Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278100
03/29/17 12:31 AM
03/29/17 12:31 AM
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Azzkikrcuda
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You should test the 270 heads with the same Wilson Modded M1 intake to see what it does even with the port mismatch. Since the intake Trick Flow recommends for these heads has a std. port window. I would be interested in the results of that test.
The only Carbs I care about are under the hood!
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Azzkikrcuda]
#2278106
03/29/17 12:39 AM
03/29/17 12:39 AM
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fast68plymouth
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You should test the 270 heads with the same Wilson Modded M1 intake to see what it does even with the port mismatch. Since the intake Trick Flow recommends for these heads has a std. port window. I would be interested in the results of that test. I agree....... That really seems like the logical progression in the testing....... Especially since TF says that's what they used for their evaluation of the 270 heads.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: sasquatch]
#2278122
03/29/17 01:12 AM
03/29/17 01:12 AM
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fast68plymouth
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Or a kind soul could let you borrow a nicely ported 400-3 intake..... Sure...... As the third one in the sequence.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2278126
03/29/17 01:16 AM
03/29/17 01:16 AM
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AndyF
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You should test the 270 heads with the same Wilson Modded M1 intake to see what it does even with the port mismatch. Since the intake Trick Flow recommends for these heads has a std. port window. I would be interested in the results of that test. I agree....... That really seems like the logical progression in the testing....... Especially since TF says that's what they used for their evaluation of the 270 heads. Regardless of what TF says, I do not think the Wilson intake will work with the 270 heads. It bolts on there okay but there is so little material around the ports that I don't think the gasket can properly seal. I looked at it and decided not to run it since I didn't want to suck in the gasket during a pull.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: sasquatch]
#2278128
03/29/17 01:19 AM
03/29/17 01:19 AM
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AndyF
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Or a kind soul could let you borrow a nicely ported 400-3 intake..... Might be an option down the road. I'm testing this week and it would cost a ton to overnight an intake across the country. Depending on how things go I might do another round of testing down the road after I send this 400-3 off for porting. Might be nice to have another ported 400-3 on hand at that point to do a comparison.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278134
03/29/17 01:27 AM
03/29/17 01:27 AM
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fast68plymouth
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Does the TF intake cover the ports of the 270 heads better than the m1? If so, you could test that one on both sets of heads.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278137
03/29/17 01:40 AM
03/29/17 01:40 AM
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fast68plymouth
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Everyone has their own priorities when testing, but to my way of thinking....... To not do a back to back test where the only thing changed is the heads, really just muddies the waters about how the heads themselves compare.
Test the 240 heads with the TF intake and the 4150 carb of your choice..... Get a number. Put the intake and carb back on the 270 heads as the starting point..... Get a number. That's a back to back comparison without anything else skewing the results.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278239
03/29/17 11:22 AM
03/29/17 11:22 AM
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an8sec70cuda
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Why not just test the 240 heads w/ a comparable out of the box manifold like you're gonna do w/ the 270 heads? Most people will not spend the big bucks like you did to have Wilson work their magic on an intake, so IMO you're giving the 240 heads an unfair advantage that will close the gap b/t the 2 heads.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2278282
03/29/17 12:52 PM
03/29/17 12:52 PM
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AndyF
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Why not just test the 240 heads w/ a comparable out of the box manifold like you're gonna do w/ the 270 heads? Most people will not spend the big bucks like you did to have Wilson work their magic on an intake, so IMO you're giving the 240 heads an unfair advantage that will close the gap b/t the 2 heads. Out of the box intakes stink, I've already proven that to myself multiple times with the 240 heads. The Victor 383 sucked, the Mopar M1 sucked, The Trick Flow intake didn't completely suck but it wasn't very good until Hughes did the deep port match. The Wilson modified M1 is the best low deck intake I have so that is my starting point. I expect the Indy intake to be fairly poor but we'll find out shortly.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278295
03/29/17 01:13 PM
03/29/17 01:13 PM
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an8sec70cuda
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So you won't be giving anyone a real world test to go by. I'd bet 99% of people reading about this test will use an out of the box intake if they were to use these heads.
Small heads w/ an expensive great flowing intake versus big heads w/ a crappy flowing intake. I'd like to see how much the bigger heads are worth over the smaller ones w/o having to make an assumption about the difference the intakes make.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: justinp61]
#2278312
03/29/17 02:13 PM
03/29/17 02:13 PM
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an8sec70cuda
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Apples to oranges IMO. Realistically all you are doing is testing two engine combinations, no compairisons.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2278337
03/29/17 02:41 PM
03/29/17 02:41 PM
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KOS
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So you won't be giving anyone a real world test to go by. I'd bet 99% of people reading about this test will use an out of the box intake if they were to use these heads.
Small heads w/ an expensive great flowing intake versus big heads w/ a crappy flowing intake. I'd like to see how much the bigger heads are worth over the smaller ones w/o having to make an assumption about the difference the intakes make. 100% correct....whether its down on power or not your going to give it a fair comparison.the only way to do it is same manifold on both.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278365
03/29/17 03:38 PM
03/29/17 03:38 PM
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gregsdart
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Why not look at how each head works compared to the other, running the intake that most people would run for that port size? It doesn't make sense to me to do it any other way. The one thing I would do would be a port match, so each head/manifold COMBO is getting a fair shake on the dyno, and would be very representative of the way each head will be used.
