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Re: additional cooling [Re: Supercuda] #2274923
03/23/17 06:20 PM
03/23/17 06:20 PM
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Crizila Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Supercuda
http://www.qsl.net/wd4ngb/markviii.htm

With dimensions and p/n's.
Thanks a lot for this info. bow


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Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2275515
03/24/17 06:50 PM
03/24/17 06:50 PM
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Crizila Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Crizila
Originally Posted By John_Kunkel
Originally Posted By Crizila
Sooo, it appears that my existing system will hold the engine temp (@ idle rpm with no load )at around 190 - 215*.


Warmer weather will probably bring higher temps. You might consider changing your coolant to the Evans Coolant so the higher temps don't build dangerous system pressures.

http://www.evanscoolant.com/vehicle-types/hot-rods-muscle-cars/
Looking at that stuff John. Presently running a 10 lb cap with 60 / 40 mix - water/ glycol. My next step is changing the crank pulley from my existing 5.750 aluminum pulley to a stock 7.25 OEM pulley. This should speed up the pump about 200 RPM. The additional flow through the rad might just be enough. Step in the right direction anyway. Gonna do this before I install a remote trans cooler.
Ok, ran the car today in the garage at idle with the larger crank pulley and no stat. Dropped the temps by at least 10 degree's. I can now get the temp to cycle off the fan on/off setting ( between 180 - 190 ). As soon as it warms up outside, I will drive it at speed (65+ ) with the A/C on and check it that way. If it is good with ambient temps in the 90's, I may not have to use a remote trans cooler.


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Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2275865
03/25/17 11:10 AM
03/25/17 11:10 AM
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I still think, if you insist on no stat, you should at least put in a re-stricter to slow the flow through the rad some.
You can play with it to dial in the ideal opening size.


I have mechanical Aptitude.
I can screw up anything.
Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2275896
03/25/17 12:02 PM
03/25/17 12:02 PM
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I think that running without a thermostat or with a restrictor only are both poor ideas for any car that is anything more than a dedicated trailer only race car.

Just because racers do something it does not mean it is a good thing, especially when you do not know why they do it.

Why do racers run without a thermostat or with just a restrictor?

It sure ain't because they are overheating with a thermostat, they don't run long enough.

It's because the restriction of the thermostat, coupled with high rpm's were blowing hoses and such loose. It's a crutch to fix a unique issue.

Much like the old wives tale about needing a thermostat so the coolant has time to get the heat out of the block is false. Whomever says this doesn't know about heat transfer. The number one factor, by far, in heat transfer is the differential between the high and low temps involved. Not the time in contact.

The bigger the difference in temp between the block/heads and the coolant the quicker the heat transfers. This is something that is not commonly thought about, the same it true about the difference in temperature between the coolant and the AIR going thru the radiator.

Turbulence in the coolant can increase the efficiency of the heat transfer. Best way to create turbulence in our applications is to increase flow, but not to increase it so much that the pump cavitates. If you were to compare an intercooler to a radiator (both designed to remove heat from a "fluid") you will see that intercoolers use internal devices to create turbulence thru the intercooler, this increases efficiency. Radiators don't generally do that because you can increase flow without detriment unlike in an intercooler where too much flow (boost) can cause all sorts of interesting things to happen.

As to the OP's specific situation, a 10 degree drop by swapping the pulleys is fairly large. You are probably ok now. If you need a bit more I would suggest a high flow pump with an anticavitation impeller, or at least putting an anti-cavitation plate on your stock pump.


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They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2276355
03/26/17 09:17 AM
03/26/17 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted By Crizila
Ok, ran the car today in the garage at idle with the larger crank pulley and no stat. Dropped the temps by at least 10 degree's. I can now get the temp to cycle off the fan on/off setting ( between 180 - 190 ). As soon as it warms up outside, I will drive it at speed (65+ ) with the A/C on and check it that way. If it is good with ambient temps in the 90's, I may not have to use a remote trans cooler.

what were your original pulley sizes ? do you know what the factory sizes were for your engine ? as was said, 10 degrees is a sizeable drop.
beer

Re: additional cooling [Re: Supercuda] #2276420
03/26/17 12:24 PM
03/26/17 12:24 PM
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Crizila Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Supercuda
I think that running without a thermostat or with a restrictor only are both poor ideas for any car that is anything more than a dedicated trailer only race car.

