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#2282390 - 04/04/17 04:44 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: an8sec70cuda]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23338
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By an8sec70cuda
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I'm going to speculate a little further here.....

Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.

I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference.
The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.

The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.

My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system.

This is exactly why this test is misleading...b/c of the high dollar, very good flowing intake manifold used on the smaller heads. The bigger heads got saddled w/ a poor flowing intake (by comparison) and the numbers suffered. Not a true A to B test so we're left making assumptions.


The test wasn't misleading for me. I learned what I wanted to know and found the test to be very worthwhile. I shared the information that I learned so other people could also learn the same thing without having to invest their own money.

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#2282422 - 04/04/17 06:15 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
OUTLAWD Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1829
Loc: Plymouth, MI
Thanks for all the info during all the TF testing Andy!


Originally Posted By fast68plymouth


For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear.


This is where I am stuck...

Then is it worth it to get the TF intake if I already have a 4150 M1, and it will just snow-ball from there...
_________________________
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - FITech test rig...

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#2282496 - 04/04/17 08:09 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10409
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I wouldn't build a motor, or base any significant upgrades I had planned around a $250 intake manifold.

Decide where you want to end up after the upgrades, then the decision should get easier......and if you can put that m1 into use as part of the upgrade, great.

If you're planning on going towards the upper end of the 600-700 range, the 270's are the easier path...... provided the intake manifold associated with using those heads fits in with the rest of your plans.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2282609 - 04/04/17 10:58 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Andy: Will there be other pulls with the 279 heads on the 470?
Fwiw- hoping that's the case.

Thanks

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#2282619 - 04/04/17 11:12 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10409
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
One rule usually holds true when dyno testing...... the person paying the bill gets to test what they want.
The other thing is, there's never enough time to test everything you want.

I think if you went back to my original thread about the TF 240 heads, there are some tests Andy did with this same cam and the unmodified manifolds.

The 270 heads with the ootb 400-3 made 750-ish.
Take off say....... 15-20(??) for the dry sump....... call it 730-ish.

Edit: I went back and read through some of that first thread....... looks like with the ootb m1 and the 4500 carb the other motor made 685hp with this cam.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2282721 - 04/05/17 08:48 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13404
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
One rule usually holds true when dyno testing... there's never enough time to test everything you want.

Indeed.

I'm keeping that in mind for next time. work

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#2282727 - 04/05/17 09:07 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 502
Loc: Idaho
Thanks Andy. But, next time, schedule a 14 day dyno test. We'll tell you what to run and how to do it and what to print out for us. Then we can get all our desired information on your dollar.


Edited by LaRoy Engines (04/05/17 09:09 AM)

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#2282748 - 04/05/17 09:38 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
PETE@BESTMACHINE Offline


Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 392
Loc: SouthEast Michigan
The dyno test was very misleading, who would use a very modified intake on the smaller heads and use a unmodified intake on the bigger heads, with no dyno sheet to see were they make HP and TQ. How much crankcase vac ? Peak RPM etc. fast68plymouth is right on with is post. Its great to test things, but more info would be nice. Did you move the cam ?
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#2282775 - 04/05/17 10:43 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10409
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Indy EZ heads have been out for quite a while now.
One test I've always wanted to do was a comparison between the std port head and the MW head...... Using the same set of heads.

Baseline runs with the heads at std port size and a couple of intakes, then pull the heads, open to MW size, test with a couple of MW sized intakes.

As much as I'd like to do that test....... I never seem to have the time to build a motor for the test, then actually do the test.

So, I'd say Andy's testing at the very least gives people an idea of what kind of numbers are possible from the new TF heads.
It's unlikely they're going to build the exact same motor as he did anyway, so the results shouldn't be expected to be exactly the same....... But there's enough info so you(an experienced engine builder) should be able to have a pretty good idea of where you'll end up.

I could add testing the 240 vs 270 heads to my long list of things I'd love to try on the dyno........... But my advice is to not hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2282780 - 04/05/17 10:56 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 502
Loc: Idaho
I own a dyno and I've posted some of my dyno tests online. All the time I get, "You should have tested it this way......."

It cost money to run that dyno so I tell 'um, "Send money and I will test it that way!"

NEVER had a taker on that offer. They are willing to take free information and too damn cheap to pay for their wants. I test things my way for my desired information.

For free....you get what I offer and that is getting to be less and less.

Stick to your guns Andy, fast68plymouth is able to extrapolate information from your results. Let some of the others start using their brains like he does.


Edited by LaRoy Engines (04/05/17 10:58 AM)

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#2282801 - 04/05/17 11:24 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23338
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
One rule usually holds true when dyno testing...... the person paying the bill gets to test what they want.
The other thing is, there's never enough time to test everything you want.

I think if you went back to my original thread about the TF 240 heads, there are some tests Andy did with this same cam and the unmodified manifolds.

The 270 heads with the ootb 400-3 made 750-ish.
Take off say....... 15-20(??) for the dry sump....... call it 730-ish.

Edit: I went back and read through some of that first thread....... looks like with the ootb m1 and the 4500 carb the other motor made 685hp with this cam.