Last edited by gregsdart; 03/29/17 03:40 PM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: RustyM]
#2278381
03/29/17 04:01 PM
03/29/17 04:01 PM
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an8sec70cuda
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I bet you could buy 2 new Trick Flow manifolds for less than just the port work on that one MP manifold from Wilson cost.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: 70VcodeCoronetRT]
#2278385
03/29/17 04:05 PM
03/29/17 04:05 PM
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AndyF
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Andy, did you just have Wilson do their Competition porting on your M1? I'm looking at getting a 4150 version done. Thanks Yes it was the competition porting package. They added a lot of weld material on the outside of the runners in order to open them up to where they needed to be for a 470 inch engine.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: RustyM]
#2278390
03/29/17 04:12 PM
03/29/17 04:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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BradH
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I have to wonder what the costs are in having intakes for both heads models and those port matched for each, not to mention dyno time.
I'll take a w.a.g. at about $1500 for what you described, including some (not all) of the dyno expenses.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278410
03/29/17 05:11 PM
03/29/17 05:11 PM
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Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?
Thanks Charlie
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: CSK]
#2278476
03/29/17 07:19 PM
03/29/17 07:19 PM
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Brian Hafliger
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We'll have our 270 heads soon...hope we don't go outside the usable rpm range of the hyd. roller cam with them.
Andy are you going to try the edelbrock Victor MW intake on the 270 heads?
Brian Hafliger
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#2278504
03/29/17 08:48 PM
03/29/17 08:48 PM
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AndyF
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We'll have our 270 heads soon...hope we don't go outside the usable rpm range of the hyd. roller cam with them.
Andy are you going to try the edelbrock Victor MW intake on the 270 heads? I'm on a low deck so my Wilson prepped Super Victor will not fit. If that intake would fit then it is the one I'd use. (although the ports in that intake are larger than the small window ports that TF put in the 270 head)
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: CSK]
#2278507
03/29/17 08:55 PM
03/29/17 08:55 PM
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Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?
Thanks Charlie Just depends on your point of view. The average bracket guy can bolt it on and run just fine but if you're trying to squeeze power out of an engine they leave a lot to be desired. The port size is small, the plenum is poorly cast, etc. If you ever have the chance to compare an Indy intake casting next to a Trick Flow casting you'll see that Indy doesn't really put much effort into their pattern making. The plenum on my 440-3 is really sloppy. The cloverleaf pattern is uneven and the casting quality is kind of poor. On a high horsepower engine that uneven pattern is going to mess up the fuel distribution between cylinders. If you compare a raw Indy casting to an intake that Wilson has prepped you'll see a world of difference.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278525
03/29/17 09:33 PM
03/29/17 09:33 PM
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Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?
Thanks Charlie Just depends on your point of view. The average bracket guy can bolt it on and run just fine but if you're trying to squeeze power out of an engine they leave a lot to be desired. The port size is small, the plenum is poorly cast, etc. If you ever have the chance to compare an Indy intake casting next to a Trick Flow casting you'll see that Indy doesn't really put much effort into their pattern making. The plenum on my 440-3 is really sloppy. The cloverleaf pattern is uneven and the casting quality is kind of poor. On a high horsepower engine that uneven pattern is going to mess up the fuel distribution between cylinders. If you compare a raw Indy casting to an intake that Wilson has prepped you'll see a world of difference. Thanks Andy, not much choice on the low deck max wedge, when I got mine had to open up the ports to MW, & clean up the plenum, but mine is mostly a street car. Thanks again.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278550
03/29/17 10:25 PM
03/29/17 10:25 PM
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This is the port match out of the box for the Indy 400-3. My guess is that you are leaving 5% of the power on the table if you run this intake as is. The port match isn't even close to be correct. If Indy would just spend 5 minutes and run a CNC pass around each port and matched it to their intake port it would save the little guy a bunch of time and effort.
Last edited by AndyF; 03/29/17 10:26 PM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278579
03/29/17 11:09 PM
03/29/17 11:09 PM
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fast68plymouth
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2 sides to every argument...... The opposite view to "ootb intakes suck" is.... I've made 850hp with an ootb Indy 440-3.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2278611
03/29/17 11:46 PM
03/29/17 11:46 PM
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2 sides to every argument...... The opposite view to "ootb intakes suck" is.... I've made 850hp with an ootb Indy 440-3. Thats good to know,, WAY more power than my combination can make
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2278680
03/30/17 01:05 AM
03/30/17 01:05 AM
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HotRodDave
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I kind of like having a good port necked down a smidge at the opening so I can match it exactly to my heads, it makes the manifold a little more flexible as to what it will work with.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: RustyM]
#2278822
03/30/17 12:32 PM
03/30/17 12:32 PM
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How much of what we see in these mismatches can be attributed to core shift and how much to manufacturers not matching intakes to heads?
Thanks for all the helpful info guys- appreciate all you share. I consider it a missed opportunity by the mfgs to make extra money. If I sold CNC heads and I sold intake manifolds then the very least thing I would do is offer a CNC matching intake for an additional charge. The intake manifold already has to be in a machining center in order to surface the carb pad and drill and tap the bolts. Why not spend another 5 minutes of machine time and CNC the plenum for an extra $100 of revenue? Indy will CNC their dual plan intake to MW size if you ask so they know how to do this work. No idea why they don't take the next step and provide a good port match on the rest of their intakes.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2279199
03/30/17 11:19 PM
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Had some issues today but did manage to get some pulls done. One thing we figured out was that the billet valve covers are worth some horsepower so we switched over to them mid-day.
