Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2264737
03/07/17 07:36 AM
03/07/17 07:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272 Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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I understand that they are now using a modified Mustang box as basis for Mopar's. Perhaps they got it right this time,,,,or are you already using the new box,,,was added sometime in past year or so.
Been there, done that on my EBody, including requesting a replacement box from Borgeson which had exact same problem. Got burned good by them for shipping charges on their screw up however. Finally resolved utilizing a 1/4th shim on 2 bolt side.
All is now well,,,,however one tie rod(forget which side is 3/4 inch longer than other to have box at top center. Doubt that this has any effect on drivability.
Subsequently have acquired new correct steering box mounting bolts,,,photo shows grade 8 hardware store bolts.
In my case, don't believe was sector shaft. If your steering shaft makes an angle just before entering coupler as mine did,,,,it's likely that they did not jig box correctly before welding mounting ears.
Your shaft should be a straight shot to box from firewall into Bergman coupler,,,just as with factory box.
Not to suggest that your pitman shaft could too be mis-machined.
Overall a PITA with a lot of finger pointing and replacing the box to try a new one and then replacing again to re-install their original once I decided to do the shim approach.
All is well now, do like the drive.
Also installed one in the wife's 55 TBird. Had to adapt a full size Ford Borgeson kit to T Bird as no kit for the Bird from Borgeson. A giant PITA, but worth it as TBird steering system with slave cylinders and all was so bad.
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 03/07/17 07:56 AM.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2265286
03/08/17 12:46 AM
03/08/17 12:46 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
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up yours
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having one tierod assmebly longer than the other can induce bumpsteer issues.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: BergmanAutoCraft]
#2266789
03/10/17 02:18 PM
03/10/17 02:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305 5th and plum
redmist
OP
enthusiast
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OP
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Or call me for advice? Not on this board.... I appreciate that, I work during the day (Home with sick kids today) So a phone call is often hard for me. Honestly lets just do it here.... If you have some information, please share it right here on the board. That's the whole point of this thread, and these forums. Lets get this information out so others can learn. Right now I see a sector shaft that was machined incorrectly from center to master spline, and I see mounting ears that are incorrectly fixtured.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2267315
03/11/17 12:17 PM
03/11/17 12:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,406 New Jersey, USA
yella71
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2005
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New Jersey, USA
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No one will like this but its your own fault for using any part that is originally from ford. Ford sucks yes I'm extremely biased I HATE fords. If any of you think that the mounting ears were welded on wrong (they welded on mounting tabs to make the part fit a mopar? that's just stupid) cut them off and re position the tabs yourself. Any one who thinks ANY aftermarket hipo part will just bolt on out of the box and work like stock has not been doing this very long. good luck to you all
71 challenger convertable, 64 sport fury 383 ci with factory air
99 sebring convertable
89 CTD pup
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: yella71]
#2267399
03/11/17 02:07 PM
03/11/17 02:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,460 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,460
So Cal
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No one will like this but its your own fault for using any part that is originally from ford. Ford sucks yes I'm extremely biased I HATE fords. If any of you think that the mounting ears were welded on wrong (they welded on mounting tabs to make the part fit a mopar? that's just stupid) cut them off and re position the tabs yourself. Any one who thinks ANY aftermarket hipo part will just bolt on out of the box and work like stock has not been doing this very long. good luck to you all It's a Delphi box and design. Versions sold to various manufacturers. A similar one was Jeeps too.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2267466
03/11/17 03:56 PM
03/11/17 03:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
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Manitoba Canada
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The box has about 1/2" more offset than stock...if you don't want to deal with it put a factory box in the car...I would have to think by now that it is common knowledge these boxes need a bit of tweaking to work. That reminds me that the new carb I bought needed different jets and air bleeds....
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2267485
03/11/17 04:22 PM
03/11/17 04:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Supercuda]
#2267497
03/11/17 04:37 PM
03/11/17 04:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
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Manitoba Canada
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Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this. So you fall under the don't want to deal with it camp, so stick with the factory box, simple.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: yella71]
#2277376
03/27/17 09:53 PM
03/27/17 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,066 Eugene, Oregon
minivan
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,066
Eugene, Oregon
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No one will like this but its your own fault for using any part that is originally from ford. Ford sucks yes I'm extremely biased I HATE fords. If any of you think that the mounting ears were welded on wrong (they welded on mounting tabs to make the part fit a mopar? that's just stupid) cut them off and re position the tabs yourself. Any one who thinks ANY aftermarket hipo part will just bolt on out of the box and work like stock has not been doing this very long. good luck to you all So you are not going to order a new mustang???
