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#2382025 - 10/04/17 05:24 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Cab_Burge Offline
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 29735
Loc: Bend,OR USA
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


#12 line from the top of the pump goes to a filter and then another #12 line from the filter goes into the block plate. The block plate is behind the pump in this picture.
up
Thanks for sharing that thumbs
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#2382627 - 10/05/17 06:11 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
BradH Offline
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13404
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By AndyF
... I'm going to put it on the dyno tomorrow and we'll see what happens.

So... did it get flogged on the dyno today? Oh, right, you're 3 hours behind me. wink

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#2382714 - 10/05/17 08:34 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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Loc: Oregon
Yep made two pulls before quitting time. 762 and 756 hp for the pulls. This is with the M1 intake and no vacuum pump. I'm expecting to pick up power with the vacuum pump and the larger Indy intake. Should get a bunch of runs tomorrow. Weather is perfect, should be correcting down in the morning. Air is dense.

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#2382805 - 10/05/17 11:47 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Cab_Burge]
AndyF Online   content
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Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


Here is a picture showing the line from the oil pump to the filter and then the line back to the block. Fairly simple setup but it looks complex because the hoses run back and forth.


Attachments
DSC_1420 (Large).JPG



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#2383178 - 10/06/17 08:30 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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Posts: 23348
Loc: Oregon
Ended up making 775 hp with the Wilson ported Indy intake. Not bad for a pump gas engine using OOTB cylinder heads.

The Indy intake was 15 hp better than the Mopar M1 intake (both are fully ported by Wilson) which seems reasonable given the Indy is a MW port size while the M1 is standard port size.

The vacuum pump was worth 15 hp at 15 inches of vacuum. We didn't play with the vacuum level, just ran the pump right out of the box. There is an adjustable relief valve on the pump but I didn't touch it.

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#2383243 - 10/06/17 10:35 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
BradH Offline
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Registered: 01/30/03
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The 775 HP # sure seems impressive for the combination. I'm still surprised there isn't a bigger difference between the standard-port M1 and the MW Indy. It makes me wonder how much improvement you should expect from port-matching a standard-port intake to standard-port heads, unless there is a horrible mismatch in the first place.

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#2383285 - 10/07/17 12:59 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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Loc: Oregon
Yeah the Engine Master guys were having to heavily rework heads a few years back to make numbers like this and now we can hit the number with OOTB heads. Pretty cool that technology has moved forward that much in the last few years.

The 15 hp is peak to peak. The std port intake has a big hole in the torque curve which I assume is due to the mis-match. The Wilson ported Indy has a much better curve. I need to pull up the old data and look at it but this Indy intake right out of the box was a bit of a mess on the dyno. So the Wilson porting is what saved that intake.

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#2383321 - 10/07/17 08:29 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2509
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted By AndyF
Originally Posted By csk
Andy ,Not wanting to hijack,but what is wrong with the Indy 400-3,400-2 ?

Thanks Charlie


Just depends on your point of view. The average bracket guy can bolt it on and run just fine but if you're trying to squeeze power out of an engine they leave a lot to be desired. The port size is small, the plenum is poorly cast, etc. If you ever have the chance to compare an Indy intake casting next to a Trick Flow casting you'll see that Indy doesn't really put much effort into their pattern making. The plenum on my 440-3 is really sloppy. The cloverleaf pattern is uneven and the casting quality is kind of poor. On a high horsepower engine that uneven pattern is going to mess up the fuel distribution between cylinders. If you compare a raw Indy casting to an intake that Wilson has prepped you'll see a world of difference.

Andy, can you post the port EGT's so we can see the difference in manifold fuel distribution?

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#2383452 - 10/07/17 01:47 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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I don't really have an easy way of posting EGT info. It isn't all that uniform, maybe 100 degrees different from hottest to coolest cylinder. Here is a shot of the results but EGT info isn't on this screen.


Attachments
DSC_1457 (Large).JPG



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#2383853 - 10/08/17 11:23 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2509
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
I understand, thank you anyway. So distribution with even the Wilson modified intake is not great? How does it compare to the M1 Wilson did? Maybe when you convert to efi you can dial a better balance into each cylinder?..would be worth a decent gain. What carb is on it now?

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#2383897 - 10/08/17 12:37 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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It has a modified 950 Dominator on it. The problem with using EGT for cylinder balance is that the thermocouples don't all read the same. Also, they are super sensitive to placement. So as far as I'm concerned, if they are within 100 degrees then they are equal. If you wiggle the thermocouple around you can change the temp quite a bit so that tells me that the thermocouple placement is changing the reading, not the mixture.

Here is a video of a dyno pull. You can watch the EGT readings if you want but I don't pay a huge amount of attention to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hol_SteaFPY

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#2387157 - 10/13/17 10:43 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
SCATPACK 1 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1369
Loc: TN
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Quote:
.......don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference.