Just because racers do something it does not mean it is a good thing, especially when you do not know why they do it.

Why do racers run without a thermostat or with just a restrictor?

It sure ain't because they are overheating with a thermostat, they don't run long enough.

It's because the restriction of the thermostat, coupled with high rpm's were blowing hoses and such loose. It's a crutch to fix a unique issue.

Much like the old wives tale about needing a thermostat so the coolant has time to get the heat out of the block is false. Whomever says this doesn't know about heat transfer. The number one factor, by far, in heat transfer is the differential between the high and low temps involved. Not the time in contact.

The bigger the difference in temp between the block/heads and the coolant the quicker the heat transfers. This is something that is not commonly thought about, the same it true about the difference in temperature between the coolant and the AIR going thru the radiator.

Turbulence in the coolant can increase the efficiency of the heat transfer. Best way to create turbulence in our applications is to increase flow, but not to increase it so much that the pump cavitates. If you were to compare an intercooler to a radiator (both designed to remove heat from a "fluid") you will see that intercoolers use internal devices to create turbulence thru the intercooler, this increases efficiency. Radiators don't generally do that because you can increase flow without detriment unlike in an intercooler where too much flow (boost) can cause all sorts of interesting things to happen.

As to the OP's specific situation, a 10 degree drop by swapping the pulleys is fairly large. You are probably ok now. If you need a bit more I would suggest a high flow pump with an anticavitation impeller, or at least putting an anti-cavitation plate on your stock pump.

Interesting stuff. Thanks. Not sure I understand it all. I would prefer to run a stat, but before I made the pulley change, I was not able to run on a 180 stat. The temp would just blow right by it, so the stat would just run wide open all the time and not regulate anything. In that case, it became nothing more than a flow restriction ( in my simple mind), so I removed it. Seemed to help with temps slightly lower without it, and I attributed it to better flow through the rad ( coolant passed through it more often in a given time period ). BTW,I have been trying to read temps ( inferred temp gun ) in the same spot all the time( intake manifold right next to the temp gage sender and thermostat housing ) for repeatability purposes. Without a stat, I do see wild swings ( 160 to 215 depending on engine load and ambient temps. I know, not good.
With the pulley change (5.75" aluminum pulley to 7.25" OEM steel pulley) I will probably be putting a 180 stat back in and give it a shot.
Attached pic is of the air deflector I fabbed to try and direct more air from the bottom 1/4 of the grill opening to the rad. This change will only work at speed of course - if it works at all - doubt I will be able to measure it, but can't hurt.
Hammer away Supercuda! I really do appreciate your input. wave


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Re: additional cooling [Re: moparx] #2276424
03/26/17 12:30 PM
03/26/17 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted By moparx
Originally Posted By Crizila
Ok, ran the car today in the garage at idle with the larger crank pulley and no stat. Dropped the temps by at least 10 degree's. I can now get the temp to cycle off the fan on/off setting ( between 180 - 190 ). As soon as it warms up outside, I will drive it at speed (65+ ) with the A/C on and check it that way. If it is good with ambient temps in the 90's, I may not have to use a remote trans cooler.

what were your original pulley sizes ? do you know what the factory sizes were for your engine ? as was said, 10 degrees is a sizeable drop.
beer
I believe the factory size crank pulley for my engine was what I am running now ( 7.25"). The aluminum pulley I was running was 5.75" diameter. Think that equates to about a 200 rpm pump speed change. BTW, I do have a modified pump ( added an anti-cavitation plat to the impellers ) that I haven't tried yet.


