't even close to be correct. If Indy would just spend 5 minutes and run a CNC pass around each port and matched it to their intake port it would save the little guy a bunch of time and effort.


Attachments
DSC_0465 (Large).JPG




Edited by AndyF (03/29/17 08:26 PM)

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#2278579 - 03/29/17 09:09 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
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2 sides to every argument......
The opposite view to "ootb intakes suck" is.... I've made 850hp with an ootb Indy 440-3.
_________________________
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#2278607 - 03/29/17 09:40 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
csk Online   content
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picture is not great, but my 400-2 looks about the same as Andy's

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#2278611 - 03/29/17 09:46 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
csk Online   content
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
2 sides to every argument......
The opposite view to "ootb intakes suck" is.... I've made 850hp with an ootb Indy 440-3.


Thats good to know,, WAY more power than my combination can make smile
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#2278644 - 03/29/17 10:25 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
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How much of what we see in these mismatches can be attributed to core shift and how much to manufacturers not matching intakes to heads?

Thanks for all the helpful info guys- appreciate all you share.

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#2278680 - 03/29/17 11:05 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HotRodDave Offline
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I kind of like having a good port necked down a smidge at the opening so I can match it exactly to my heads, it makes the manifold a little more flexible as to what it will work with.
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#2278822 - 03/30/17 10:32 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By RustyM
How much of what we see in these mismatches can be attributed to core shift and how much to manufacturers not matching intakes to heads?

Thanks for all the helpful info guys- appreciate all you share.


I consider it a missed opportunity by the mfgs to make extra money. If I sold CNC heads and I sold intake manifolds then the very least thing I would do is offer a CNC matching intake for an additional charge. The intake manifold already has to be in a machining center in order to surface the carb pad and drill and tap the bolts. Why not spend another 5 minutes of machine time and CNC the plenum for an extra $100 of revenue?

Indy will CNC their dual plan intake to MW size if you ask so they know how to do this work. No idea why they don't take the next step and provide a good port match on the rest of their intakes.

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#2278987 - 03/30/17 03:15 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
So air flow was 887 -890 cfm with 240 heads on that set up?

Be nice to know what it is with the 270 as well.

Thanks

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#2279199 - 03/30/17 09:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Loc: Oregon
Had some issues today but did manage to get some pulls done. One thing we figured out was that the billet valve covers are worth some horsepower so we switched over to them mid-day.


Attachments
DSC_0493 (Large).JPG




Edited by AndyF (03/30/17 09:19 PM)

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#2279231 - 03/30/17 09:54 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Twostick Offline
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Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 4709
Loc: Downtown Roebuck Ont
Well it's too early for April Fools so what's the deal?

Bulletproof valvetrain is distorting the head because of giant roller cam spring pressure so the billet valve covers act as a girdle?

I don't see any oil lines to them for spring coolers. work shruggy

Kevin

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#2279237 - 03/30/17 10:00 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Twostick]
Skeptic Offline
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Better sealing with a vacuum pump?
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#2279248 - 03/30/17 10:08 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
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Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Probably that throttle return spring not matching the valve covers.

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#2279257 - 03/30/17 10:15 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Pan vacuum

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#2279268 - 03/30/17 10:34 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Twostick Offline
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Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 4709
Loc: Downtown Roebuck Ont
Originally Posted By AndyF
Pan vacuum


How much were you losing?

I would think the other covers would leak oil if it was that serious of a vacuum leak but I guess the vacuum would prevent that.

At atmospheric they probably sealed up fine to keep oil in so negative pressure distorted the clear tops?

Kevin

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#2279315 - 03/30/17 11:35 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Picked up more than 10 hp by changing covers. No distortion, the vacuum just sucked in the gasket. We saw the pan vacuum drop so we started checking for a leak. Couldn't fix the valve cover in time so swapped on the billet valve covers and gained power.

Holding pan vacuum was one of the primary reason why I designed the billet valve covers in the first place. None of the other valve covers that I tried would seal up tight so I made my own.

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#2279363 - 03/31/17 04:17 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Please forgive a dumb question but, I won't know if I don't ask:
How does the pan vacuum make more power?
Better ring sealing?
Oil staying away from crank journals?

Thanks

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#2279393 - 03/31/17 07:37 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
PETE@BESTMACHINE Offline


Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 389
Loc: SouthEast Michigan
Would be nice to see actual dyno sheets to back up all these claims of horse power changes. Just saying
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#2279406 - 03/31/17 08:08 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: PETE@BESTMACHINE]
Coldart Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 83
Loc: Minnesota
Who's oil pan?
Looks nice, clean/sanitary package.

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#2279445 - 03/31/17 09:26 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
You can see the pulls on you tube Pete.
Not as much data as a sheet but, the screen recording does help.

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#2279513 - 03/31/17 10:50 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Coldart]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Coldart
Who's oil pan?
Looks nice, clean/sanitary package.


Oil pan is one I had custom made. It is a billet pan.


Attachments
DSC_0291 (Large).JPG

DSC_9640 (Large).JPG



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#2279516 - 03/31/17 10:50 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: PETE@BESTMACHINE]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By PETE@BESTMACHINE
Would be nice to see actual dyno sheets to back up all these claims of horse power changes. Just saying


Who prints dyno sheets anymore Pete? I'm all digital these days.

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#2279519 - 03/31/17 10:52 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By RustyM
Please forgive a dumb question but, I won't know if I don't ask:
How does the pan vacuum make more power?
Better ring sealing?
Oil staying away from crank journals?

Thanks


Ring seal probably, maybe a little bit from reduced windage. This engine has an 043 top ring with lateral gas ports so pan vacuum probably helps the ring seal and maybe reduces flutter. Can't say I know for sure but more vacuum does make more power.

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#2279524 - 03/31/17 10:59 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: HotRodDave]
justinp61 Online   content
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Registered: 10/01/03
Posts: 9086
Loc: W. Kentucky
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
I kind of like having a good port necked down a smidge at the opening so I can match it exactly to my heads, it makes the manifold a little more flexible as to what it will work with.


I'm with Dave on this one. I'd rather the ports on the intake be a little small so I can match them to my heads.

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#2279590 - 03/31/17 12:45 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
PETE@BESTMACHINE Offline


Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 389
Loc: SouthEast Michigan
A dyno sheet would back up your claims and keeps everyone honest. You take a picture of the screen with data on it after a pull with your smart phone IT guy and post it.


Attachments
565 dyno sheet.JPG


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#2279631 - 03/31/17 01:39 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Loc: Oregon
The data is on the screen in the video. Watch the video and you can see the numbers.

