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#2280552 - 04/01/17 07:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10385
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote:
.......don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference.


I think common sense should be the driving decision maker here.
Engine builds geared more towards the milder street applications, or moderate compression bracket builds using stock stroke cranks might tend to favor the 240's, while the higher hp "rowdier" combos, especially those with stroker cranks, should be able to exploit the added runner size and flow of the 270's.

In other words, if you're looking for a 550-600hp 446, the 240's make more sense.
If you're looking at doing something like a 700-750hp 505 or 520, then the 270's will get you there easier.

For the 600-700hp crowd, the choice won't be as clear, and which one you select might come down to what other components/criteria are being considered(for example, does it all need to fit under a flat hood?).
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68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280810 - 04/02/17 10:01 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10385
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I thought I'd add a couple of other thoughts.......

I like doing my own heads, but obviously most people don't have the capabilities/equipment to do that.

So as nice as the TF heads are, if I were building something for myself where the TF heads would be a suitable option, I'd use the Indy EZ heads instead.
I can buy the EZ's for quite a bit less than the TF heads, and then do the prep and porting myself.


Attachments
image.jpg


_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281046 - 04/02/17 04:36 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
viperblue72 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: junction city oregon
So this is a direct comparison of the 240 vs 270 other than intakes being a Wilson ported vs a ootb 400-3? And
720hp for the 240s
754 for the 270s. ???
Did I get this right without reading back through 5 pages again and watching videos trying to screenshot the horsepower peaks.

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#2281065 - 04/02/17 05:02 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: viperblue72]
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 998
Loc: 1940 North Victory Boulevard ...
Originally Posted By viperblue72
So this is a direct comparison of the 240 vs 270 other than intakes being a Wilson ported vs a ootb 400-3? And
720hp for the 240s
754 for the 270s. ???
Did I get this right without reading back through 5 pages again and watching videos trying to screenshot the horsepower peaks.



A summary with compression ratios and cam specs would be nice.

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#2281066 - 04/02/17 05:03 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23312
Loc: Oregon
I'm going to call it 725 hp with the 240 heads and 750 hp with the 270 heads on this engine on this day.

The 240 head combo is fairly well maxed out at this point but I've just started working with the 270 heads so it isn't really a fair comparison. I can probably find another 25 to 50 hp with the 270 heads but it will take a while.

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#2281125 - 04/02/17 07:02 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
viperblue72 Offline
top fuel

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: junction city oregon
Thank you for sharing. I am trying to use this thread to decide which trick flow head to purchase. With my 512 build, 11.5 compression and a .650 lift camshaft or less, the 240 could possibly be the best bang for the buck.
Although the 270 may be slightly better hp wise, it may not be worth the extra $.

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#2281136 - 04/02/17 07:23 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Viperblue- we are building a similar engine here now.
Should be at dyno week after next if things go well.
Be happy to share those build specs and results with you if it's helpful.
This is a 512/ 240/ 631lift / M1 build.
Duration in 250 range- street/ strip build- slightly less compression than your planing 10:75 range here.
RB block.

Sorry for rabbit trailing the thread Andy.

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#2281142 - 04/02/17 07:28 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10385
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is).
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281150 - 04/02/17 07:41 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 998
Loc: 1940 North Victory Boulevard ...
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is).


And the flip-side would be: what engine would be BETTER with the smaller heads. It's probably not a stroked motor.
twocents

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#2281163 - 04/02/17 07:56 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
TonyS451 Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3901
Loc: Chicago, IL
Awesome of you to do this, Andy. What cam and compression are you running? This is the type of data that can save people a lot of time (and money) when it comes to putting together combinations and picking parts suitable to their budget and needs. Thanks for sharing, and hopefully TF is thanking you too...
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#2281203 - 04/02/17 08:42 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Well, Dwayne , got me wondering now if I should have gotten the 270 heads.
Hmm.
This will see more street time than strip so, should be fine.
All advice I found indicated the 240 heads were a good choice, hit our numbers , keep Intake velocity up etc.

Will know after we hit dyno .