Last edited by AndyF; 03/30/17 11:19 PM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2279231
03/30/17 11:54 PM
03/30/17 11:54 PM
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Twostick
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Well it's too early for April Fools so what's the deal? Bulletproof valvetrain is distorting the head because of giant roller cam spring pressure so the billet valve covers act as a girdle? I don't see any oil lines to them for spring coolers. Kevin
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2279257
03/31/17 12:15 AM
03/31/17 12:15 AM
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2279268
03/31/17 12:34 AM
03/31/17 12:34 AM
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Twostick
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How much were you losing? I would think the other covers would leak oil if it was that serious of a vacuum leak but I guess the vacuum would prevent that. At atmospheric they probably sealed up fine to keep oil in so negative pressure distorted the clear tops? Kevin
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Coldart]
#2279513
03/31/17 12:50 PM
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Who's oil pan? Looks nice, clean/sanitary package. Oil pan is one I had custom made. It is a billet pan.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: PETE@BESTMACHINE]
#2279516
03/31/17 12:50 PM
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Would be nice to see actual dyno sheets to back up all these claims of horse power changes. Just saying Who prints dyno sheets anymore Pete? I'm all digital these days.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: RustyM]
#2279519
03/31/17 12:52 PM
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Please forgive a dumb question but, I won't know if I don't ask: How does the pan vacuum make more power? Better ring sealing? Oil staying away from crank journals?
Thanks Ring seal probably, maybe a little bit from reduced windage. This engine has an 043 top ring with lateral gas ports so pan vacuum probably helps the ring seal and maybe reduces flutter. Can't say I know for sure but more vacuum does make more power.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: HotRodDave]
#2279524
03/31/17 12:59 PM
03/31/17 12:59 PM
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justinp61
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I kind of like having a good port necked down a smidge at the opening so I can match it exactly to my heads, it makes the manifold a little more flexible as to what it will work with. I'm with Dave on this one. I'd rather the ports on the intake be a little small so I can match them to my heads.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: als499]
#2279703
03/31/17 05:33 PM
03/31/17 05:33 PM
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Andy, are you running it with the 270cc heads today? Thanks! Yep, we changed over to the 270 heads on the dyno and made some pulls. Getting close to 760 hp even with the as cast Indy intake. This engine would probably make 775 or 780 hp if I had a really good intake manifold. The oil filter is super clean after every run so that is good news. The block must not be moving around too much even though we are getting up there in power. There doesn't appear to be any metal chips at all in the filters so we just keep making pulls.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2279767
03/31/17 07:19 PM
03/31/17 07:19 PM
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fast68plymouth
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From the old thread: High level summary is that it makes 700 hp with a Trick Flow intake and a QF carb. With the Wilson intake and a Dominator it makes about 720 hp. That was 10.5cr, wet sump, TF 240 heads.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2279980
03/31/17 11:31 PM
03/31/17 11:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I have friends here very close to pulling the trigger on the 270 heads , however, as Dwayne mentioned in one of the threads- the 270 heads might not be the value the 240's are. Definitely not what I said, or implied. What I did say was that I didn't feel the 270's were going to have as much of an impact on the MW head market as the 240's have had on the std port market. They are still a very good value.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2280163
04/01/17 09:10 AM
04/01/17 09:10 AM
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Blusmbl
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Ring seal probably, maybe a little bit from reduced windage. This engine has an 043 top ring with lateral gas ports so pan vacuum probably helps the ring seal and maybe reduces flutter. Can't say I know for sure but more vacuum does make more power. Pumping loss work should be lower with a vacuum in the crankcase, that is likely where the power is coming from. It is probably making about the same indicated power, but the brake horsepower is up from the lower pumping losses.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2280390
04/01/17 03:23 PM
04/01/17 03:23 PM
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fast68plymouth
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I can't imagine what would be holding someone back from ordering either the TF 240 or 270 heads if they were building a combo where this is the type of head that will get the job done for them.
They aren't going to be substitute for a B1 head, or some of the bigger Indy heads, and probably aren't the best choice for a high cr big cube bracket motor where someone is looking to make 800hp+.
But if you were looking at "comparable" heads, and had these on your list of possibilities............ I can't see any reason not to pull the trigger.
Like the 240's, these heads are going to be very hard to beat from a power vs cost vs build quality standpoint.
There are other heads that will make just as much power(or more), especially if the motor is bigger and the combo is "racier", but it's going to cost more to get into them.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2280426
04/01/17 04:45 PM
04/01/17 04:45 PM
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fast68plymouth
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The TF 270 heads with roller springs and Ti retainers are $2600/pr.
I've had 4 sets of the 240 heads in the shop so far, and the overall fit and finish was very consistent. They all had the guide clearance quite a bit tighter than what I prefer, and the seals are on super tight, so you can't get them off(or at least I don't seem to be able to) without ruining them. So, IMO, the "prep" for the TF heads is to disassemble, hone guides, clean everything, verify spring pressures and installed heights, reassemble with new seals. The roller springs that come on the TF heads(TFS-16318) are almost $340...... So you're getting pretty good parts there.