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#2279648 - 03/31/17 02:09 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
als499 Offline
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Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Zumbrota,MN
Andy, are you running it with the 270cc heads today? Thanks!
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#2279649 - 03/31/17 02:11 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 974
Loc: 1940 North Victory Boulevard ...
Originally Posted By AndyF
The data is on the screen in the video. Watch the video and you can see the numbers.


up


Attachments
AF 470.jpg



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#2279703 - 03/31/17 03:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: als499]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By als499
Andy, are you running it with the 270cc heads today? Thanks!


Yep, we changed over to the 270 heads on the dyno and made some pulls. Getting close to 760 hp even with the as cast Indy intake. This engine would probably make 775 or 780 hp if I had a really good intake manifold.

The oil filter is super clean after every run so that is good news. The block must not be moving around too much even though we are getting up there in power. There doesn't appear to be any metal chips at all in the filters so we just keep making pulls.

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#2279714 - 03/31/17 03:48 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
krautrock Offline
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Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 1416
Loc: central texas
so you're up about 45-50 hp?

did the Torque peak go up?

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#2279767 - 03/31/17 05:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
From the old thread:

Quote:
High level summary is that it makes 700 hp with a Trick Flow intake and a QF carb. With the Wilson intake and a Dominator it makes about 720 hp.


That was 10.5cr, wet sump, TF 240 heads.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2279953 - 03/31/17 08:58 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Would love to see that exact set up repeated Dwayne , but with the 270 heads and Trick Flow Intake, and then other intakes.

I do think it helpful Andy did a baseline set of pulls with the 250 heads since he changed from wet to dry dump.

Andy- Did you stay with the 10.5 compression of did you bump it up?
I seem to remember a post about bumping compression a bit- but may be mistaken.

Also wondering what manifold vacuum and CFM flow differences are noted as due to head change.

I have friends here very close to pulling the trigger on the 270 heads , however, as Dwayne mentioned in one of the threads- the 270 heads might not be the value the 240's are.
Thus- All my questions.

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#2279980 - 03/31/17 09:31 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote:
I have friends here very close to pulling the trigger on the 270 heads , however, as Dwayne mentioned in one of the threads- the 270 heads might not be the value the 240's are.


Definitely not what I said, or implied.

What I did say was that I didn't feel the 270's were going to have as much of an impact on the MW head market as the 240's have had on the std port market.

They are still a very good value.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280005 - 03/31/17 10:00 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Oops- my mistake Dwayne- please forgive.
Value was certainly not mentioned or implied and a poor choice on my part.

The conversations here revolve around how much more they flow than the 240 and, intake selections.

Thus- I misspoke ,
Embarrassing to say the least.

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#2280025 - 03/31/17 10:25 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
The compression ratio ended up higher in this short block than in the first engine due to a little gotcha. I had ordered new pistons for my first block and assumed they would work in the second block but it turned out that the 2nd block had been surfaced a fair amount previously. So we had to shave the pistons down a little bit and some of the dish volume went away.

I haven't downloaded all of the data yet from the 270 tests. No doubt we picked up some power but not a ton. The interesting thing is that the 270 heads seem to work better in terms of BSFC and VE. Could be due to the surface finish in the 270 heads since it is much smoother than the big step over that TF uses in the 240 head.

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#2280163 - 04/01/17 07:10 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Blusmbl Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7328
Loc: Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted By AndyF
Ring seal probably, maybe a little bit from reduced windage. This engine has an 043 top ring with lateral gas ports so pan vacuum probably helps the ring seal and maybe reduces flutter. Can't say I know for sure but more vacuum does make more power.


Pumping loss work should be lower with a vacuum in the crankcase, that is likely where the power is coming from. It is probably making about the same indicated power, but the brake horsepower is up from the lower pumping losses.
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#2280390 - 04/01/17 01:23 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I can't imagine what would be holding someone back from ordering either the TF 240 or 270 heads if they were building a combo where this is the type of head that will get the job done for them.

They aren't going to be substitute for a B1 head, or some of the bigger Indy heads, and probably aren't the best choice for a high cr big cube bracket motor where someone is looking to make 800hp+.

But if you were looking at "comparable" heads, and had these on your list of possibilities............ I can't see any reason not to pull the trigger.

Like the 240's, these heads are going to be very hard to beat from a power vs cost vs build quality standpoint.

There are other heads that will make just as much power(or more), especially if the motor is bigger and the combo is "racier", but it's going to cost more to get into them.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280406 - 04/01/17 01:58 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Closest comparable head is probably the Indy EZ-1 or perhaps the EZ-295 since it is CNC ported. I think the 295 head costs a little more and comes with 0.600 springs and steel retainers. The 270 head comes with 0.700 roller springs and Ti retainers. One of the Indy dealers can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd say the consensus is that TF build quality is better than Indy build quality but once again engine builders who have experience with both can weigh in on that.

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#2280426 - 04/01/17 02:45 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
The TF 270 heads with roller springs and Ti retainers are $2600/pr.

I've had 4 sets of the 240 heads in the shop so far, and the overall fit and finish was very consistent.
They all had the guide clearance quite a bit tighter than what I prefer, and the seals are on super tight, so you can't get them off(or at least I don't seem to be able to) without ruining them.
So, IMO, the "prep" for the TF heads is to disassemble, hone guides, clean everything, verify spring pressures and installed heights, reassemble with new seals.
The roller springs that come on the TF heads(TFS-16318) are almost $340...... So you're getting pretty good parts there.

If you can buy the EZ295 for the same price as the TF 270, it comes with flat tappet cam single springs, steel retainers, 7 deg stamped locks, and umbrella seals.
If you buy the upgrades from Indy to get the heads so they are "similarly equipped"(k-950 springs, Ti retainers, 10deg locks, viton seals)to the TF 270's, it's going to add about $500 to the cost.
Then, if you really want them to perform like they should, the valve seats should be recut, valves back cut, and the bowls and chambers blended to the seats.
Then, again you have cleaning, checking spring pressures, installed heights, assembly, etc......... All of which adds up to another $500.
If you wanted spring cups, it adds another $100, and you'll also need the oil line kit for $55.

While i feel those two heads are pretty comparable, the place where the TF head really starts to look attractive is....... The price.

_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280440 - 04/01/17 03:14 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Agree and, again sorry for improper usage of terms in relation to your statements.
Lots of Indy max wedge down here and guys waiting to see if the 270 heads will make similar hp , similar curves in the 650- 720 hp range.

My statement to them has been similar to yours.
The 240 heads will meet most of those needs, 270 surely better.
Comparing " apples to apples " - the Trick flows seem the best bang for the buck in this range,
As yet, don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference.

If that made any sense.

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#2280441 - 04/01/17 03:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
dwayne welder Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 182
Loc: warren, mich.
Trick Flow uses Pac Racing Springs and parts.

