Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2267745
03/11/17 11:36 PM
03/11/17 11:36 PM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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super lite springs just make a mess the only way to fly is use the FBO slotted plate which is IMO the BEST Mopar part on the market--you drop it in --on the right set of slots and BINGO you get that 15-18 degrees at idle so cool happy engine no matter the cam and it limits the mechanical advance just like welding up the slots--crazy lite springs are often overcome by idle RPM and thus the idle will "HUNT" around up and down RPM - wise causing a big PIA Nobody on earth understands stock distributors better than Rick Erenburg--his written "teachings" are your path to happiness but not without that cheapo DREAM part the FBO plate Look it up--buy one--live in happiness with a stock junk distributor anybody still welding slots is just uninformed and needs some of those plates--I sleep with one under my pillow LOL
Last edited by crabman173; 03/11/17 11:37 PM.
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Hot 340]
#2267758
03/11/17 11:56 PM
03/11/17 11:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826 las vegas
70AARcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
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Last edited by 70AARcuda; 03/11/17 11:57 PM.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Hot 340]
#2267802
03/12/17 01:08 AM
03/12/17 01:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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here's a chart that may help. the crane spring kit is no longer available but no big deal. EDIT the weight holes/pins are cleaned, no sticking?
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/12/17 01:12 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Hot 340]
#2267876
03/12/17 07:27 AM
03/12/17 07:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685 pennsylvania
poboyengineering
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 685
pennsylvania
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This may be obvious, but the instructions show installation on a vacuum distributor. I have a tach drive unit with no vacuum. They are the same, right?
It may be ugly, but it sure is slow.
Girls comb their hair in rear view mirrors and the boys try to look so hard....
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: poboyengineering]
#2267971
03/12/17 01:02 PM
03/12/17 01:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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This may be obvious, but the instructions show installation on a vacuum distributor. I have a tach drive unit with no vacuum. They are the same, right? I would lean toward yes since the FBO plate sits on the weight pins/under the cam plate & I would think both types would have similar weight advance systems there. if you have a "regular" dist handy you could eyeball that area & likely confirm it.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: DrCharles]
#2267984
03/12/17 01:20 PM
03/12/17 01:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,017 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,017
Benton, IL.
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BTW, using a set of springs that has the advance all in by 600 RPM prevents hunting But that will require a very light spring and I can see a problem with the weights sticking in the advanced position. I have never been able to get the advance to return with springs that light. Personally, I like to have the advance all in as soon as I can while maintaining stable idle timing. Usually all-in around 1,600 or so. Some hardware stores have a selection of micro springs. I use those in combo with a stretched (weakened) stock small spring. And you can also drill holes in the weights to lighten them if the advance comes in a little earlier than desired. Trial and error and testing, testing, testing.
Master, again and still
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2268020
03/12/17 02:33 PM
03/12/17 02:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233
fredericksburg,va
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BTW, using a set of springs that has the advance all in by 600 RPM prevents hunting But that will require a very light spring and I can see a problem with the weights sticking in the advanced position. I have never been able to get the advance to return with springs that light. Personally, I like to have the advance all in as soon as I can while maintaining stable idle timing. Usually all-in around 1,600 or so. Some hardware stores have a selection of micro springs. I use those in combo with a stretched (weakened) stock small spring. And you can also drill holes in the weights to lighten them if the advance comes in a little earlier than desired. Trial and error and testing, testing, testing. Get that heavy grease out the factory uses inside the rotor stem
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: DrCharles]
#2268134
03/12/17 05:36 PM
03/12/17 05:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,233 fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
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master
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fredericksburg,va
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I Always used the stock dist, one light spring to bring it back to zero for easy starting. Once started it goes full advance ( timing light on balancer at 36) engine response is great when full advanced at 650 rpm. Do you drive on the street with full advance, or strip-only? What's the rest of your combo? Six different cars and seven different engines, from max wedge to Hemi, all race cars, I don't have a race engine on the street, haven't had one on the street since 1974. Street "driving" needs a whole different setup, basicly because of the lack of decent fuel. If there was still 260 gas I'd run full advance
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2268137
03/12/17 05:40 PM
03/12/17 05:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669 Wichita
GY3
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master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,669
Wichita
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I Always used the stock dist, one light spring to bring it back to zero for easy starting. Once started it goes full advance ( timing light on balancer at 36) engine response is great when full advanced at 650 rpm. Ran stock factory dist to 7500 never one problem, at no cost. Ain't as pretty as an MSD but I didn't run show cars. I do the same. I clean up a stock electronic distributor and use white lithium grease on the weights and 925-B springs. It starts easy yet acts like a locked out distributor at 36° total when running. The distributor triggers a hidden MSD 6AL with an adjustable rev limit. Usually set it at 6400 rpm. Runs and drives great with this setup! I do use 91 octane no ethanol but it will run on E-10 lower octane with this same setup. I have to pull a couple of degrees for crappy gas.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Hot 340]
#2268225
03/12/17 08:11 PM
03/12/17 08:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942
Metro Detroit
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I had 2 factory light springs from a basic elec dizzy. All in by 2300 IIRC...the Mr. G springs were WAY too light. all in by 1500...
