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#2374293 - 09/20/17 10:54 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Scott440]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Scott440
AndyF, First, thank you for sharing this amazing R&D.

For those of us with max wedge ports and 1.5 rockers, it's still impossible to know how much we'd gain with 1.65 rockers, because your 1.5 rockers were only tested with standard ports right?

I think this was a question you were curious about, and some of us would have wanted to know too.


Yeah I think I'm done with rocker arm testing! Takes a lot of time and money and the results aren't very predictable. I sold off most of my rocker arm sets and moved on. I kept the T&D rockers for this engine since they are super high quality. They didn't make more power than some of the less expensive rockers that I tested but I think they will last longer.

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#2374809 - 09/21/17 09:38 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
srunge55 Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 425
Loc: St Louis, MO, USA
Andy where these the T&D you had made for the Trick Flow heads? If so, do you have a T&D part number to share?

Thanks,

Steve

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#2374830 - 09/21/17 10:07 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
I don't know if T&D created a part number for the Trick Flow rockers or not. My invoice says part number 8200 Special 1.480 long rocker. So you can call them and see what they say. Here is a picture of the T&D rockers if you need it for reference.


Attachments
DSC_1208 (Large).JPG




Edited by AndyF (09/21/17 10:10 PM)

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#2374879 - 09/22/17 12:55 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
srunge55 Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 425
Loc: St Louis, MO, USA
thanks Andy

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#2374992 - 09/22/17 10:50 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
I will say that working with T&D wasn't smooth sailing. I sent them a cylinder head so they could double check the fit of the new rocker arms. They didn't bother to bolt the rockers on my head. They sent the head back with the rocker arms and nothing fit. So then it all got shipped back and they redid the setup and then shipped it all back to me again. Seemed like they had some turnover in the shop and right hand didn't talk to left hand and stuff like that.

So it wasn't smooth sailing but now that I have the rockers and everything works I'm pretty happy with them. Just saying that if you want T&D to build you something custom don't assume you'll get the project finished on any sort of tight schedule.

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#2374998 - 09/22/17 11:00 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13201
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By AndyF
I don't know if T&D created a part number for the Trick Flow rockers or not. My invoice says part number 8200 Special 1.480 long rocker. So you can call them and see what they say. Here is a picture of the T&D rockers if you need it for reference.

I'm pretty sure the standard fulcrum length for T&D's basic BBM rockers is 1.520; looks like they shortened it up a tad for the Trick Flow heads.
_________________________
Life's too short to waste time on dumb@ss internet pi$$in' contests...

Living by the motto “It’s just easier to keep buying parts than bother with actually putting them together” since 2010… or was it 2000?

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#2375028 - 09/22/17 12:00 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: BradH]
srunge55 Offline
mopar

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 425
Loc: St Louis, MO, USA
I called T&D and the part number for TF heads is 8260 and you can request the rocker ratio you want.

Something I wonder about is that TF recommends using the HS rockers designed for the Edelbrock RPM head. The T&D rocker for the RPM head is 1.520 long but for the TF head they spec'd 1.480. I couldn't find the spec for the HS rocker but it seems T&D calculated a shorter length then TF did. Maybe TF was just trying to use the closest existing part available. I'm hoping T&D's measurements are more accurate.

Andy, I know you tested both of these parts; did one fit better than the other? I did read your rocker arm article but I don't recall if your commented on this.

Thanks,

Steve

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#2375033 - 09/22/17 12:25 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
You would have to call HS to see what the length of their TF rocker arm is. I know it is shorter than the normal rocker arm. (which I always thought was too long). I do not know if it is also 1.480 but I bet it is close. I think the HS rocker arm for Edelbrock and TF heads if 0.050 shorter than the standard Mopar rocker arm but my memory could be playing tricks with me.

I think I posted pictures of all of the rocker arms mounted up on a TF head back in one of the original TF threads. From what I recall, the HS, Mancini, Hughes and T&D rocker arms all had excellent geometry on the TF head. But, this is after getting custom T&D rockers made and using the short HS rockers. I was pretty careful to order the correct stuff for the TF heads and I ended up with parts that fit correctly.

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#2375119 - 09/22/17 03:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
340Cuda Offline
pro stock

Registered: 04/04/03
Posts: 1562
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
If you have questions send and e-mail to Harlan Sharp. In my experience they answer quickly.

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#2377482 - 09/26/17 10:20 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Scott440 Offline
mopar

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 429
Loc: New Mexico
Was this the final cam used?

Comp Cams 264/268 solid roller with HXL and HXX lobes

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#2377528 - 09/27/17 12:15 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
Yes, the 470 with the 270 heads has that Comp grind in it. The other 470 with the 240 heads has the Ultradyne roller in it.

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#2377585 - 09/27/17 08:22 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
HardcoreB Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2498
Loc: Shelby Twp. Mi
Andy, Could you post the port egt numbers so I can see how well the distribution is in this Wilson modified INDY intake? Do you have port egt's for the Wilson modified M1? If so would you post those as well. While it not likely common knowledge, probably because no one takes the time to do it, if you really work at equalizing distribution it did seem to be worth about 15 HP on every engine we ever tested....I'm talking within 7*F port to port.

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#2378925 - 09/29/17 02:02 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
PorkyPig Offline
mopar

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 537
Loc: home in bed
Originally Posted By AndyF
Yes, the 470 with the 270 heads has that Comp grind in it. The other 470 with the 240 heads has the Ultradyne roller in it.

Are they both going back on the dyno?

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#2378940 - 09/29/17 02:43 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
No, the 470-240 combo is in my Duster now and has been converted to EFI. I don't think I need to put it back on the dyno since I know what it does.

The 470-270 combo will go back to the dyno to test the oil pan, vacuum pump and the Wilson Indy intake. Once I finish up that work I'll probably put that engine up for sale since I don't have any plans for it.

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#2379031 - 09/29/17 06:10 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
67mprfan Offline
super stock

Registered: 05/01/05
Posts: 782
Loc: ohio
Originally Posted By AndyF
No, the 470-240 combo is in my Duster now and has been converted to EFI. I don't think I need to put it back on the dyno since I know what it does.

The 470-270 combo will go back to the dyno to test the oil pan, vacuum pump and the Wilson Indy intake. Once I finish up that work I'll probably put that engine up for sale since I don't have any plans for it.



Can hardly wait a got a 67 Belvedere that waiting for a BIG Block
_________________________
71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 131.65 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 106.67 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it

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#2381820 - 10/04/17 01:03 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
Here is the external oil pump with the vacuum pump attached. The vacuum pump is driven off the back of the oil pump. I'm going to put it on the dyno tomorrow and we'll see what happens.


Attachments
DSC_1370 (Large).JPG



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#2381912 - 10/04/17 04:17 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Cab_Burge Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 29349
Loc: Bend,OR USA
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


Edited by Cab_Burge (10/04/17 04:18 PM)
_________________________
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

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#2381939 - 10/04/17 04:26 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Old School Online   content
super stock

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 1106
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
How would that ever fit in a car.....
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#2382023 - 10/04/17 05:22 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Cab_Burge]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
How are you getting oil pressure into the block?


#12 line from the top of the pump goes to a filter and then another #12 line from the filter goes into the block plate. The block plate is behind the pump in this picture.

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#2382024 - 10/04/17 05:24 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: Old School]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23013
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By Old School
How would that ever fit in a car.....


I guess guys figure it out. A lot of the serious NHRA guys run external oil pumps. I suppose anyone who knows how to put a dry sump system in a car can figure out how to put a belt drive oil pump in a car.

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