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#2279516 - 03/31/17 10:50 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: PETE@BESTMACHINE]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23031
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By PETE@BESTMACHINE
Would be nice to see actual dyno sheets to back up all these claims of horse power changes. Just saying


Who prints dyno sheets anymore Pete? I'm all digital these days.

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#2279519 - 03/31/17 10:52 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23031
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By RustyM
Please forgive a dumb question but, I won't know if I don't ask:
How does the pan vacuum make more power?
Better ring sealing?
Oil staying away from crank journals?

Thanks


Ring seal probably, maybe a little bit from reduced windage. This engine has an 043 top ring with lateral gas ports so pan vacuum probably helps the ring seal and maybe reduces flutter. Can't say I know for sure but more vacuum does make more power.

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#2279524 - 03/31/17 10:59 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: HotRodDave]
justinp61 Offline
master

Registered: 10/01/03
Posts: 9084
Loc: W. Kentucky
Originally Posted By HotRodDave
I kind of like having a good port necked down a smidge at the opening so I can match it exactly to my heads, it makes the manifold a little more flexible as to what it will work with.


I'm with Dave on this one. I'd rather the ports on the intake be a little small so I can match them to my heads.

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#2279590 - 03/31/17 12:45 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
PETE@BESTMACHINE Offline


Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 389
Loc: SouthEast Michigan
A dyno sheet would back up your claims and keeps everyone honest. You take a picture of the screen with data on it after a pull with your smart phone IT guy and post it.


Attachments
565 dyno sheet.JPG


_________________________
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#2279631 - 03/31/17 01:39 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23031
Loc: Oregon
The data is on the screen in the video. Watch the video and you can see the numbers.

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#2279648 - 03/31/17 02:09 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
als499 Offline
mopar

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Zumbrota,MN
Andy, are you running it with the 270cc heads today? Thanks!
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#2279649 - 03/31/17 02:11 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!

Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 974
Loc: 1940 North Victory Boulevard ...
Originally Posted By AndyF
The data is on the screen in the video. Watch the video and you can see the numbers.


up


Attachments
AF 470.jpg



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#2279703 - 03/31/17 03:33 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: als499]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23031
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By als499
Andy, are you running it with the 270cc heads today? Thanks!


Yep, we changed over to the 270 heads on the dyno and made some pulls. Getting close to 760 hp even with the as cast Indy intake. This engine would probably make 775 or 780 hp if I had a really good intake manifold.

The oil filter is super clean after every run so that is good news. The block must not be moving around too much even though we are getting up there in power. There doesn't appear to be any metal chips at all in the filters so we just keep making pulls.

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#2279714 - 03/31/17 03:48 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
krautrock Offline
pro stock

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 1415
Loc: central texas
so you're up about 45-50 hp?

did the Torque peak go up?

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#2279767 - 03/31/17 05:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10221
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
From the old thread:

Quote:
High level summary is that it makes 700 hp with a Trick Flow intake and a QF carb. With the Wilson intake and a Dominator it makes about 720 hp.


That was 10.5cr, wet sump, TF 240 heads.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2279953 - 03/31/17 08:58 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Would love to see that exact set up repeated Dwayne , but with the 270 heads and Trick Flow Intake, and then other intakes.

I do think it helpful Andy did a baseline set of pulls with the 250 heads since he changed from wet to dry dump.

Andy- Did you stay with the 10.5 compression of did you bump it up?
I seem to remember a post about bumping compression a bit- but may be mistaken.

Also wondering what manifold vacuum and CFM flow differences are noted as due to head change.

I have friends here very close to pulling the trigger on the 270 heads , however, as Dwayne mentioned in one of the threads- the 270 heads might not be the value the 240's are.
Thus- All my questions.

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#2279980 - 03/31/17 09:31 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10221
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
Quote:
I have friends here very close to pulling the trigger on the 270 heads , however, as Dwayne mentioned in one of the threads- the 270 heads might not be the value the 240's are.


Definitely not what I said, or implied.

What I did say was that I didn't feel the 270's were going to have as much of an impact on the MW head market as the 240's have had on the std port market.

They are still a very good value.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280005 - 03/31/17 10:00 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Oops- my mistake Dwayne- please forgive.
Value was certainly not mentioned or implied and a poor choice on my part.

The conversations here revolve around how much more they flow than the 240 and, intake selections.

Thus- I misspoke ,
Embarrassing to say the least.

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#2280025 - 03/31/17 10:25 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: RustyM]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23031
Loc: Oregon
The compression ratio ended up higher in this short block than in the first engine due to a little gotcha. I had ordered new pistons for my first block and assumed they would work in the second block but it turned out that the 2nd block had been surfaced a fair amount previously. So we had to shave the pistons down a little bit and some of the dish volume went away.