If you can buy the EZ295 for the same price as the TF 270, it comes with flat tappet cam single springs, steel retainers, 7 deg stamped locks, and umbrella seals. If you buy the upgrades from Indy to get the heads so they are "similarly equipped"(k-950 springs, Ti retainers, 10deg locks, viton seals)to the TF 270's, it's going to add about $500 to the cost. Then, if you really want them to perform like they should, the valve seats should be recut, valves back cut, and the bowls and chambers blended to the seats. Then, again you have cleaning, checking spring pressures, installed heights, assembly, etc......... All of which adds up to another $500. If you wanted spring cups, it adds another $100, and you'll also need the oil line kit for $55.
While i feel those two heads are pretty comparable, the place where the TF head really starts to look attractive is....... The price.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2280552
04/01/17 09:33 PM
04/01/17 09:33 PM
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fast68plymouth
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.......don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference. I think common sense should be the driving decision maker here. Engine builds geared more towards the milder street applications, or moderate compression bracket builds using stock stroke cranks might tend to favor the 240's, while the higher hp "rowdier" combos, especially those with stroker cranks, should be able to exploit the added runner size and flow of the 270's. In other words, if you're looking for a 550-600hp 446, the 240's make more sense. If you're looking at doing something like a 700-750hp 505 or 520, then the 270's will get you there easier. For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear, and which one you select might come down to what other components/criteria are being considered(for example, does it all need to fit under a flat hood?).
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2280810
04/02/17 12:01 PM
04/02/17 12:01 PM
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fast68plymouth
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I thought I'd add a couple of other thoughts.......
I like doing my own heads, but obviously most people don't have the capabilities/equipment to do that.
So as nice as the TF heads are, if I were building something for myself where the TF heads would be a suitable option, I'd use the Indy EZ heads instead. I can buy the EZ's for quite a bit less than the TF heads, and then do the prep and porting myself.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: viperblue72]
#2281065
04/02/17 07:02 PM
04/02/17 07:02 PM
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Joined: May 2008
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@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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So this is a direct comparison of the 240 vs 270 other than intakes being a Wilson ported vs a ootb 400-3? And 720hp for the 240s 754 for the 270s. ??? Did I get this right without reading back through 5 pages again and watching videos trying to screenshot the horsepower peaks. A summary with compression ratios and cam specs would be nice.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2281142
04/02/17 09:28 PM
04/02/17 09:28 PM
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fast68plymouth
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My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is).
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2281163
04/02/17 09:56 PM
04/02/17 09:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
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Awesome of you to do this, Andy. What cam and compression are you running? This is the type of data that can save people a lot of time (and money) when it comes to putting together combinations and picking parts suitable to their budget and needs. Thanks for sharing, and hopefully TF is thanking you too...
2 kids and a dog
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#2281324
04/03/17 02:03 AM
04/03/17 02:03 AM
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fast68plymouth
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My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is). And the flip-side would be: what engine would be BETTER with the smaller heads. It's probably not a stroked motor. Well, I have seen many stroker builds on this site where the 240's would make more sense than the 270's. In order to really exploit the added potential of the 270 heads, you're going to want to run a fairly substantial cam and have enough intake manifold to keep up......... then you need more gear and more stall to match. That's just not what everyone is building. In fact, I'd say that might be 1/2 of what the people who call me are looking for. The other 1/2 could usually have their needs satisfied with stage 1 RPM heads....... only now with the 240's in the mix, they are an option that offers "more bang for the buck"........ but in many cases, even those would be a bit of overkill. It's no different than what the BBC guys have had for years. The largest runner volume head offered by the various suppliers isn't the best choice for every application.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: RustyM]
#2281325
04/03/17 02:05 AM
04/03/17 02:05 AM
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fast68plymouth
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Well, Dwayne , got me wondering now if I should have gotten the 270 heads. Hmm. This will see more street time than strip so, should be fine. All advice I found indicated the 240 heads were a good choice, hit our numbers , keep Intake velocity up etc.
Will know after we hit dyno . For the numbers you said were the target, the 240's will easily get you there.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2281481
04/03/17 12:44 PM
04/03/17 12:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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fast68plymouth
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I'm going to speculate a little further here.....
Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.
I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference. The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.
The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.
My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2281517
04/03/17 01:42 PM
04/03/17 01:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2017
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RustyM
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2282268
04/04/17 03:16 PM
04/04/17 03:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,319 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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I'm going to speculate a little further here.....
Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.
I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference. The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.
The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.
My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system. This is exactly why this test is misleading...b/c of the high dollar, very good flowing intake manifold used on the smaller heads. The bigger heads got saddled w/ a poor flowing intake (by comparison) and the numbers suffered. Not a true A to B test so we're left making assumptions.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282277
04/04/17 03:37 PM
04/04/17 03:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2009
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70VcodeCoronetRT
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Since TF is not offering a max wedge port intake. I would love to see a comparison between the 2 heads using the Trick Flow intake. Also is there any left in the 240 head with some cleaning up? Or is that just a waste of time?
Last edited by 4406forPOWER; 04/04/17 03:39 PM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2282390
04/04/17 06:44 PM
04/04/17 06:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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AndyF
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I'm going to speculate a little further here.....
Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.
I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference. The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.
The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.
My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system. This is exactly why this test is misleading...b/c of the high dollar, very good flowing intake manifold used on the smaller heads. The bigger heads got saddled w/ a poor flowing intake (by comparison) and the numbers suffered. Not a true A to B test so we're left making assumptions. The test wasn't misleading for me. I learned what I wanted to know and found the test to be very worthwhile. I shared the information that I learned so other people could also learn the same thing without having to invest their own money.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2282422
04/04/17 08:15 PM
04/04/17 08:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
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Thanks for all the info during all the TF testing Andy!