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#2280552 - 04/01/17 07:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote:
.......don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference.


I think common sense should be the driving decision maker here.
Engine builds geared more towards the milder street applications, or moderate compression bracket builds using stock stroke cranks might tend to favor the 240's, while the higher hp "rowdier" combos, especially those with stroker cranks, should be able to exploit the added runner size and flow of the 270's.

In other words, if you're looking for a 550-600hp 446, the 240's make more sense.
If you're looking at doing something like a 700-750hp 505 or 520, then the 270's will get you there easier.

For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear, and which one you select might come down to what other components/criteria are being considered(for example, does it all need to fit under a flat hood?).
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280810 - 04/02/17 10:01 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I thought I'd add a couple of other thoughts.......

I like doing my own heads, but obviously most people don't have the capabilities/equipment to do that.

So as nice as the TF heads are, if I were building something for myself where the TF heads would be a suitable option, I'd use the Indy EZ heads instead.
I can buy the EZ's for quite a bit less than the TF heads, and then do the prep and porting myself.


Attachments
image.jpg


_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281046 - 04/02/17 04:36 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
viperblue72 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 1780
Loc: junction city oregon
So this is a direct comparison of the 240 vs 270 other than intakes being a Wilson ported vs a ootb 400-3? And
720hp for the 240s
754 for the 270s. ???
Did I get this right without reading back through 5 pages again and watching videos trying to screenshot the horsepower peaks.

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#2281065 - 04/02/17 05:02 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: viperblue72]
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 974
Loc: 1940 North Victory Boulevard ...
Originally Posted By viperblue72
So this is a direct comparison of the 240 vs 270 other than intakes being a Wilson ported vs a ootb 400-3? And
720hp for the 240s
754 for the 270s. ???
Did I get this right without reading back through 5 pages again and watching videos trying to screenshot the horsepower peaks.



A summary with compression ratios and cam specs would be nice.

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#2281066 - 04/02/17 05:03 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
I'm going to call it 725 hp with the 240 heads and 750 hp with the 270 heads on this engine on this day.

The 240 head combo is fairly well maxed out at this point but I've just started working with the 270 heads so it isn't really a fair comparison. I can probably find another 25 to 50 hp with the 270 heads but it will take a while.

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#2281125 - 04/02/17 07:02 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
viperblue72 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 1780
Loc: junction city oregon
Thank you for sharing. I am trying to use this thread to decide which trick flow head to purchase. With my 512 build, 11.5 compression and a .650 lift camshaft or less, the 240 could possibly be the best bang for the buck.
Although the 270 may be slightly better hp wise, it may not be worth the extra $.

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#2281136 - 04/02/17 07:23 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Viperblue- we are building a similar engine here now.
Should be at dyno week after next if things go well.
Be happy to share those build specs and results with you if it's helpful.
This is a 512/ 240/ 631lift / M1 build.
Duration in 250 range- street/ strip build- slightly less compression than your planing 10:75 range here.
RB block.

Sorry for rabbit trailing the thread Andy.

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#2281142 - 04/02/17 07:28 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is).
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281150 - 04/02/17 07:41 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 974
Loc: 1940 North Victory Boulevard ...
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is).


And the flip-side would be: what engine would be BETTER with the smaller heads. It's probably not a stroked motor.
twocents

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#2281163 - 04/02/17 07:56 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
TonyS451 Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3900
Loc: Chicago, IL
Awesome of you to do this, Andy. What cam and compression are you running? This is the type of data that can save people a lot of time (and money) when it comes to putting together combinations and picking parts suitable to their budget and needs. Thanks for sharing, and hopefully TF is thanking you too...
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#2281203 - 04/02/17 08:42 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Well, Dwayne , got me wondering now if I should have gotten the 270 heads.
Hmm.
This will see more street time than strip so, should be fine.
All advice I found indicated the 240 heads were a good choice, hit our numbers , keep Intake velocity up etc.

Will know after we hit dyno .

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#2281324 - 04/03/17 12:03 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: @#$%&*!]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted By @#$%&*!
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is).


And the flip-side would be: what engine would be BETTER with the smaller heads. It's probably not a stroked motor.
twocents


Well, I have seen many stroker builds on this site where the 240's would make more sense than the 270's.
In order to really exploit the added potential of the 270 heads, you're going to want to run a fairly substantial cam and have enough intake manifold to keep up......... then you need more gear and more stall to match.
That's just not what everyone is building. In fact, I'd say that might be 1/2 of what the people who call me are looking for. The other 1/2 could usually have their needs satisfied with stage 1 RPM heads....... only now with the 240's in the mix, they are an option that offers "more bang for the buck"........ but in many cases, even those would be a bit of overkill.

It's no different than what the BBC guys have had for years. The largest runner volume head offered by the various suppliers isn't the best choice for every application.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281325 - 04/03/17 12:05 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted By RustyM
Well, Dwayne , got me wondering now if I should have gotten the 270 heads.
Hmm.
This will see more street time than strip so, should be fine.
All advice I found indicated the 240 heads were a good choice, hit our numbers , keep Intake velocity up etc.

Will know after we hit dyno .


For the numbers you said were the target, the 240's will easily get you there.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281443 - 04/03/17 09:49 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Yep.
So many ways to get there and, seeing hp that can still be made- 10 here, 25 there- it's just too easy to break build discipline and end up with a product unlike ones stated goals.
The math ( if I have done it correctly ) say I will hit my numbers and engine meet stated needs.
Ahh, but the lure of more!
Grin

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#2281445 - 04/03/17 09:54 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Clanton Offline
master

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 3188
Loc: northern,Ohio,USA
What kind of avg air speed in the port would a person look for planning a build?
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#2281481 - 04/03/17 10:44 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I'm going to speculate a little further here.....

Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.

I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference.
The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.

The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.

My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281517 - 04/03/17 11:42 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Logical

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#2281828 - 04/03/17 06:52 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
dartman366 Offline


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 12891
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio
So far from what I have read I believe the 240"s that I put on my low deck 512 bracket motor will do just fine for what I want and there is potential there to improve later down the road, I am not out to scorch the earth, just run consistant mid to upper 9's and not have to wring the crap out of it to get there. up
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#2282268 - 04/04/17 01:16 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 10046
Loc: Marion, South Carolina [><]
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I'm going to speculate a little further here.....

Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.

I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference.
The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.

The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.

My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system.

