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#2272312 - 03/19/17 11:15 AM additional cooling
Crizila Offline
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Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 7362
Loc: Az
My existing cooling system becomes marginal in hot weather. I have room below my existing rad ( pic )to run another small rad ( like a trans cooler ). Any suggestions on how well it would work and how to plumb it in to my existing system? Thanks, John


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additional cooling.jpg


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#2272346 - 03/19/17 12:14 PM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
moparx Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 7269
Loc: north of coder
john, out of curiosity, at the lower end of your grille shell, do you have a metal "scoop" like the factory shell had ? this aids airflow to not bypass the radiator by going under the car if the "scoop" was not there. just a thought. also, please refresh me on your fan setup. as my old man was fond of saying, : "he [i] don't know he [i] left the house yet !"........ "oldtimers" ya know.....
beer
upon looking at your pic, try adding a "scoop" from the lower edge of your shell up to your front crossmember, closing that area, forcing more air to flow through your radiator. see, i looked and didn't see ! i hate when i do that..... shruggy


Edited by moparx (03/19/17 12:19 PM)

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#2272503 - 03/19/17 05:18 PM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Mike P Offline
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Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1299
Loc: AZ
Cooling a vehicle in the AZ summers can be a challenge.......I moved out here 30 years ago and it's been a learning curve ever since.

As far as a secondary radiator......I did that once (52 Ford F6....big truck with a lot of under under hood room)I installed a complete small radiator with it's own cooling fan. It was a colossal waste of time! the only thing the second radiator did was cause it to take a little longer to get to the same temperature it got to before.

It's really kind of hard to make any suggestions without knowing what you're currently working with. What temperature does it run at in the summer. When does the heating occur; in town or going down the highway. Have you verified that the temperature the gauge is showing is accurate (I've had gauges read as much as 30 degrees off).

It would also help to know what type of radiator, number of tubes and with width of them. What kind of fan and do you have a shroud. What is the temperature range of the thermostat.

Pictures would help too.
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#2272691 - 03/19/17 10:35 PM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
poorboy Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5704
Loc: Freeport IL USA
I agree that an additional radiator will probably only add a little time to how long it takes to reach the high temp you are reaching. Your going to be pretty limited as to how you can add another radiator and pass enough air through it to make much difference. If you could add another cooling feature, I'd see if you can plumb it as a reserve to tap into when you need it. Adding a couple of quarts of cool coolant to hot system will bring down the temps for a while, maybe long enough, if your running close to range.

How hot is it getting? 210-220 is not out of an allowable temp range under a 16 lbs pressurized system. Gene

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#2272756 - 03/20/17 12:46 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Crizila Offline
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Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 7362
Loc: Az
Radiator is a 22.5 tall 2 core aluminum rad to fit a 32 Ford chopped grill shell. Trans cooler in the bottom tank. Total cooling system capacity = 3.5 gal ( not including the heater core ). Fan is a Spal 16" electric fan = 1,604 cfm bolted directly to the rad ( no room for a shroud )- pic. I haven't been running a stat to try to improve flow through the rad ( less restriction ). Not sure if running without a stat is a good thing or not?? Fan controller is set to go on at around 185 / 190. With ambient temps in the mid / upper 70's, temps seem to hold around 190 - 200 both at idle and cruise ( 60 - 65 mph). Running a 3.55 gear so cruise a 65 = about 3,000 engine rpm. Any kind of load ( long hill, etc ) and the temp starts to climb. Seen it as high as 212. Haven't run it at 80 / 90 degree ambient temps yet, so ..... don't know what will happen temp wise? Also haven't run the A/C yet?? Think the gauge is accurate. Sender is located right next to the stat housing. Agree with some of what's been said so far on this thread. Hope this answers some of your questions.


Attachments
33 front view.jpg

chassis1.jpg

rad clearance2.jpg

rad mods1.jpg


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#2272824 - 03/20/17 07:20 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
moparx Offline
master

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 7269
Loc: north of coder
after seeing the pic of your radiator/fan combination, i would look into a fan setup from a late model ?? that would incorporate a shroud covering the whole core. also, most factory fan setups are a two speed, having the high speed kick on whenever the ac is requested. i think that would go a long way toward easing your mind about the 80-90*temp/ac use issue. although the aftermarket fan manufacturers claim great things about their products, i'm not a "fan" of them [pun intended biggrin], preferring factory setups instead. you may also consider a separate transmission cooler [with fan] to eliminate that heat source from contributing to the issue.
beer

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#2272848 - 03/20/17 08:43 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Mike P Offline
pro stock

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 1299
Loc: AZ
Nice build! Start with the simple things first.

The first thing I would do is buy or borrow a temperature gun.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=temperature+gun&_sop=12

You need to verify what the temperature actually is…….you don’t want to spend a bunch of time, money and aggravation hunting for a problem that turns out to be an inaccurate temperature gauge (over the years I’ve run into this three times so it does happen). You want to check the temperature at the thermostat housing to see what the temp of the coolant coming out of the engine actually is.