For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear.
This is where I am stuck... Then is it worth it to get the TF intake if I already have a 4150 M1, and it will just snow-ball from there...
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282496
04/04/17 10:09 PM
04/04/17 10:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I wouldn't build a motor, or base any significant upgrades I had planned around a $250 intake manifold.
Decide where you want to end up after the upgrades, then the decision should get easier......and if you can put that m1 into use as part of the upgrade, great.
If you're planning on going towards the upper end of the 600-700 range, the 270's are the easier path...... provided the intake manifold associated with using those heads fits in with the rest of your plans.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282619
04/05/17 01:12 AM
04/05/17 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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fast68plymouth
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One rule usually holds true when dyno testing...... the person paying the bill gets to test what they want. The other thing is, there's never enough time to test everything you want.
I think if you went back to my original thread about the TF 240 heads, there are some tests Andy did with this same cam and the unmodified manifolds.
The 270 heads with the ootb 400-3 made 750-ish. Take off say....... 15-20(??) for the dry sump....... call it 730-ish.
Edit: I went back and read through some of that first thread....... looks like with the ootb m1 and the 4500 carb the other motor made 685hp with this cam.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282727
04/05/17 11:07 AM
04/05/17 11:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559 Idaho
LaRoy Engines
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Thanks Andy. But, next time, schedule a 14 day dyno test. We'll tell you what to run and how to do it and what to print out for us. Then we can get all our desired information on your dollar.
Last edited by LaRoy Engines; 04/05/17 11:09 AM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282775
04/05/17 12:43 PM
04/05/17 12:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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fast68plymouth
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Indy EZ heads have been out for quite a while now. One test I've always wanted to do was a comparison between the std port head and the MW head...... Using the same set of heads.
Baseline runs with the heads at std port size and a couple of intakes, then pull the heads, open to MW size, test with a couple of MW sized intakes.
As much as I'd like to do that test....... I never seem to have the time to build a motor for the test, then actually do the test.
So, I'd say Andy's testing at the very least gives people an idea of what kind of numbers are possible from the new TF heads. It's unlikely they're going to build the exact same motor as he did anyway, so the results shouldn't be expected to be exactly the same....... But there's enough info so you(an experienced engine builder) should be able to have a pretty good idea of where you'll end up.
I could add testing the 240 vs 270 heads to my long list of things I'd love to try on the dyno........... But my advice is to not hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282780
04/05/17 12:56 PM
04/05/17 12:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559 Idaho
LaRoy Engines
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I own a dyno and I've posted some of my dyno tests online. All the time I get, "You should have tested it this way......."
It cost money to run that dyno so I tell 'um, "Send money and I will test it that way!"
NEVER had a taker on that offer. They are willing to take free information and too damn cheap to pay for their wants. I test things my way for my desired information.
For free....you get what I offer and that is getting to be less and less.
Stick to your guns Andy, fast68plymouth is able to extrapolate information from your results. Let some of the others start using their brains like he does.
Last edited by LaRoy Engines; 04/05/17 12:58 PM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2282801
04/05/17 01:24 PM
04/05/17 01:24 PM
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AndyF
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One rule usually holds true when dyno testing...... the person paying the bill gets to test what they want. The other thing is, there's never enough time to test everything you want.
I think if you went back to my original thread about the TF 240 heads, there are some tests Andy did with this same cam and the unmodified manifolds.
The 270 heads with the ootb 400-3 made 750-ish. Take off say....... 15-20(??) for the dry sump....... call it 730-ish.
Edit: I went back and read through some of that first thread....... looks like with the ootb m1 and the 4500 carb the other motor made 685hp with this cam. Correct. Some people are forgetting that I've already run 80+ dyno pulls on the 240 heads and have published all of that information. The 240 combo is now a very well developed platform so comparing the very best 240 pull to the first set of 270 pulls isn't going to give you the full picture.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282880
04/05/17 03:28 PM
04/05/17 03:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,963 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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First off, I would like to offer my thanks for the posts Andy, always something to learn! It is easy for some of us key board dyno enthusiasts to say " why not do it this way", forgeting the time, money, and earning a living are all part of the equation, not to mention the experiance you have from past builds leads to tests you want to do may be tougher to relate to because of that. Thanks again.
Last edited by gregsdart; 04/05/17 03:31 PM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: RustyM]
#2282921
04/05/17 04:43 PM
04/05/17 04:43 PM
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AndyF
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Andy: Will there be other pulls with the 279 heads on the 470? Fwiw- hoping that's the case.
Thanks As long as I have money and time I'll keep testing. I'm in the process f sending the Indy intake to Wilson for porting. Not sure if I'll also convert it to EFI at the same time or wait for a third round of testing to go EFI. I might send the heads to Jesel for rocker arms. They haven't seen a set of 270 heads yet so I might be the guinea pig for them. If that deal works out then I'll send the heads to Dwayne also since both places are on the East Coast. If the deal with Jesel doesn't work out then I'll just keep running the T&D rockers. In any case it will probably be a couple of months before I'm back on the dyno with this engine and these heads. My next project is to get the 514 back on the dyno with EFI and Q16.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282952
04/05/17 05:59 PM
04/05/17 05:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2017
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RustyM
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Thanks Andy:
Fwiw - You have helped me greatly , not only with the 470/trick flow data, but advice, your books and info all over the Mopar internet.