I think common sense should be the driving decision maker here.
Engine builds geared more towards the milder street applications, or moderate compression bracket builds using stock stroke cranks might tend to favor the 240's, while the higher hp "rowdier" combos, especially those with stroker cranks, should be able to exploit the added runner size and flow of the 270's.

In other words, if you're looking for a 550-600hp 446, the 240's make more sense.
If you're looking at doing something like a 700-750hp 505 or 520, then the 270's will get you there easier.

For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear, and which one you select might come down to what other components/criteria are being considered(for example, does it all need to fit under a flat hood?).

How much more power from the 240 heads over a good set of 906 heads (no port work, just bowl area and good valve job)?
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#2387278 - 10/14/17 09:44 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: SCATPACK 1]
BradH Offline
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Loc: Valhalla... eventually
I know of some pro tuners who don't even bother with EGTs any more and use wideband O2 sensors on all cylinders... they say EGTs aren't a good indicator of the tune in comparison.

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#2387389 - 10/14/17 02:24 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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Loc: Oregon
I'd like to have an eight O2 sensor setup but I don't think it fits into my budget at the moment.

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#2387395 - 10/14/17 02:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2509
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted By AndyF
Yep made two pulls before quitting time. 762 and 756 hp for the pulls. This is with the M1 intake and no vacuum pump. I'm expecting to pick up power with the vacuum pump and the larger Indy intake. Should get a bunch of runs tomorrow. Weather is perfect, should be correcting down in the morning. Air is dense.

Thanks again Andy for sharing. Just to clarify, you made about 760HP without a vacuum pump using the M1 and then 775HP without vacuum but using the Indy intake? So you would guess, around 790HP using a vacuum pump on this engine with the Indy intake? I looked at the video and it appears some (at least one) of the EGT's are damaged and not reading correctly. Take my experience for what it's worth, they are a cheap alternative for dialing in distribution when executed correctly. So I understand why you wouldn't use a feature like this to tune. Either way this is an impressive build. Good work.

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#2387397 - 10/14/17 02:36 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2509
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted By AndyF
I'd like to have an eight O2 sensor setup but I don't think it fits into my budget at the moment.

EXACTLY... 8 AFR sensors...$$$ I have no doubt the distribution was pretty decent, I just wanted to see what it actually was is all.

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#2391561 - 10/22/17 10:42 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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Posts: 23348
Loc: Oregon
Just finished up the analysis and building charts for the magazine article. Short summary is that on this engine a wet sump with vac pump made basically the same power as a dry sump setup. So pick your poison.

The Wilson porting work on the Indy intake picked up a nice chunk of power. The gain over the unported intake was more than 30 hp at the top of curve. The unported intake was run on the dry sump engine while the ported intake was on the wet sump + vac pump combo.

So if you have an as cast Indy 400-3 and you are making around 750 hp, sending that intake to Wilson for porting should be worth 25 or 30 hp.

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#2392860 - 10/25/17 10:50 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Online   content
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Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23348
Loc: Oregon
I spent some more time with the data and looked at avg power and area under the curve. For dry sump vs. wet sump + vac pump the avg hp was 634 vs. 635. So the wet sump + vac pump was 0.2% better. Very small difference. Area under the curve was similar results. Wet sump with vac pump was 19710 vs. 19644 so 0.3% better. So I think that is a tie.

The biggest difference was the Wilson porting. 639 avg hp vs. 624 avg hp for unported. Area under the curve was 19819 ported vs. 19355 unported. Right at a 2.5% power increase in both avg and area under curve. Pretty significant increase.

The pulls were 4000 to 7000 so avg power is from 4000 to 7000. 630 hp average from 4000 to 7000 seems pretty good to me.

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#2392893 - 10/25/17 11:59 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
DoubleD Offline
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: NE Ohio
I am not surprised you did not see a significant difference on the dyno especially with a long skirted mopar big block - where a dry sump really shines for oil control is when you add another force to the equation - as in running down the track or worse yet around corners like oval track or road course. I think the system you designed really would have a huge benefit in a chassis car where you could drop the engine really low in the chassis.

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#2392915 - 10/25/17 12:41 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Al_Alguire Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16307
Loc: Rockville MD & Las Vegas
With been through this debate a few times in the heads up stuff. We have shown as have others that in terms of HP it is a wash between a dry and wet sump. Lobbying to get penalties removed from a dry sump set up was the motivation. They have changed the rule to a 5% addition for a dry sump which is down from 10% but still wont do away with that rule. It benefits us now as we run a wet sump system now. The dry sump shines in two areas, oil control and generally speaking the ability to pull more vacuum. Although we can pull 20" on a wet sump...
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