This is exactly why this test is misleading...b/c of the high dollar, very good flowing intake manifold used on the smaller heads. The bigger heads got saddled w/ a poor flowing intake (by comparison) and the numbers suffered. Not a true A to B test so we're left making assumptions.
_________________________
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#2282277 - 04/04/17 01:37 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
4406forPOWER Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 1326
Loc: Nebraska
Since TF is not offering a max wedge port intake. I would love to see a comparison between the 2 heads using the Trick Flow intake. Also is there any left in the 240 head with some cleaning up? Or is that just a waste of time?


Edited by 4406forPOWER (04/04/17 01:39 PM)

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#2282390 - 04/04/17 04:44 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: an8sec70cuda]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I'm going to speculate a little further here.....

Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.

I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference.
The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.

The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.

My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system.

This is exactly why this test is misleading...b/c of the high dollar, very good flowing intake manifold used on the smaller heads. The bigger heads got saddled w/ a poor flowing intake (by comparison) and the numbers suffered. Not a true A to B test so we're left making assumptions.


The test wasn't misleading for me. I learned what I wanted to know and found the test to be very worthwhile. I shared the information that I learned so other people could also learn the same thing without having to invest their own money.

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#2282422 - 04/04/17 06:15 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
OUTLAWD Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1810
Loc: Plymouth, MI
Thanks for all the info during all the TF testing Andy!


Originally Posted By fast68plymouth


For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear.


This is where I am stuck...

Then is it worth it to get the TF intake if I already have a 4150 M1, and it will just snow-ball from there...
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#2282496 - 04/04/17 08:09 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I wouldn't build a motor, or base any significant upgrades I had planned around a $250 intake manifold.

Decide where you want to end up after the upgrades, then the decision should get easier......and if you can put that m1 into use as part of the upgrade, great.

If you're planning on going towards the upper end of the 600-700 range, the 270's are the easier path...... provided the intake manifold associated with using those heads fits in with the rest of your plans.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2282609 - 04/04/17 10:58 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Andy: Will there be other pulls with the 279 heads on the 470?
Fwiw- hoping that's the case.

Thanks

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#2282619 - 04/04/17 11:12 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
One rule usually holds true when dyno testing...... the person paying the bill gets to test what they want.
The other thing is, there's never enough time to test everything you want.

I think if you went back to my original thread about the TF 240 heads, there are some tests Andy did with this same cam and the unmodified manifolds.

The 270 heads with the ootb 400-3 made 750-ish.
Take off say....... 15-20(??) for the dry sump....... call it 730-ish.

Edit: I went back and read through some of that first thread....... looks like with the ootb m1 and the 4500 carb the other motor made 685hp with this cam.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2282721 - 04/05/17 08:48 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
BradH Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13228
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
One rule usually holds true when dyno testing... there's never enough time to test everything you want.

Indeed.

I'm keeping that in mind for next time. work
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#2282727 - 04/05/17 09:07 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 497
Loc: Idaho
Thanks Andy. But, next time, schedule a 14 day dyno test. We'll tell you what to run and how to do it and what to print out for us. Then we can get all our desired information on your dollar.


Edited by LaRoy Engines (04/05/17 09:09 AM)

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#2282748 - 04/05/17 09:38 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
PETE@BESTMACHINE Offline


Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 389
Loc: SouthEast Michigan
The dyno test was very misleading, who would use a very modified intake on the smaller heads and use a unmodified intake on the bigger heads, with no dyno sheet to see were they make HP and TQ. How much crankcase vac ? Peak RPM etc. fast68plymouth is right on with is post. Its great to test things, but more info would be nice. Did you move the cam ?
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#2282775 - 04/05/17 10:43 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Indy EZ heads have been out for quite a while now.
One test I've always wanted to do was a comparison between the std port head and the MW head...... Using the same set of heads.

Baseline runs with the heads at std port size and a couple of intakes, then pull the heads, open to MW size, test with a couple of MW sized intakes.

As much as I'd like to do that test....... I never seem to have the time to build a motor for the test, then actually do the test.

So, I'd say Andy's testing at the very least gives people an idea of what kind of numbers are possible from the new TF heads.
It's unlikely they're going to build the exact same motor as he did anyway, so the results shouldn't be expected to be exactly the same....... But there's enough info so you(an experienced engine builder) should be able to have a pretty good idea of where you'll end up.

I could add testing the 240 vs 270 heads to my long list of things I'd love to try on the dyno........... But my advice is to not hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2282780 - 04/05/17 10:56 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 497
Loc: Idaho
I own a dyno and I've posted some of my dyno tests online. All the time I get, "You should have tested it this way......."

It cost money to run that dyno so I tell 'um, "Send money and I will test it that way!"

NEVER had a taker on that offer. They are willing to take free information and too damn cheap to pay for their wants. I test things my way for my desired information.

For free....you get what I offer and that is getting to be less and less.

Stick to your guns Andy, fast68plymouth is able to extrapolate information from your results. Let some of the others start using their brains like he does.


Edited by LaRoy Engines (04/05/17 10:58 AM)

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#2282801 - 04/05/17 11:24 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
One rule usually holds true when dyno testing...... the person paying the bill gets to test what they want.
The other thing is, there's never enough time to test everything you want.

I think if you went back to my original thread about the TF 240 heads, there are some tests Andy did with this same cam and the unmodified manifolds.

The 270 heads with the ootb 400-3 made 750-ish.
Take off say....... 15-20(??) for the dry sump....... call it 730-ish.

Edit: I went back and read through some of that first thread....... looks like with the ootb m1 and the 4500 carb the other motor made 685hp with this cam.


Correct. Some people are forgetting that I've already run 80+ dyno pulls on the 240 heads and have published all of that information. The 240 combo is now a very well developed platform so comparing the very best 240 pull to the first set of 270 pulls isn't going to give you the full picture.

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#2282805 - 04/05/17 11:31 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
4406forPOWER Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 1326
Loc: Nebraska
Thanks Andy for the info and dyno runs. Just curious on the 240 head motor. How far off on HP was the deep port TF intake vs the M1 manifolds? Trying to decide which intake to go with on a 240 head 470 build. tHANKS

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#2282880 - 04/05/17 01:28 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
gregsdart Offline
master

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 8060
Loc: Frostbitefalls (Rocky&Bullwink...
First off, I would like to offer my thanks for the posts Andy, always something to learn! It is easy for some of us key board dyno enthusiasts to say " why not do it this way", forgeting the time, money, and earning a living are all part of the equation, not to mention the experiance you have from past builds leads to tests you want to do may be tougher to relate to because of that. Thanks again.


Edited by gregsdart (04/05/17 01:31 PM)
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#2282889 - 04/05/17 01:48 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
viperblue72 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 1780
Loc: junction city oregon
I agree that without Andys test here, we would have absolutely nothing to go off of. So thank you Andy.
And fast68plymouth is right on his assumptions. Andy did some testing with other intakes and it's safe to say that the 270 heads with an ootb Intake are worth about 50hp in a similar application. Maybe more with a more aggressive build. And likely less with a more mild build.