my next step was going to be drilling out the weights
Last edited by OUTLAWD; 03/12/17 08:17 PM.
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Hot 340]
#2268272
03/12/17 09:24 PM
03/12/17 09:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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What curve kit/springs are you running to get full advance early by 2500/3000 or so? I just have the small factory spring left in there and I suspect its not strong enough.
It does have the fbo limiter plate. A stock primary spring will return the advance unless something is hanging up or sticking - it has to. The secondary spring doesn't come into play at low rpm. Also, the ones I've measured have a spring rate around 8 lbf/in (but will vary with application). I've not done any testing without a second spring, but its probably a reasonable extrapolation that its roughly 2 degrees advance for 300 rpm. If you need it slower, Mcmaster-carr sells one from Gardner spring thats .75" long and 24#/in. That's a hair longer than the stock and Direct Connection primary springs I've measured. The perch may have to be adjusted outward. To know if it will hit your 3000 rpm target, need to know the initial timing. The start of the advance can be changed by rotating the spring perch so there is more or less initial spring force. (There's a picture of the perch in this post http://racingfuelsystems.myfunforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=885&p=8277) This may be obvious, but the instructions show installation on a vacuum distributor. I have a tach drive unit with no vacuum. They are the same, right? Yes But do yourself a favor and make sure the limiting is done on the inside, not the outside (high rpm). One of the reasons the Tach Drive is the cat's meow is that the secondary spring compensates for 'slew rate' in the electronics. The only downside of that distributor is that timing is varying with rpm at idle. So to solve that, shorten the slot on the idle side. My guess is that when they developed the distributor starting was more important than idle. I've posted a graph of the curve here http://racingfuelsystems.myfunforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=666#p6029My best 1/4 mile and dyno runs have been with that distributor. I'm trying to replicate the concept into vac advance version, but I'm not giving up tach drive unit, ever!
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2268523
03/13/17 11:55 AM
03/13/17 11:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645 Phila. Pa.
Mattax
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
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here's a chart that may help. Robert, Thanks for sharing that. Do the instructions say or show the degrees on a graph? Also, if you have any of the springs, could you take a picture? One way to save some time on the engine or distributor machine is to measure up the springs. It's a little tedious but so is installing different combos in the distributor. Spring Rate can be calculated from the following:> Number of coils; More will reduce spring rate > Wire Diameter: Larger will increase spring rate > Coil Diameter (O.D. - wire diameter): Larger will reduce spring rate. Initial force will vary with length inside the loops, so measure that too. For calculating spring rate for a coil spring, make a couple of assumptions. 1. Active Coils are 1/2 coil less because the last where it turns out doesn't spring. 2. Elasticity for the material. I've been using 11,000,000 lbs/sq in. Spring Rate = (11,000,000 x Wire dia)/(8 x Active Coils x Dia^3) This where the roughly 8 #/in rate for a primary spring cames from. But this is just based on the ones I've measured. Will vary with application. The P2932675 super light springs work out to 0.68 lb/in each The DC/MP Aluinum Electronic Tach Drive primary spring 1.3 lb/in
Last edited by Mattax; 03/13/17 12:14 PM. Reason: added info and forumula
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Hot 340]
#2268686
03/13/17 04:15 PM
03/13/17 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161 CT
GTX MATT
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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What curve kit/springs are you running to get full advance early by 2500/3000 or so? I just have the small factory spring left in there and I suspect its not strong enough.