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#2281324 - 04/03/17 12:03 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: @#$%&*!]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10385
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted By @#$%&*!
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
My gut feeling is, in a "bracket race" 512 application there would be more difference between the two heads...... But even if there wasn't...... After the motor has already been built, where are you going to find an extra 25hp for $400?(Which is what the difference in price between the 240's and 270's is).


And the flip-side would be: what engine would be BETTER with the smaller heads. It's probably not a stroked motor.
twocents


Well, I have seen many stroker builds on this site where the 240's would make more sense than the 270's.
In order to really exploit the added potential of the 270 heads, you're going to want to run a fairly substantial cam and have enough intake manifold to keep up......... then you need more gear and more stall to match.
That's just not what everyone is building. In fact, I'd say that might be 1/2 of what the people who call me are looking for. The other 1/2 could usually have their needs satisfied with stage 1 RPM heads....... only now with the 240's in the mix, they are an option that offers "more bang for the buck"........ but in many cases, even those would be a bit of overkill.

It's no different than what the BBC guys have had for years. The largest runner volume head offered by the various suppliers isn't the best choice for every application.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281325 - 04/03/17 12:05 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10385
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Originally Posted By RustyM
Well, Dwayne , got me wondering now if I should have gotten the 270 heads.
Hmm.
This will see more street time than strip so, should be fine.
All advice I found indicated the 240 heads were a good choice, hit our numbers , keep Intake velocity up etc.

Will know after we hit dyno .


For the numbers you said were the target, the 240's will easily get you there.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281443 - 04/03/17 09:49 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Yep.
So many ways to get there and, seeing hp that can still be made- 10 here, 25 there- it's just too easy to break build discipline and end up with a product unlike ones stated goals.
The math ( if I have done it correctly ) say I will hit my numbers and engine meet stated needs.
Ahh, but the lure of more!
Grin

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#2281445 - 04/03/17 09:54 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Clanton Online   content
master

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 3231
Loc: northern,Ohio,USA
What kind of avg air speed in the port would a person look for planning a build?
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#2281481 - 04/03/17 10:44 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10385
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I'm going to speculate a little further here.....

Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.

I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference.
The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.

The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.

My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2281517 - 04/03/17 11:42 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Logical

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#2281828 - 04/03/17 06:52 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
dartman366 Offline


Registered: 01/18/04
Posts: 12918
Loc: Mt. Vernon, Ohio
So far from what I have read I believe the 240"s that I put on my low deck 512 bracket motor will do just fine for what I want and there is potential there to improve later down the road, I am not out to scorch the earth, just run consistant mid to upper 9's and not have to wring the crap out of it to get there. up
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#2282268 - 04/04/17 01:16 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: fast68plymouth]
an8sec70cuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 10165
Loc: Marion, South Carolina [><]
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I'm going to speculate a little further here.....

Andy is saying it's a 25hp difference for how he tested the heads, but I feel that's probably not representative of how the heads would get used by "most" people........ Meaning, I don't foresee many builds using the 240 heads being topped by an intake manifold with what's likely over $1000 worth of labor done to it.

I'm thinking on a typical "bracket race" 505" type build, where both the 240 and 270 combo would be run with what is more the norm...... A port matched single plane...... That there would be more like 50hp difference.
The 240's using something like a TF intake with a 950-ish 4150 carb, and the 270's running a 440-3 with a 1050 4500 carb.

The added power comes from not only the bigger heads, but also the bigger intake manifold.

My 50hp guesstimate makes the assumption that what the heads got put on would have enough cam, compression, exhaust to take advantage of the larger induction system.

This is exactly why this test is misleading...b/c of the high dollar, very good flowing intake manifold used on the smaller heads. The bigger heads got saddled w/ a poor flowing intake (by comparison) and the numbers suffered. Not a true A to B test so we're left making assumptions.
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#2282277 - 04/04/17 01:37 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
4406forPOWER Offline
pro stock

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 1328
Loc: Nebraska
Since TF is not offering a max wedge port intake. I would love to see a comparison between the 2 heads using the Trick Flow intake. Also is there any left in the 240 head with some cleaning up? Or is that just a waste of time?


Edited by 4406forPOWER (04/04/17 01:39 PM)

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