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#2282919 - 04/05/17 02:35 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: 4406forPOWER]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By 4406forPOWER
Thanks Andy for the info and dyno runs. Just curious on the 240 head motor. How far off on HP was the deep port TF intake vs the M1 manifolds? Trying to decide which intake to go with on a 240 head 470 build. tHANKS


There is a bunch of intake testing info in the previous Trick Flow thread or you can take a look at the Car Craft article where I summarized a bunch of the testing: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/test-intake-manifolds-carburetors-440-stroker-search-ultimate-power/

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#2282921 - 04/05/17 02:43 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By RustyM
Andy: Will there be other pulls with the 279 heads on the 470?
Fwiw- hoping that's the case.

Thanks


As long as I have money and time I'll keep testing. I'm in the process f sending the Indy intake to Wilson for porting. Not sure if I'll also convert it to EFI at the same time or wait for a third round of testing to go EFI.

I might send the heads to Jesel for rocker arms. They haven't seen a set of 270 heads yet so I might be the guinea pig for them. If that deal works out then I'll send the heads to Dwayne also since both places are on the East Coast. If the deal with Jesel doesn't work out then I'll just keep running the T&D rockers.

In any case it will probably be a couple of months before I'm back on the dyno with this engine and these heads. My next project is to get the 514 back on the dyno with EFI and Q16.

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#2282952 - 04/05/17 03:59 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Thanks Andy:

Fwiw - You have helped me greatly , not only with the 470/trick flow data, but advice, your books and info all over the Mopar internet.

We bought the Trick Flow heads based on info found here at Moparts, Andy, Dwayne and others builders here working with the heads.
Been out of this game for over 30 years and have a build going that i'm pretty sure will make projected numbers because of those on these boards.

Does all of Andy's testing apply to my build?
Nope, not at all- but the math does.
As someone mentioned- extrapolating info, some here, some there- applying the math etc.
Then talking with others, being willing to listen, take advice from others who know how to apply the data- its all a blessing, huge education that- honestly, someone else paid for- Goes to Leroy Engines point.

So- this old man thanks all of you and will continue watching, reading and trying to soak up these classes someone else worked and paid for.

Personally will try to buy products and services where I can from those here that share in order to help everyone.

Thanks again,

Rusty

P.S. Now Andy, about that Trick flow intake on the 270 heads,,,, hahahahahahaha



Edited by RustyM (04/05/17 04:00 PM)

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#2282955 - 04/05/17 04:03 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
OUTLAWD Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1810
Loc: Plymouth, MI
I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes

Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?
_________________________
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71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
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#2282989 - 04/05/17 05:38 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: OUTLAWD]
BradH Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13228
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes

Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?

C.I.?
C.R.?
Application?
Planning to switch to a Dominator-type carb?

All I can say at this point is a port-matched (if you can even get it that big) standard-port intake would be my last choice.
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#2282996 - 04/05/17 05:52 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: OUTLAWD]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes

Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?


There are lots of choices for RB intakes with MW ports. For a race engine I'd probably start with the Super Victor but the Mopar 337 is also a very good intake. People have had good luck with the 440-2 over the years. Then there are the multi-carb intakes such as the cross ram, Indy X ram and Mod Man. There is even the Indy DP which is available with MW ports. I wouldn't run the dual plane on a race engine but it works nice on a street engine.

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#2283817 - 04/07/17 08:11 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: BradH]
OUTLAWD Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1810
Loc: Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted By BradH

C.I.=493
C.R.=10.5:1
Application: Street/strip, 3700lb w/ driver, 9.5" ~4400 converter


Probably stay 4150, then go proper MPI down the road at some point.
Hood clearance isn't too much an issue, I should be able to fit an adapter and N2O plate under the scoop


Attachments
019-2016-hot-rod-drag-week-launches.jpg


_________________________
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - FITech test rig...

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#2283915 - 04/07/17 11:02 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
RB, true MW sized manifold, 4150 carb pad....... Pretty much narrows it down to a 440-2 or 440-2D.

For MPI use, I would think the 440-2 would be the preferred choice.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2283938 - 04/07/17 11:48 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Clanton Offline
master

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 3188
Loc: northern,Ohio,USA
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes

Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?


There are lots of choices for RB intakes with MW ports. For a race engine I'd probably start with the Super Victor but the Mopar 337 is also a very good intake. People have had good luck with the 440-2 over the years. Then there are the multi-carb intakes such as the cross ram, Indy X ram and Mod Man. There is even the Indy DP which is available with MW ports. I wouldn't run the dual plane on a race engine but it works nice on a street engine.
I was looking for an opinion on the Modman intake if you care to get into more detail.


Edited by Clanton (04/07/17 11:49 AM)
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#2283963 - 04/07/17 12:40 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Clanton]
Cab_Burge Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 29383
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Not to hijack but I have dyno tested two different sets of heads that flowed 30 CFM different with every thing else the same, compression, camshaft, intake manifold carb, but not the same rocker arms due to testing a set of Indy SR M.W. that flowed 340 CFM @.700 lift and then a set of CNC ported 440-1 that flowed 370 @ .700 lift. I had Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio rockers on both sets of heads, I tested both sets of heads on two different short blocks and the bigger heads made 48 HP more on the pump gas 518 C.I. low deck stroker(727 HP with the SR and 775 HP with the 440-1) and they made 70 HP more(775 with the SR and 845 with the 440-1) on the high compression 526 C.I. RB motor.
IHTHs
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#2372777 - 09/18/17 01:44 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By RustyM
Andy: Will there be other pulls with the 279 heads on the 470?
Fwiw- hoping that's the case.

Thanks


As long as I have money and time I'll keep testing. I'm in the process f sending the Indy intake to Wilson for porting. Not sure if I'll also convert it to EFI at the same time or wait for a third round of testing to go EFI.

I might send the heads to Jesel for rocker arms. They haven't seen a set of 270 heads yet so I might be the guinea pig for them. If that deal works out then I'll send the heads to Dwayne also since both places are on the East Coast. If the deal with Jesel doesn't work out then I'll just keep running the T&D rockers.

In any case it will probably be a couple of months before I'm back on the dyno with this engine and these heads. My next project is to get the 514 back on the dyno with EFI and Q16.



Well it ended up being 5 months not a couple but I am ready to take this 470 with the 270 heads back to the dyno again. I pulled off the dry sump system and will go with a wet sump pan and an external belt drive pump. I'll be interested to see how that works.