The next step is to get a thermostat in the engine. Besides its function of quickly bringing the engine up to operating temperature, the thermostats’ most important function is to act as a restriction in the cooling system. That restriction is vital in keeping the coolant in the radiator long enough to transfer heat from the coolant to the outside air.

Thinking on what is an ideal operating temperature has changed considerably over the years. In the old days we felt that a car was running hot when the temp gauge hit 200 degrees. For most modern engines that could actually be considered on the cool side. Personally I’m perfectly happy seeing any of my cars run in the 190-210 range and can even live with 220-230 if I can’t get it any better. Keep in mind that the coolant mix (anti-freeze and water) will raise the boiling point of the coolant and the radiator cap further raises the boiling by 3 degrees for every pound of pressure added to the cooling system. As long as your cooling system is in good shape (hoses, clamps, radiator etc) running a 16 pound radiator cap is no big deal.


That being said personally I would start with a 190 degree thermostat and feel perfectly comfortable seeing an operating range in the 190-220 degree area.

If you feel that that is too high then your alternatives boil down to increasing coolant capacity or increasing air flow thru the radiator.


Increasing coolant capacity means a radiator with a more coolant tube surface area. Brass/copper actually transfers heat more efficiently than aluminum. The problem is that the brass/copper is relatively weak limiting the size the tubes to a small size. Cooling capacity was added to these radiators by adding more rows of tubes (i.e. 2, 3 or even 4 row radiators). Aluminum is a more rigid material than brass/copper and because of this the tubes can be made much wider exposing more surface area and allowing a more efficient radiator. The reason I bring this up is that many aluminum radiator companies have started producing radiators with 3 and even 4 rows of tubes. The problem is the tubes are much smaller (usually 3/8”). If you are currently using a 2 row radiator with 1” tubes(2" worth of surface area), going to a radiator with 3 or 4 rows may actually end up decreasing the cooling capacity rather than increasing it. (A 4 radiator with 4 3/8" tubes actually only gives you the equivalent of 1 1/2 inches worth of tubes). Basically I don’t think you are going to get much more coolant capacity than you already have.

Increasing the airflow thru the radiator is also going to be problematic with your space limitations. Most of the aftermarket electric fans just do not move a huge volume of air. The problem is 2 fold…keeping the fan slim means limiting the pitch of the blades (less air flow) and thin motor (less power/speed). Using a bigger more efficient fan to the front of the radiator might be an option but I suspect you run into space issues there too. moparx is absolutely correct about the factory fans, if you can fit one in.

One final option is to slow the engine down. 3.55 gears are fun, but the faster the engine is turning the more heat it’s producing. A few years ago I gave my wife a car I had built several years before as my DD. She doesn’t drive a stick, so I pulled the overdrive 4 speed out and installed a non-overdrive automatic……operating temperature went up 10 degrees. Just say’n.


Sorry about being so long winded.


Edited by Mike P (03/21/17 06:06 AM)
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#2272860 - 03/20/17 09:12 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Supercuda Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 11316
Loc: West Texas
Airflow thru the radiator at 65 mph is driven by road speed not the fan, unless the fan is blocking airflow itself.

Generally speaking temperature issues at highway speeds are water flow issues not airflow, but that assumes a factory designed cooling system as well.

I see you have aftermarket pulleys, that may be affecting the water flow. Looking at the pulleys they look like might be underdriving the water pump. If you happen to have a stock set of pulleys you might swap them in and see if that clears it up.

How many vanes on the water pump impeller? impeller count and pulley ratios are interdependant, if you run non-AC pulleys with an AC water pump you run into issues like you have. The non-AC pump was more impeller vanes so it runs ate a lower speed. AC pumps have less vanes and run at a higher speed to move the water.

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#2272880 - 03/20/17 09:49 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Old Ray Offline
member

Registered: 09/20/16
Posts: 38
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Had 454 '37 ford, have 460 f1, know about trying to cool.

160 degree stat, remote trans cooler, 200 is not hot.

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#2272903 - 03/20/17 10:17 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Crizila Offline
master

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 7362
Loc: Az
Thanks for all the reply's!! Lots of good info for me to chew on / try. Increasing coolant capacity and / or air flow really helps put it in perspective for me. I will start by verifying my existing gauge. Agree on the fan thing. I will keep looking for a factory unit that will fit my application. I will put a stat back in it too see if that helps. I do see wide temp swings without a stat ( temp can drop down to as low as 150 with cooler ambient temps ). Separate trans cooler is another option. I am running an 8 blade A/C pump and I think the pulleys ( although after market ) are the factory diameter. I will verify again on that. Thanks again for everyone's input.
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#2273418 - 03/20/17 10:51 PM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
rowin4 Offline
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Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 5571
Loc: gulfport, ms, west mi
Will increasing capacity, not the core size help or is it a temporary fix until the extra liquid heats up?
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#2273473 - 03/21/17 12:09 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Crizila Offline
master