We bought the Trick Flow heads based on info found here at Moparts, Andy, Dwayne and others builders here working with the heads. Been out of this game for over 30 years and have a build going that i'm pretty sure will make projected numbers because of those on these boards.
Does all of Andy's testing apply to my build? Nope, not at all- but the math does. As someone mentioned- extrapolating info, some here, some there- applying the math etc. Then talking with others, being willing to listen, take advice from others who know how to apply the data- its all a blessing, huge education that- honestly, someone else paid for- Goes to Leroy Engines point.
So- this old man thanks all of you and will continue watching, reading and trying to soak up these classes someone else worked and paid for.
Personally will try to buy products and services where I can from those here that share in order to help everyone.
Thanks again,
Rusty
P.S. Now Andy, about that Trick flow intake on the 270 heads,,,, hahahahahahaha
Last edited by RustyM; 04/05/17 06:00 PM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2282955
04/05/17 06:03 PM
04/05/17 06:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
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I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes
Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: OUTLAWD]
#2282989
04/05/17 07:38 PM
04/05/17 07:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes
Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3? C.I.? C.R.? Application? Planning to switch to a Dominator-type carb? All I can say at this point is a port-matched (if you can even get it that big) standard-port intake would be my last choice.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: OUTLAWD]
#2282996
04/05/17 07:52 PM
04/05/17 07:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
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I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes
Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3? There are lots of choices for RB intakes with MW ports. For a race engine I'd probably start with the Super Victor but the Mopar 337 is also a very good intake. People have had good luck with the 440-2 over the years. Then there are the multi-carb intakes such as the cross ram, Indy X ram and Mod Man. There is even the Indy DP which is available with MW ports. I wouldn't run the dual plane on a race engine but it works nice on a street engine.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: BradH]
#2283817
04/07/17 10:11 AM
04/07/17 10:11 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
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C.I.=493 C.R.=10.5:1 Application: Street/strip, 3700lb w/ driver, 9.5" ~4400 converter
Probably stay 4150, then go proper MPI down the road at some point. Hood clearance isn't too much an issue, I should be able to fit an adapter and N2O plate under the scoop
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2283915
04/07/17 01:02 PM
04/07/17 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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RB, true MW sized manifold, 4150 carb pad....... Pretty much narrows it down to a 440-2 or 440-2D.
For MPI use, I would think the 440-2 would be the preferred choice.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2283938
04/07/17 01:48 PM
04/07/17 01:48 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,488 northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
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I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes
Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3? There are lots of choices for RB intakes with MW ports. For a race engine I'd probably start with the Super Victor but the Mopar 337 is also a very good intake. People have had good luck with the 440-2 over the years. Then there are the multi-carb intakes such as the cross ram, Indy X ram and Mod Man. There is even the Indy DP which is available with MW ports. I wouldn't run the dual plane on a race engine but it works nice on a street engine. I was looking for an opinion on the Modman intake if you care to get into more detail.
Last edited by Clanton; 04/07/17 01:49 PM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Clanton]
#2283963
04/07/17 02:40 PM
04/07/17 02:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Not to hijack but I have dyno tested two different sets of heads that flowed 30 CFM different with every thing else the same, compression, camshaft, intake manifold carb, but not the same rocker arms due to testing a set of Indy SR M.W. that flowed 340 CFM @.700 lift and then a set of CNC ported 440-1 that flowed 370 @ .700 lift. I had Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio rockers on both sets of heads, I tested both sets of heads on two different short blocks and the bigger heads made 48 HP more on the pump gas 518 C.I. low deck stroker(727 HP with the SR and 775 HP with the 440-1) and they made 70 HP more(775 with the SR and 845 with the 440-1) on the high compression 526 C.I. RB motor. IHTHs
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2372777
09/18/17 03:44 PM
09/18/17 03:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
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Andy: Will there be other pulls with the 279 heads on the 470? Fwiw- hoping that's the case.
Thanks As long as I have money and time I'll keep testing. I'm in the process f sending the Indy intake to Wilson for porting. Not sure if I'll also convert it to EFI at the same time or wait for a third round of testing to go EFI. I might send the heads to Jesel for rocker arms. They haven't seen a set of 270 heads yet so I might be the guinea pig for them. If that deal works out then I'll send the heads to Dwayne also since both places are on the East Coast. If the deal with Jesel doesn't work out then I'll just keep running the T&D rockers. In any case it will probably be a couple of months before I'm back on the dyno with this engine and these heads. My next project is to get the 514 back on the dyno with EFI and Q16. Well it ended up being 5 months not a couple but I am ready to take this 470 with the 270 heads back to the dyno again. I pulled off the dry sump system and will go with a wet sump pan and an external belt drive pump. I'll be interested to see how that works. The more interesting test for me will be the Wilson M1 vs. the Wilson Indy intake. The Wilson ported Indy intake has 18% more internal volume. It is taller and has the full MW runners. The Wilson M1 made a little better power than the unported Indy intake last time I ran them but I figure the Wilson porting on the Indy intake should now make it the top of the pile.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: SILVER67]
#2373428
09/19/17 05:26 PM
09/19/17 05:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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So would the 270's be a touch on the small side for a bracket/street 540+ cube build?