The more interesting test for me will be the Wilson M1 vs. the Wilson Indy intake. The Wilson ported Indy intake has 18% more internal volume. It is taller and has the full MW runners. The Wilson M1 made a little better power than the unported Indy intake last time I ran them but I figure the Wilson porting on the Indy intake should now make it the top of the pile.


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#2372779 - 09/18/17 01:49 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Here is a side by side shot. I'll test these two intakes and then I'm going to run the engine with and without a vacuum pump. I think that is all I'm going to test. Haven't figured out what else to do with this engine. Might sell it or maybe convert it to EFI. The Wilson Indy intake is just begging to be drilled for EFI so I could do that I suppose.


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#2373419 - 09/19/17 03:21 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
SILVER67 Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 708
Loc: Liverpool, NY
So would the 270's be a touch on the small side for a bracket/street 540+ cube build?
Looks like some good power on an under 500 engine!
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Competition Wedge Engines Brewerton, NY

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#2373427 - 09/19/17 03:26 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
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Loc: Oregon
All depends on how much power you want to make and how high you are going to run the engine. The 270 heads with a matching MW intake would be a pretty good street combo with a 540 inch shortblock. Might run out of steam at 6500 rpm or so at the track. But, unless you used high dollar parts you probably don't want to spin a 540 much past 6500 rpm anyway. Especially if it is a stock block. You didn't really provide enough info to answer the question so I'll say it just depends.

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#2373428 - 09/19/17 03:26 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: SILVER67]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted By SILVER67
So would the 270's be a touch on the small side for a bracket/street 540+ cube build?


No worse than RPM's on a 505.
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#2373511 - 09/19/17 05:54 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Too bad you don't know someone near you with a stock(or stock-ish) 400-3 you could use for a quick back to back test.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2373530 - 09/19/17 06:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
SILVER67 Offline
super stock

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 708
Loc: Liverpool, NY
Oh yea
Aftermarket aluminum block
Pump gas (93)
Some street here and there
Weekly bracket
3,500+ car
Auto trans

Or at that cube is the -1 more wise ?
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#2373531 - 09/19/17 06:23 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Too bad you don't know someone near you with a stock(or stock-ish) 400-3 you could use for a quick back to back test.


I already ran the 400-3 in stock form and it wasn't anything great. I have the Wilson M1 to use as the control sample since I also ran it on the last dyno test. I don't think I need two control samples.

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#2373538 - 09/19/17 06:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10228
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
But...... It was a dry sump with that test.
Not the type of true "back to back" I like to see.

Since the intakes are so easy to swap on these motors, I figured if there was one available.....

But, I'm not paying the bill....... So I get it.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2373568 - 09/19/17 07:41 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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I think we're saying the same thing. I had the Wilson M1 on the engine when it was dry sump and now it is wet sump with the Wilson M1. Everything else is the same. Cam, heads, ignition, carb, etc. The only change is dry sump to wet sump and the weather.

So that test with the M1 will tell me if the dyno numbers are repeating from the last test. Once I do that baseline then I swap on the Wilson Indy intake and see what the difference is.

Since I have the baseline back to my last test I'll also be able to compare the Wilson Indy to the OOTB Indy intake. And I'll be able to compare dry sump to wet sump as well as vacuum pump to no pump.

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#2374181 - 09/20/17 08:36 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
I built a new bracket so I could hang the vacuum pump chamber off the back of the cylinder head. I'm interested to see how this chamber works. It appears to be a dual chamber air/oil separator kind of setup. I like it since it provides a place for the exhaust to dump into as well as a place to pull the intake from.


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#2374183 - 09/20/17 08:41 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Loc: Oregon
I also designed up a little baffle for the inside of the valve cover. I think this will work, guess we'll find out shortly.


Attachments
DSC_1244 (Large).JPG

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#2374185 - 09/20/17 08:44 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
rickraw Offline
top fuel

Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1904
Loc: Ambridge, Pa.
That's professional.

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#2374213 - 09/20/17 09:26 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
davenc Offline
mopar

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 522
Loc: NC, USA
I can't tell how big those channels are, but in reviewing the MEWagner PVC valve instructions the point about having a good sized opening on the baffle to reduce air velocity to reduce ability to carry oil made a lot of sense to me. I added some 1/4" standoffs to my existing baffle.

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#2374262 - 09/20/17 10:28 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Scott440 Offline
mopar

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 429
Loc: New Mexico
AndyF, First, thank you for sharing this amazing R&D.

For those of us with max wedge ports and 1.5 rockers, it's still impossible to know how much we'd gain with 1.65 rockers, because your 1.5 rockers were only tested with standard ports right?

I think this was a question you were curious about, and some of us would have wanted to know too.

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#2374289 - 09/20/17 10:50 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: davenc]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By davenc
I can't tell how big those channels are, but in reviewing the MEWagner PVC valve instructions the point about having a good sized opening on the baffle to reduce air velocity to reduce ability to carry oil made a lot of sense to me. I added some 1/4" standoffs to my existing baffle.


The channels in the vent have roughly the same cross section area as the #12 line so it should be fine.

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#2374293 - 09/20/17 10:54 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Scott440]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Scott440
AndyF, First, thank you for sharing this amazing R&D.

For those of us with max wedge ports and 1.5 rockers, it's still impossible to know how much we'd gain with 1.65 rockers, because your 1.5 rockers were only tested with standard ports right?

I think this was a question you were curious about, and some of us would have wanted to know too.


Yeah I think I'm done with rocker arm testing! Takes a lot of time and money and the results aren't very predictable. I sold off most of my rocker arm sets and moved on. I kept the T&D rockers for this engine since they are super high quality. They didn't make more power than some of the less expensive rockers that I tested but I think they will last longer.

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#2374809 - 09/21/17 09:38 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
srunge55 Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 429
Loc: St Louis, MO, USA
Andy where these the T&D you had made for the Trick Flow heads? If so, do you have a T&D part number to share?

Thanks,

Steve

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#2374830 - 09/21/17 10:07 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
I don't know if T&D created a part number for the Trick Flow rockers or not. My invoice says part number 8200 Special 1.480 long rocker. So you can call them and see what they say. Here is a picture of the T&D rockers if you need it for reference.


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Edited by AndyF (09/21/17 10:10 PM)

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#2374879 - 09/22/17 12:55 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
srunge55 Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 429
Loc: St Louis, MO, USA
thanks Andy

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#2374992 - 09/22/17 10:50 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
I will say that working with T&D wasn't smooth sailing. I sent them a cylinder head so they could double check the fit of the new rocker arms. They didn't bother to bolt the rockers on my head. They sent the head back with the rocker arms and nothing fit. So then it all got shipped back and they redid the setup and then shipped it all back to me again. Seemed like they had some turnover in the shop and right hand didn't talk to left hand and stuff like that.