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Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2276425
03/26/17 12:31 PM
03/26/17 12:31 PM
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Crizila Offline OP
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Pic I forgot to add of grill deflector.

grill deflector.jpg
Last edited by Crizila; 03/26/17 12:32 PM.

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Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2276427
03/26/17 12:32 PM
03/26/17 12:32 PM
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Oh, I wasn't trying to hammer, just inform.

the thermostat's job is to regulate minimum temperature, which as you've noticed can vary wildly without the thermostat in. I think you are on to it right now anyway.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2276948
03/27/17 02:12 AM
03/27/17 02:12 AM
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If you had that large of space below the rad that allowed air to bypass going through the rad, that you have closed off, it should make a huge difference in the amount of air flowing through the rad at any speed. That should help a bunch in the hot weather. Gene

Re: additional cooling [Re: poorboy] #2277084
03/27/17 12:13 PM
03/27/17 12:13 PM
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Crizila Offline OP
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Originally Posted By poorboy
If you had that large of space below the rad that allowed air to bypass going through the rad, that you have closed off, it should make a huge difference in the amount of air flowing through the rad at any speed. That should help a bunch in the hot weather. Gene
Hope so Gene. The car has a very long grill opening. Wish I could have used it all for the rad, but as the pic shows, the rack is in the way.


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Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2277094
03/27/17 12:23 PM
03/27/17 12:23 PM
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moparx Offline
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i'll take a pic of an original shell and that ducting in a little while and post later. as it was positioned, the factory straight axle was in the way, similar to your [or any, really] front suspension.
beer

Re: additional cooling [Re: moparx] #2277269
03/27/17 05:33 PM
03/27/17 05:33 PM
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here are a couple of shots of my humpback grille & shell. obviously, the headlights are not in the stock location. biggrin however, the radiator ducting is still [mostly] there. this was used with the flat six and the 4 blade fan. i'm guessing the top speed was 60 [?] mph, but as it was a delivery vehicle, it probably spent most of it's life idling.
beer

P3270009.JPGP3270011.JPGP3270012.JPGP3270010.JPG
Re: additional cooling [Re: moparx] #2277280
03/27/17 06:08 PM
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Thats a cool thing. (no pun intended) ! smile

Re: additional cooling [Re: moparx] #2277471
03/28/17 12:46 AM
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Crizila Offline OP
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Wow! That's pretty close to how my air deflector looks. Got a couple hundred mile trip to go on this week end, ( should be in the low 80's ) so I will see how it works at speed. Thanks for the post.


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Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2282116
04/04/17 11:49 AM
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john, how did your trip go ? any cooling improvements ?
beer

Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2282221
04/04/17 02:14 PM
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Quote:
My next step is changing the crank pulley from my existing 5.750 aluminum pulley to a stock 7.25 OEM pulley.


I don't know where you got your pulleys but CVF Racing offers a high flow pulley. I believe it's 6.4" diameter.(if you want to go back to an aluminum pulley) Not as large as the one you're trying now though.

https://www.cvfracing.com/chrysler-small-block-pulleys-s/44.htm

I've read that some electric fans can be a restriction to air flow at cruising speeds.(while they are running) I wonder if hooking the fan up to a toggle switch and shutting it off while on the highway would be a good test to see if the temps stay lower. shruggy

Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2282238
04/04/17 02:49 PM
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Not real sure that setup is "high flow".

If you read the specs the water pump and crank pulleys as the same diameter, which means 1:1.

Stick with stock.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila] #2282248
04/04/17 02:56 PM
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Yah, "high flow" is their description. It's high flow compared to their under drive pulley that usually comes in the kit. I was just trying to give him an option since all of his other pulleys are aluminum. If the problem ends up being the fan, maybe the 6.4" pulley would work?

Re: additional cooling [Re: moparx] #2282417
04/04/17 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted By moparx
john, how did your trip go ? any cooling improvements ?
beer
The trip turned in to a low 60's temp with possible rain, so we took the wife's 79 300 instead of my 33 - and it did rain on the way home - so I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Weather here has been goofy lately. realcrazy


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