No worse than RPM's on a 505.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2373511
09/19/17 07:54 PM
09/19/17 07:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Too bad you don't know someone near you with a stock(or stock-ish) 400-3 you could use for a quick back to back test.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2373531
09/19/17 08:23 PM
09/19/17 08:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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AndyF
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Too bad you don't know someone near you with a stock(or stock-ish) 400-3 you could use for a quick back to back test. I already ran the 400-3 in stock form and it wasn't anything great. I have the Wilson M1 to use as the control sample since I also ran it on the last dyno test. I don't think I need two control samples.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2373538
09/19/17 08:33 PM
09/19/17 08:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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But...... It was a dry sump with that test. Not the type of true "back to back" I like to see.
Since the intakes are so easy to swap on these motors, I figured if there was one available.....
But, I'm not paying the bill....... So I get it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: davenc]
#2374289
09/21/17 12:50 AM
09/21/17 12:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
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I can't tell how big those channels are, but in reviewing the MEWagner PVC valve instructions the point about having a good sized opening on the baffle to reduce air velocity to reduce ability to carry oil made a lot of sense to me. I added some 1/4" standoffs to my existing baffle. The channels in the vent have roughly the same cross section area as the #12 line so it should be fine.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Scott440]
#2374293
09/21/17 12:54 AM
09/21/17 12:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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AndyF
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AndyF, First, thank you for sharing this amazing R&D.
For those of us with max wedge ports and 1.5 rockers, it's still impossible to know how much we'd gain with 1.65 rockers, because your 1.5 rockers were only tested with standard ports right?
I think this was a question you were curious about, and some of us would have wanted to know too. Yeah I think I'm done with rocker arm testing! Takes a lot of time and money and the results aren't very predictable. I sold off most of my rocker arm sets and moved on. I kept the T&D rockers for this engine since they are super high quality. They didn't make more power than some of the less expensive rockers that I tested but I think they will last longer.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2374830
09/22/17 12:07 AM
09/22/17 12:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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AndyF
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I don't know if T&D created a part number for the Trick Flow rockers or not. My invoice says part number 8200 Special 1.480 long rocker. So you can call them and see what they say. Here is a picture of the T&D rockers if you need it for reference.
Last edited by AndyF; 09/22/17 12:10 AM.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2374998
09/22/17 01:00 PM
09/22/17 01:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I don't know if T&D created a part number for the Trick Flow rockers or not. My invoice says part number 8200 Special 1.480 long rocker. So you can call them and see what they say. Here is a picture of the T&D rockers if you need it for reference. I'm pretty sure the standard fulcrum length for T&D's basic BBM rockers is 1.520; looks like they shortened it up a tad for the Trick Flow heads.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2379031
09/29/17 08:10 PM
09/29/17 08:10 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030 ohio
67mprfan
super stock
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No, the 470-240 combo is in my Duster now and has been converted to EFI. I don't think I need to put it back on the dyno since I know what it does.
The 470-270 combo will go back to the dyno to test the oil pan, vacuum pump and the Wilson Indy intake. Once I finish up that work I'll probably put that engine up for sale since I don't have any plans for it. Can hardly wait a got a 67 Belvedere that waiting for a BIG Block
71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it. 67 Belvedere that worked it's way in the 10's
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2381912
10/04/17 06:17 PM
10/04/17 06:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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How are you getting oil pressure into the block?
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 10/04/17 06:18 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2381939
10/04/17 06:26 PM
10/04/17 06:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,169 Virginia Beach, VA
Old School
super stock
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super stock
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Virginia Beach, VA
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How would that ever fit in a car.....
68 cuda formula S 588" bb 5sp 70 CUDA CONVERT 500" 5SP (SUBLIME) 70 CUDA CONVERT 500" 5SP (PLUMCRAZY):TOO MUCH HORSEPOWER, IS ALMOST ENOUGH!
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2382023
10/04/17 07:22 PM
10/04/17 07:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
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How are you getting oil pressure into the block? #12 line from the top of the pump goes to a filter and then another #12 line from the filter goes into the block plate. The block plate is behind the pump in this picture.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Old School]
#2382024
10/04/17 07:24 PM
10/04/17 07:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
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How would that ever fit in a car..... I guess guys figure it out. A lot of the serious NHRA guys run external oil pumps. I suppose anyone who knows how to put a dry sump system in a car can figure out how to put a belt drive oil pump in a car.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2382025
10/04/17 07:24 PM
10/04/17 07:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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How are you getting oil pressure into the block? #12 line from the top of the pump goes to a filter and then another #12 line from the filter goes into the block plate. The block plate is behind the pump in this picture. Thanks for sharing that
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2382805
10/06/17 01:47 AM
10/06/17 01:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
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How are you getting oil pressure into the block? Here is a picture showing the line from the oil pump to the filter and then the line back to the block. Fairly simple setup but it looks complex because the hoses run back and forth.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2383321
10/07/17 10:29 AM
10/07/17 10:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,003 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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Shelby Twp. Mi
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Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?
Thanks Charlie Just depends on your point of view. The average bracket guy can bolt it on and run just fine but if you're trying to squeeze power out of an engine they leave a lot to be desired. The port size is small, the plenum is poorly cast, etc. If you ever have the chance to compare an Indy intake casting next to a Trick Flow casting you'll see that Indy doesn't really put much effort into their pattern making. The plenum on my 440-3 is really sloppy. The cloverleaf pattern is uneven and the casting quality is kind of poor. On a high horsepower engine that uneven pattern is going to mess up the fuel distribution between cylinders. If you compare a raw Indy casting to an intake that Wilson has prepped you'll see a world of difference. Andy, can you post the port EGT's so we can see the difference in manifold fuel distribution?