So it wasn't smooth sailing but now that I have the rockers and everything works I'm pretty happy with them. Just saying that if you want T&D to build you something custom don't assume you'll get the project finished on any sort of tight schedule.

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#2374998 - 09/22/17 11:00 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
BradH Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13228
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By AndyF
I don't know if T&D created a part number for the Trick Flow rockers or not. My invoice says part number 8200 Special 1.480 long rocker. So you can call them and see what they say. Here is a picture of the T&D rockers if you need it for reference.

I'm pretty sure the standard fulcrum length for T&D's basic BBM rockers is 1.520; looks like they shortened it up a tad for the Trick Flow heads.
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#2375028 - 09/22/17 12:00 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: BradH]
srunge55 Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 429
Loc: St Louis, MO, USA
I called T&D and the part number for TF heads is 8260 and you can request the rocker ratio you want.

Something I wonder about is that TF recommends using the HS rockers designed for the Edelbrock RPM head. The T&D rocker for the RPM head is 1.520 long but for the TF head they spec'd 1.480. I couldn't find the spec for the HS rocker but it seems T&D calculated a shorter length then TF did. Maybe TF was just trying to use the closest existing part available. I'm hoping T&D's measurements are more accurate.

Andy, I know you tested both of these parts; did one fit better than the other? I did read your rocker arm article but I don't recall if your commented on this.

Thanks,

Steve

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#2375033 - 09/22/17 12:25 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
You would have to call HS to see what the length of their TF rocker arm is. I know it is shorter than the normal rocker arm. (which I always thought was too long). I do not know if it is also 1.480 but I bet it is close. I think the HS rocker arm for Edelbrock and TF heads if 0.050 shorter than the standard Mopar rocker arm but my memory could be playing tricks with me.

I think I posted pictures of all of the rocker arms mounted up on a TF head back in one of the original TF threads. From what I recall, the HS, Mancini, Hughes and T&D rocker arms all had excellent geometry on the TF head. But, this is after getting custom T&D rockers made and using the short HS rockers. I was pretty careful to order the correct stuff for the TF heads and I ended up with parts that fit correctly.

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#2375119 - 09/22/17 03:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
340Cuda Offline
pro stock

Registered: 04/04/03
Posts: 1575
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
If you have questions send and e-mail to Harlan Sharp. In my experience they answer quickly.

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#2377482 - 09/26/17 10:20 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Scott440 Offline
mopar

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 429
Loc: New Mexico
Was this the final cam used?

Comp Cams 264/268 solid roller with HXL and HXX lobes

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#2377528 - 09/27/17 12:15 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Loc: Oregon
Yes, the 470 with the 270 heads has that Comp grind in it. The other 470 with the 240 heads has the Ultradyne roller in it.

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#2377585 - 09/27/17 08:22 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2501
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Andy, Could you post the port egt numbers so I can see how well the distribution is in this Wilson modified INDY intake? Do you have port egt's for the Wilson modified M1? If so would you post those as well. While it not likely common knowledge, probably because no one takes the time to do it, if you really work at equalizing distribution it did seem to be worth about 15 HP on every engine we ever tested....I'm talking within 7*F port to port.

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#2378925 - 09/29/17 02:02 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
PorkyPig Offline
mopar

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 538
Loc: home in bed
Originally Posted By AndyF
Yes, the 470 with the 270 heads has that Comp grind in it. The other 470 with the 240 heads has the Ultradyne roller in it.

Are they both going back on the dyno?

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#2378940 - 09/29/17 02:43 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
No, the 470-240 combo is in my Duster now and has been converted to EFI. I don't think I need to put it back on the dyno since I know what it does.

The 470-270 combo will go back to the dyno to test the oil pan, vacuum pump and the Wilson Indy intake. Once I finish up that work I'll probably put that engine up for sale since I don't have any plans for it.

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#2379031 - 09/29/17 06:10 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
67mprfan Offline
super stock

Registered: 05/01/05
Posts: 782
Loc: ohio
Originally Posted By AndyF
No, the 470-240 combo is in my Duster now and has been converted to EFI. I don't think I need to put it back on the dyno since I know what it does.

The 470-270 combo will go back to the dyno to test the oil pan, vacuum pump and the Wilson Indy intake. Once I finish up that work I'll probably put that engine up for sale since I don't have any plans for it.



Can hardly wait a got a 67 Belvedere that waiting for a BIG Block
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71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 131.65 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 106.67 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it

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#2381820 - 10/04/17 01:03 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Here is the external oil pump with the vacuum pump attached. The vacuum pump is driven off the back of the oil pump. I'm going to put it on the dyno tomorrow and we'll see what happens.


Attachments
DSC_1370 (Large).JPG



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#2381912 - 10/04/17 04:17 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Cab_Burge Offline
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 29383
Loc: Bend,OR USA
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


Edited by Cab_Burge (10/04/17 04:18 PM)
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#2381939 - 10/04/17 04:26 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Old School Offline
super stock

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 1109
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
How would that ever fit in a car.....
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#2382023 - 10/04/17 05:22 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Cab_Burge]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


#12 line from the top of the pump goes to a filter and then another #12 line from the filter goes into the block plate. The block plate is behind the pump in this picture.

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#2382024 - 10/04/17 05:24 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Old School]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Old School
How would that ever fit in a car.....


I guess guys figure it out. A lot of the serious NHRA guys run external oil pumps. I suppose anyone who knows how to put a dry sump system in a car can figure out how to put a belt drive oil pump in a car.

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#2382025 - 10/04/17 05:24 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Cab_Burge Offline
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 29383
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


#12 line from the top of the pump goes to a filter and then another #12 line from the filter goes into the block plate. The block plate is behind the pump in this picture.
up
Thanks for sharing that thumbs
_________________________
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

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#2382627 - 10/05/17 06:11 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
BradH Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13228
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By AndyF
... I'm going to put it on the dyno tomorrow and we'll see what happens.

So... did it get flogged on the dyno today? Oh, right, you're 3 hours behind me. wink
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Life's too short to waste time on dumb@ss internet pi$$in' contests...

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#2382714 - 10/05/17 08:34 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Loc: Oregon
Yep made two pulls before quitting time. 762 and 756 hp for the pulls. This is with the M1 intake and no vacuum pump. I'm expecting to pick up power with the vacuum pump and the larger Indy intake. Should get a bunch of runs tomorrow. Weather is perfect, should be correcting down in the morning. Air is dense.

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#2382805 - 10/05/17 11:47 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Cab_Burge]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


Here is a picture showing the line from the oil pump to the filter and then the line back to the block. Fairly simple setup but it looks complex because the hoses run back and forth.