I haven't downloaded all of the data yet from the 270 tests. No doubt we picked up some power but not a ton. The interesting thing is that the 270 heads seem to work better in terms of BSFC and VE. Could be due to the surface finish in the 270 heads since it is much smoother than the big step over that TF uses in the 240 head.

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#2280163 - 04/01/17 07:10 AM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
Blusmbl Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7328
Loc: Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted By AndyF
Ring seal probably, maybe a little bit from reduced windage. This engine has an 043 top ring with lateral gas ports so pan vacuum probably helps the ring seal and maybe reduces flutter. Can't say I know for sure but more vacuum does make more power.


Pumping loss work should be lower with a vacuum in the crankcase, that is likely where the power is coming from. It is probably making about the same indicated power, but the brake horsepower is up from the lower pumping losses.
_________________________
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*looking for driver quality, BB 67-70 B-body convertible*

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#2280390 - 04/01/17 01:23 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10221
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
I can't imagine what would be holding someone back from ordering either the TF 240 or 270 heads if they were building a combo where this is the type of head that will get the job done for them.

They aren't going to be substitute for a B1 head, or some of the bigger Indy heads, and probably aren't the best choice for a high cr big cube bracket motor where someone is looking to make 800hp+.

But if you were looking at "comparable" heads, and had these on your list of possibilities............ I can't see any reason not to pull the trigger.

Like the 240's, these heads are going to be very hard to beat from a power vs cost vs build quality standpoint.

There are other heads that will make just as much power(or more), especially if the motor is bigger and the combo is "racier", but it's going to cost more to get into them.
_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280406 - 04/01/17 01:58 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
AndyF Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 23031
Loc: Oregon
Closest comparable head is probably the Indy EZ-1 or perhaps the EZ-295 since it is CNC ported. I think the 295 head costs a little more and comes with 0.600 springs and steel retainers. The 270 head comes with 0.700 roller springs and Ti retainers. One of the Indy dealers can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd say the consensus is that TF build quality is better than Indy build quality but once again engine builders who have experience with both can weigh in on that.

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#2280426 - 04/01/17 02:45 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
fast68plymouth Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 10221
Loc: So. Burlington, Vt.
The TF 270 heads with roller springs and Ti retainers are $2600/pr.

I've had 4 sets of the 240 heads in the shop so far, and the overall fit and finish was very consistent.
They all had the guide clearance quite a bit tighter than what I prefer, and the seals are on super tight, so you can't get them off(or at least I don't seem to be able to) without ruining them.
So, IMO, the "prep" for the TF heads is to disassemble, hone guides, clean everything, verify spring pressures and installed heights, reassemble with new seals.
The roller springs that come on the TF heads(TFS-16318) are almost $340...... So you're getting pretty good parts there.

If you can buy the EZ295 for the same price as the TF 270, it comes with flat tappet cam single springs, steel retainers, 7 deg stamped locks, and umbrella seals.
If you buy the upgrades from Indy to get the heads so they are "similarly equipped"(k-950 springs, Ti retainers, 10deg locks, viton seals)to the TF 270's, it's going to add about $500 to the cost.
Then, if you really want them to perform like they should, the valve seats should be recut, valves back cut, and the bowls and chambers blended to the seats.
Then, again you have cleaning, checking spring pressures, installed heights, assembly, etc......... All of which adds up to another $500.
If you wanted spring cups, it adds another $100, and you'll also need the oil line kit for $55.

While i feel those two heads are pretty comparable, the place where the TF head really starts to look attractive is....... The price.

_________________________
68 Plymouth Satellite, 383, stock 906's, 3550lbs, 11.18 @ 123, 1.51 60' PRH is a Comp Cams W/D......competitive pricing on entire line. Custom cams available. ** dealer for Indy Cylinder Heads **

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#2280440 - 04/01/17 03:14 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
RustyM Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
Agree and, again sorry for improper usage of terms in relation to your statements.
Lots of Indy max wedge down here and guys waiting to see if the 270 heads will make similar hp , similar curves in the 650- 720 hp range.

My statement to them has been similar to yours.
The 240 heads will meet most of those needs, 270 surely better.
Comparing " apples to apples " - the Trick flows seem the best bang for the buck in this range,
As yet, don't know if the 270 heads make X more power and the costs per hp for that difference.

If that made any sense.

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#2280441 - 04/01/17 03:19 PM Re: 470 dry sump engine on the dyno [Re: AndyF]
dwayne welder Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 182
Loc: warren, mich.
Trick Flow uses Pac Racing Springs and parts.

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