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2383897
10/08/17 02:37 PM
10/08/17 02:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
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It has a modified 950 Dominator on it. The problem with using EGT for cylinder balance is that the thermocouples don't all read the same. Also, they are super sensitive to placement. So as far as I'm concerned, if they are within 100 degrees then they are equal. If you wiggle the thermocouple around you can change the temp quite a bit so that tells me that the thermocouple placement is changing the reading, not the mixture. Here is a video of a dyno pull. You can watch the EGT readings if you want but I don't pay a huge amount of attention to them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hol_SteaFPY
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2387157
10/14/17 12:43 AM
10/14/17 12:43 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,505 TN
SCATPACK 1
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.......don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference. I think common sense should be the driving decision maker here. Engine builds geared more towards the milder street applications, or moderate compression bracket builds using stock stroke cranks might tend to favor the 240's, while the higher hp "rowdier" combos, especially those with stroker cranks, should be able to exploit the added runner size and flow of the 270's. In other words, if you're looking for a 550-600hp 446, the 240's make more sense. If you're looking at doing something like a 700-750hp 505 or 520, then the 270's will get you there easier. For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear, and which one you select might come down to what other components/criteria are being considered(for example, does it all need to fit under a flat hood?). How much more power from the 240 heads over a good set of 906 heads (no port work, just bowl area and good valve job)?
Old Geezer Racing
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2387395
10/14/17 04:33 PM
10/14/17 04:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,003 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
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Yep made two pulls before quitting time. 762 and 756 hp for the pulls. This is with the M1 intake and no vacuum pump. I'm expecting to pick up power with the vacuum pump and the larger Indy intake. Should get a bunch of runs tomorrow. Weather is perfect, should be correcting down in the morning. Air is dense. Thanks again Andy for sharing. Just to clarify, you made about 760HP without a vacuum pump using the M1 and then 775HP without vacuum but using the Indy intake? So you would guess, around 790HP using a vacuum pump on this engine with the Indy intake? I looked at the video and it appears some (at least one) of the EGT's are damaged and not reading correctly. Take my experience for what it's worth, they are a cheap alternative for dialing in distribution when executed correctly. So I understand why you wouldn't use a feature like this to tune. Either way this is an impressive build. Good work.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2387397
10/14/17 04:36 PM
10/14/17 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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HardcoreB
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I'd like to have an eight O2 sensor setup but I don't think it fits into my budget at the moment. EXACTLY... 8 AFR sensors...$$$ I have no doubt the distribution was pretty decent, I just wanted to see what it actually was is all.
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2392915
10/25/17 02:41 PM
10/25/17 02:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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With been through this debate a few times in the heads up stuff. We have shown as have others that in terms of HP it is a wash between a dry and wet sump. Lobbying to get penalties removed from a dry sump set up was the motivation. They have changed the rule to a 5% addition for a dry sump which is down from 10% but still wont do away with that rule. It benefits us now as we run a wet sump system now. The dry sump shines in two areas, oil control and generally speaking the ability to pull more vacuum. Although we can pull 20" on a wet sump...
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2393013
10/25/17 06:43 PM
10/25/17 06:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
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CSK
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The other thing is that I don't think a low rpm pump gas engine is all that good of a test bed for this stuff. If I really want to see what is going on I need to build a high rpm screamer and then do some testing. Probably need to build something that has a power peak up around 8000 or 8500 rpm before the power changes start to get bigger. Just not a lot of choices for doing that with a BB Mopar unless I buy a KB block and then get some B1 heads or something like that. you could build a steel crank high rpm 400. that is if we had money to burn
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: AndyF]
#2393366
10/26/17 02:23 PM
10/26/17 02:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131 New Lenox IL
cudadon
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Just finished up the analysis and building charts for the magazine article. Short summary is that on this engine a wet sump with vac pump made basically the same power as a dry sump setup. So pick your poison.
The Wilson porting work on the Indy intake picked up a nice chunk of power. The gain over the unported intake was more than 30 hp at the top of curve. The unported intake was run on the dry sump engine while the ported intake was on the wet sump + vac pump combo.
So if you have an as cast Indy 400-3 and you are making around 750 hp, sending that intake to Wilson for porting should be worth 25 or 30 hp. Andy when Wilson ported the Indy intake did they leave the clover leaf or change it to square flange? Witch magazine is this article in? Thanks for passing your tech to us! Don
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Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno
[Re: cudadon]
#2393387
10/26/17 03:03 PM
10/26/17 03:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947 Oregon
AndyF
OP
I Win
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OP
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
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Just finished up the analysis and building charts for the magazine article. Short summary is that on this engine a wet sump with vac pump made basically the same power as a dry sump setup. So pick your poison.
The Wilson porting work on the Indy intake picked up a nice chunk of power. The gain over the unported intake was more than 30 hp at the top of curve. The unported intake was run on the dry sump engine while the ported intake was on the wet sump + vac pump combo.
So if you have an as cast Indy 400-3 and you are making around 750 hp, sending that intake to Wilson for porting should be worth 25 or 30 hp. Andy when Wilson ported the Indy intake did they leave the clover leaf or change it to square flange? Witch magazine is this article in? Thanks for passing your tech to us! Don Wilson has always gotten rid of the clover leaf design on any intake they have ported for me. There are some pictures earlier in this thread but here are some more. All of my tech articles are on the Hot Rod website. Just go to Hot Rod and then search for 470 or 270 Trick Flow or something like that and you'll find them.
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