Attachments
DSC_1420 (Large).JPG



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#2383178 - 10/06/17 08:30 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Ended up making 775 hp with the Wilson ported Indy intake. Not bad for a pump gas engine using OOTB cylinder heads.

The Indy intake was 15 hp better than the Mopar M1 intake (both are fully ported by Wilson) which seems reasonable given the Indy is a MW port size while the M1 is standard port size.

The vacuum pump was worth 15 hp at 15 inches of vacuum. We didn't play with the vacuum level, just ran the pump right out of the box. There is an adjustable relief valve on the pump but I didn't touch it.

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#2383243 - 10/06/17 10:35 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
BradH Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
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Loc: Valhalla... eventually
The 775 HP # sure seems impressive for the combination. I'm still surprised there isn't a bigger difference between the standard-port M1 and the MW Indy. It makes me wonder how much improvement you should expect from port-matching a standard-port intake to standard-port heads, unless there is a horrible mismatch in the first place.
_________________________
Life's too short to waste time on dumb@ss internet pi$$in' contests...

Living by the motto “It’s just easier to keep buying parts than bother with actually putting them together” since 2010… or was it 2000?

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#2383285 - 10/07/17 12:59 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Yeah the Engine Master guys were having to heavily rework heads a few years back to make numbers like this and now we can hit the number with OOTB heads. Pretty cool that technology has moved forward that much in the last few years.

The 15 hp is peak to peak. The std port intake has a big hole in the torque curve which I assume is due to the mis-match. The Wilson ported Indy has a much better curve. I need to pull up the old data and look at it but this Indy intake right out of the box was a bit of a mess on the dyno. So the Wilson porting is what saved that intake.

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#2383321 - 10/07/17 08:29 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2501
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By csk
Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?

Thanks Charlie


Just depends on your point of view. The average bracket guy can bolt it on and run just fine but if you're trying to squeeze power out of an engine they leave a lot to be desired. The port size is small, the plenum is poorly cast, etc. If you ever have the chance to compare an Indy intake casting next to a Trick Flow casting you'll see that Indy doesn't really put much effort into their pattern making. The plenum on my 440-3 is really sloppy. The cloverleaf pattern is uneven and the casting quality is kind of poor. On a high horsepower engine that uneven pattern is going to mess up the fuel distribution between cylinders. If you compare a raw Indy casting to an intake that Wilson has prepped you'll see a world of difference.

Andy, can you post the port EGT's so we can see the difference in manifold fuel distribution?

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#2383452 - 10/07/17 01:47 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Loc: Oregon
I don't really have an easy way of posting EGT info. It isn't all that uniform, maybe 100 degrees different from hottest to coolest cylinder. Here is a shot of the results but EGT info isn't on this screen.


Attachments
DSC_1457 (Large).JPG



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#2383853 - 10/08/17 11:23 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2501
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
I understand, thank you anyway. So distribution with even the Wilson modified intake is not great? How does it compare to the M1 Wilson did? Maybe when you convert to efi you can dial a better balance into each cylinder?..would be worth a decent gain. What carb is on it now?

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#2383897 - 10/08/17 12:37 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
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Loc: Oregon
It has a modified 950 Dominator on it. The problem with using EGT for cylinder balance is that the thermocouples don't all read the same. Also, they are super sensitive to placement. So as far as I'm concerned, if they are within 100 degrees then they are equal. If you wiggle the thermocouple around you can change the temp quite a bit so that tells me that the thermocouple placement is changing the reading, not the mixture.

Here is a video of a dyno pull. You can watch the EGT readings if you want but I don't pay a huge amount of attention to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hol_SteaFPY

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#2387157 - 10/13/17 10:43 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
SCATPACK 1 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1331
Loc: TN
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Quote:
.......don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference.


I think common sense should be the driving decision maker here.
Engine builds geared more towards the milder street applications, or moderate compression bracket builds using stock stroke cranks might tend to favor the 240's, while the higher hp "rowdier" combos, especially those with stroker cranks, should be able to exploit the added runner size and flow of the 270's.

In other words, if you're looking for a 550-600hp 446, the 240's make more sense.
If you're looking at doing something like a 700-750hp 505 or 520, then the 270's will get you there easier.

For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear, and which one you select might come down to what other components/criteria are being considered(for example, does it all need to fit under a flat hood?).

How much more power from the 240 heads over a good set of 906 heads (no port work, just bowl area and good valve job)?
_________________________
Old Geezer Racing

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#2387278 - 10/14/17 09:44 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: SCATPACK 1]
BradH Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13228
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
I know of some pro tuners who don't even bother with EGTs any more and use wideband O2 sensors on all cylinders... they say EGTs aren't a good indicator of the tune in comparison.
_________________________
Life's too short to waste time on dumb@ss internet pi$$in' contests...

Living by the motto “It’s just easier to keep buying parts than bother with actually putting them together” since 2010… or was it 2000?

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#2387389 - 10/14/17 02:24 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
I'd like to have an eight O2 sensor setup but I don't think it fits into my budget at the moment.

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#2387395 - 10/14/17 02:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2501
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted By AndyF
Yep made two pulls before quitting time. 762 and 756 hp for the pulls. This is with the M1 intake and no vacuum pump. I'm expecting to pick up power with the vacuum pump and the larger Indy intake. Should get a bunch of runs tomorrow. Weather is perfect, should be correcting down in the morning. Air is dense.

Thanks again Andy for sharing. Just to clarify, you made about 760HP without a vacuum pump using the M1 and then 775HP without vacuum but using the Indy intake? So you would guess, around 790HP using a vacuum pump on this engine with the Indy intake? I looked at the video and it appears some (at least one) of the EGT's are damaged and not reading correctly. Take my experience for what it's worth, they are a cheap alternative for dialing in distribution when executed correctly. So I understand why you wouldn't use a feature like this to tune. Either way this is an impressive build. Good work.

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#2387397 - 10/14/17 02:36 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2501
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted By AndyF
I'd like to have an eight O2 sensor setup but I don't think it fits into my budget at the moment.

EXACTLY... 8 AFR sensors...$$$ I have no doubt the distribution was pretty decent, I just wanted to see what it actually was is all.

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#2391561 - Yesterday at 10:42 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23044
Loc: Oregon
Just finished up the analysis and building charts for the magazine article. Short summary is that on this engine a wet sump with vac pump made basically the same power as a dry sump setup. So pick your poison.

The Wilson porting work on the Indy intake picked up a nice chunk of power. The gain over the unported intake was more than 30 hp at the top of curve. The unported intake was run on the dry sump engine while the ported intake was on the wet sump + vac pump combo.

So if you have an as cast Indy 400-3 and you are making around 750 hp, sending that intake to Wilson for porting should be worth 25 or 30 hp.

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