Correct. Some people are forgetting that I've already run 80+ dyno pulls on the 240 heads and have published all of that information. The 240 combo is now a very well developed platform so comparing the very best 240 pull to the first set of 270 pulls isn't going to give you the full picture.

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#2282805 - 04/05/17 11:31 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
4406forPOWER Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 1328
Loc: Nebraska
Thanks Andy for the info and dyno runs. Just curious on the 240 head motor. How far off on HP was the deep port TF intake vs the M1 manifolds? Trying to decide which intake to go with on a 240 head 470 build. tHANKS

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#2282880 - 04/05/17 01:28 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
gregsdart Offline
master

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 8104
Loc: Frostbitefalls (Rocky&Bullwink...
First off, I would like to offer my thanks for the posts Andy, always something to learn! It is easy for some of us key board dyno enthusiasts to say " why not do it this way", forgeting the time, money, and earning a living are all part of the equation, not to mention the experiance you have from past builds leads to tests you want to do may be tougher to relate to because of that. Thanks again.


Edited by gregsdart (04/05/17 01:31 PM)
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Educated at SHK U
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#2282889 - 04/05/17 01:48 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
viperblue72 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 1792
Loc: junction city oregon
I agree that without Andys test here, we would have absolutely nothing to go off of. So thank you Andy.
And fast68plymouth is right on his assumptions. Andy did some testing with other intakes and it's safe to say that the 270 heads with an ootb Intake are worth about 50hp in a similar application. Maybe more with a more aggressive build. And likely less with a more mild build.

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#2282919 - 04/05/17 02:35 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: 4406forPOWER]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23338
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By 4406forPOWER
Thanks Andy for the info and dyno runs. Just curious on the 240 head motor. How far off on HP was the deep port TF intake vs the M1 manifolds? Trying to decide which intake to go with on a 240 head 470 build. tHANKS


There is a bunch of intake testing info in the previous Trick Flow thread or you can take a look at the Car Craft article where I summarized a bunch of the testing: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/test-intake-manifolds-carburetors-440-stroker-search-ultimate-power/

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#2282921 - 04/05/17 02:43 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23338
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By RustyM
Andy: Will there be other pulls with the 279 heads on the 470?
Fwiw- hoping that's the case.

Thanks


As long as I have money and time I'll keep testing. I'm in the process f sending the Indy intake to Wilson for porting. Not sure if I'll also convert it to EFI at the same time or wait for a third round of testing to go EFI.

I might send the heads to Jesel for rocker arms. They haven't seen a set of 270 heads yet so I might be the guinea pig for them. If that deal works out then I'll send the heads to Dwayne also since both places are on the East Coast. If the deal with Jesel doesn't work out then I'll just keep running the T&D rockers.

In any case it will probably be a couple of months before I'm back on the dyno with this engine and these heads. My next project is to get the 514 back on the dyno with EFI and Q16.

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#2282952 - 04/05/17 03:59 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Thanks Andy:

Fwiw - You have helped me greatly , not only with the 470/trick flow data, but advice, your books and info all over the Mopar internet.

We bought the Trick Flow heads based on info found here at Moparts, Andy, Dwayne and others builders here working with the heads.
Been out of this game for over 30 years and have a build going that i'm pretty sure will make projected numbers because of those on these boards.

Does all of Andy's testing apply to my build?
Nope, not at all- but the math does.
As someone mentioned- extrapolating info, some here, some there- applying the math etc.
Then talking with others, being willing to listen, take advice from others who know how to apply the data- its all a blessing, huge education that- honestly, someone else paid for- Goes to Leroy Engines point.

So- this old man thanks all of you and will continue watching, reading and trying to soak up these classes someone else worked and paid for.

Personally will try to buy products and services where I can from those here that share in order to help everyone.

Thanks again,

Rusty

P.S. Now Andy, about that Trick flow intake on the 270 heads,,,, hahahahahahaha



Edited by RustyM (04/05/17 04:00 PM)

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#2282955 - 04/05/17 04:03 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
OUTLAWD Offline
top fuel

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 1829
Loc: Plymouth, MI
I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes

Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?
_________________________
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - FITech test rig...

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#2282989 - 04/05/17 05:38 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: OUTLAWD]
BradH Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 13404
Loc: Valhalla... eventually
Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes

Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?

C.I.?
C.R.?
Application?
Planning to switch to a Dominator-type carb?

All I can say at this point is a port-matched (if you can even get it that big) standard-port intake would be my last choice.

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#2282996 - 04/05/17 05:52 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: OUTLAWD]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23338
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
I realize this has yet to be tested, but for a RB block and the 270 head, what would the preferred intake be? I am running a 4150 now, so I would likely run an adapter on the Dommy intakes

Super Victor, port-matched TF, 440-3?


There are lots of choices for RB intakes with MW ports. For a race engine I'd probably start with the Super Victor but the Mopar 337 is also a very good intake. People have had good luck with the 440-2 over the years. Then there are the multi-carb intakes such as the cross ram, Indy X ram and Mod Man. There is even the Indy DP which is available with MW ports. I wouldn't run the dual plane on a race engine but it works nice on a street engine.

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