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 7362
Loc: Az
Ran a few more tests today - all at idle in neutral. Used an infrared thermometer and verified the temp gauge. Temp was measured right next to the temp gauge sender in the intake manifold and the #'s were within about 5 degrees. I'm calling that accurate. Without a stat, temp seems to level off at about 195*. Installed a 180 stat and the temp came up to 180 quicker, but seemed to level off a little higher than without a stat at around 200*. I'm thinking that it is due to the flow restriction caused by the stat? Anyway, the temp went right on by the 180 stat. After the temp leveled off at around 200, I kicked on the A/C. This added about 10 - 15 degrees and the temp leveled off at about 215. Ambient temp in the garage was in the upper 70's. Sooo, it appears that my existing system will hold the engine temp (@ idle rpm with no load )at around 190 - 215*. I think my next move is to install a separate trans cooler.
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#2273474 - 03/21/17 12:11 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: rowin4]
Crizila Offline
master

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 7362
Loc: Az
Originally Posted By rowin4
Will increasing capacity, not the core size help or is it a temporary fix until the extra liquid heats up?
Good question - for which I do not have a good answer. work
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#2273548 - 03/21/17 08:38 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
moparx Offline
master

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 7269
Loc: north of coder
Originally Posted By Crizila
Originally Posted By rowin4
Will increasing capacity, not the core size help or is it a temporary fix until the extra liquid heats up?
Good question - for which I do not have a good answer. work

i will go out on a limb here [with chainsaw in hand] and say this will just delay the inevitable, unless it will be a sizeable increase. i think the answer to the issue is [in no particular order] water flow, increased air flow from the fan system, removing excess heat from the transmission cooler, and possibly removing excess heat from the engine compartment, in which to do this, i don't have any suggestions, other than the basic hood louvers or running without hood sides. as the water temperature is the hottest coming in through the upper hose, the fan should be directing a bunch of airflow in that location. one example of this was the introduction of a water pump riser for the "brand "x" small block. this was a good fix [at the time before electric fans] when it was discovered the engines sat drastically lower in the chassis than the original inline sixes, or flatheads, causing the water pump driven fans to, therefore, suck the air through the lower part of the radiator, not cooling the upper, hottest, part of the system.all OEM's position mechanical fans at the top of the radiator for maximum airflow in this area.
beer

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#2273556 - 03/21/17 08:56 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Supercuda Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 11316
Loc: West Texas
Increasing capacity, unless it's due to increased radiator size, will not solve the problem.

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#2273586 - 03/21/17 09:43 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Crizila Offline
master

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 7362
Loc: Az
Thanks again for the feed back guys. Gonna look for a separate trans cooler today that will fit below my existing rad and in the grill air stream. Don't know how much it will help ( getting trans oil heat out of the bottom tank ), but it sure can't make the situation worse. Might try and get some temp #'s at speed today ( 65+ mph on the highway ). This info might tell me if more rad air flow is the way to go? If the steady state temp #'s go down, I will be looking for a better fan ( OEM fan that will fit in my confined space ). John
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#2273644 - 03/21/17 11:29 AM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Old Ray Offline
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Registered: 09/20/16
Posts: 38
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By Crizila
I will be looking for a better fan ( OEM fan that will fit in my confined space ). John


Some ducting / air flow into the trans cooler that also forces more air into the rad?

The best OEM electric fan, if you have room, is the Lincoln Mark VIII, (hands down) I have one on my 460, comes with a trimmable short shroud, but it desperately needs hood louvers on hot engine cool down to get the hot air out.

Removing hood sides on '37 did not help much.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/10/Mark8Fan/index2.php

Mark (big amps) and Taurus. I will see if I can get a pix of the 460 mark fan installed.





Edited by Old Ray (03/21/17 04:09 PM)

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#2273685 - 03/21/17 12:30 PM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
Supercuda Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 11316
Loc: West Texas
http://www.qsl.net/wd4ngb/markviii.htm

With dimensions and p/n's.

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#2273790 - 03/21/17 03:35 PM Re: additional cooling [Re: Crizila]
John_Kunkel Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 18260
Loc: Rio Linda, CA
Originally Posted By Crizila
Sooo, it appears that my existing system will hold the engine temp (@ idle rpm with no load )at around 190 - 215*.


Warmer weather will probably bring higher temps. You might consider changing your coolant to the Evans Coolant so the higher temps don't build dangerous system pressures.

http://www.evanscoolant.com/vehicle-types/hot-rods-muscle-cars/
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#2274921 - 03/23/17 04:18 PM Re: additional cooling [Re: John_Kunkel]
Crizila Offline
master

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 7362
Loc: Az
Originally Posted By John_Kunkel
Originally Posted By Crizila
Sooo, it appears that my existing system will hold the engine temp (@ idle rpm with no load )at around 190 - 215*.


Warmer weather will probably bring higher temps. You might consider changing your coolant to the Evans Coolant so the higher temps don't build dangerous system pressures.

http://www.evanscoolant.com/vehicle-types/hot-rods-muscle-cars/
Looking at that stuff John. Presently running a 10 lb cap with 60 / 40 mix - water/ glycol. My next step is changing the crank pulley from my existing 5.750 aluminum pulley to a stock 7.25 OEM pulley. This should speed up the pump about 200 RPM. The additional flow through the rad might just be enough. Step in the right direction anyway. Gonna do this before I install a remote trans cooler.
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