It does have the fbo limiter plate. That spring is stiffer than any of the recurve springs are combined. All of the kits are pretty much the same, trans dapt, mopar performance, and mr gasket I have them all. And they all are basically the same spring, which tends to be too weak to keep the advance stable at idle. Unless you've welded your slots up alot already and it pre-loads it enough so that its half stretched. The factory light spring only will give you full advance by about 2500-3000. If you want a little faster you can stretch it a little. If the factory light spring won't return your advance mechanism you have another issue (something sticking), or its not a factory light spring. That spring pretty much has all of the control in many of the the factory advance curves, except the last 4-8 degrees of advance. The other spring paired with the factory light is usually a slotted HEAVY spring that doesn't do anything at idle or the beginning of the timing curve, but makes the last 4-8 degrees of the timing curve come in REALLY slow, depending on how long the slot is. There was also a medium spring with no slot used in some setups.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 03/13/17 04:23 PM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Guys running a Mopar distributor
[Re: Mattax]
#2269085
03/14/17 01:13 AM
03/14/17 01:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Robert, Thanks for sharing that. Do the instructions say or show the degrees on a graph? Also, if you have any of the springs, could you take a picture? I wrote myself a note to take some pics if I can get the right functions on my Samsung st-72 camera to take a close up. For a spot on dist I would: drive out the lower roll pin & add shims (flat with no beveled edge, like common washers have) such as the speedway motors shim kit (its cheap) to reduce the axial play to .005. Peen the lower dist tang or add weld in the intergear slot to reduce the rotation slop between slot/tang interface to zero. add a side oiler (they're available) to the dist housing or an aluminum nipple & capped with one of those red/green or yellow colored plastic Ace hardware "thread protectors" which are pennies each. As said check bushing/shaft wear & replace/ream the new bushings as needed. check & correct rotor phasing as needed. Spring advance should start no less than 1-200 RPM above your hot in gear idle speed which is what you will see stoplight to stoplight. reduce rotor metal tang tip clearance to dist cap terminal cap clearance to .015" NAPA has an Echlin MO3000 rotor with a .060" longer blade for $8.xx out the door or drill out the rivet on the stock rotor & replace the outer brass piece with a longer piece. IN ORDER set initial with the vac gauge method. set total with the FBO $22 plate (initial+slots) to the accept initial for your eng type (35-SB) for a very close start. mix/match springs so you are just under the pinging point at WOT up thru the gears on your hottest/driest (most likely to ping) day. plug in the can to ported & adj with a 3/32 allen wrench so you are just under the pinging point in everyday driving under varying load (in hg)/RPM conditions on your hottest/driest day (CCW slows the curve/total is set but you can work with the notch on the arm either way or get another can. there is silent ping & gas varies & ain't getting any better and ANY pinging you can hear is EXTREMELY damaging so give yourself a cushion. A 1/2" hole in the top of the cap 2/3 between the center terminal and the #1 terminal lets you check phasing while running and several of these holes (tho unsightly) in the top and sides let ionized air molecules escape which can promote crossfire (misfire) just like when lightning strikes a tree with wide branches the space from the outstretched branches down to the ground is electrified (ionized) in the same way which is why they tell you never to seek shelter under a tree in a rain storm WHEN it is lightning or may be lightning shortly. use a brown or black cap with BRASS inserts. EDIT Oh I forgot about your question, there was no graph but you could make one. MORE EDIT the crane orange and red springs look identical to theeh OE stout one with the elongated loop on one end that you toss so I didn't even take a pic as I dont think it will be of any use. their light one I could not find but iirc it looked very close to the OE light spring (I'm sure the tension was slightly different on all three of em comparibly).
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/14/17 05:31 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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