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 67autocross]
#2277414
03/27/17 11:01 PM
03/27/17 11:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this. So you fall under the don't want to deal with it camp, so stick with the factory box, simple. No, I fall under the "I don't enjoy getting bent over and dry ******" camp. But some apparently do enjoy it.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 67autocross]
#2282261
04/04/17 03:08 PM
04/04/17 03:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732 eastern,Ky
70RT Charger
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
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Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this. So you fall under the don't want to deal with it camp, so stick with the factory box, simple. So tell us all how much greater this Borgeson box is than a factory steer and gear or firm feel box.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 70RT Charger]
#2282347
04/04/17 05:35 PM
04/04/17 05:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this. So you fall under the don't want to deal with it camp, so stick with the factory box, simple. So tell us all how much greater this Borgeson box is than a factory steer and gear or firm feel box. 64.8 % greater, now you guys can go back to talking about dry humping.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 67autocross]
#2282472
04/04/17 09:42 PM
04/04/17 09:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732 eastern,Ky
70RT Charger
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
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Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this. So you fall under the don't want to deal with it camp, so stick with the factory box, simple. So tell us all how much greater this Borgeson box is than a factory steer and gear or firm feel box. 64.8 % greater, now you guys can go back to talking about dry humping. That was a great explanation. Makes me want to go out and buy one now
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 70RT Charger]
#2282505
04/04/17 10:32 PM
04/04/17 10:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Makes me want to go out and buy one now [/quote]
You should buy one ,they are a simple bolt in and you end up with about the best steering you can get without changing over to a rack setup. I would contact Peter at Bergman Auto Craft and talk to him directly, he is very good to deal with and if you need advice on installing it will help you out.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 67autocross]
#2282513
04/04/17 10:37 PM
04/04/17 10:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732 eastern,Ky
70RT Charger
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2007
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eastern,Ky
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Makes me want to go out and buy one now You should buy one ,they are a simple bolt in and you end up with about the best steering you can get without changing over to a rack setup. I would contact Peter at Bergman Auto Craft and talk to him directly, he is very good to deal with and if you need advice on installing it will help you out. [/quote]I was asking a serious question. I'm going to upgrade, just wanted to know the actual benefits over it to the others I mentioned. Is it really worth dropping the $$$ for it?
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2282522
04/04/17 10:49 PM
04/04/17 10:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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The money part I can't answer for you, but it is a marked improvement over a factory box.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2282608
04/05/17 12:55 AM
04/05/17 12:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
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up yours
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I suggest you talk to owners of FF boxes as well.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 67autocross]
#2282807
04/05/17 01:33 PM
04/05/17 01:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404 Michigan
MarkZ
Worthy
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Worthy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,404
Michigan
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The money part I can't answer for you, but it is a marked improvement over a factory box. I'll take a stab at the money part. I started with a Steer and Gear rebuilt box and it wasn't bad. I've driven cars with FF boxes too. FF does great work, but ultimately they're limited by the deficiencies of the factory box itself. The biggest drawback is the slop you get with the steering wheel at 12-o-clock before it starts firming up. The Borgeson box doesn't have this - it stays firm from lock to lock. Advantages: - 15lbs lighter
- 2/3 the size
- built-in 14:1 ratio, vs 16:1 of a stock box
- No 12-o-clock slop
Firm Feel - Box: $360
- Core: $200
- Fast Ratio Pitman: $200
- Fast Ratio Idler: $90
With the fast ratio hardware you'll get a better 12:1 ratio, but it can interfere with some headers. Total: $850 or $650 if you have a box to send back Borgrson (Bergman priceing): Honestly, whether or not it's worth it is completely dependent on what you're doing with the car. It is physically a much better box, but if all you're looking to do is firm the steering up with none of the other bits or worries of header clearance and weight then the FF box is half the price. That being said though, even at the extreme end of the pricing differences, I would order a Borgeson box again without thinking twice.
1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2283029
04/05/17 09:17 PM
04/05/17 09:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Money aside both Firm Feel boxes I ran were sloppy again after a couple of years of driving...just like the factory boxes.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2286523
04/12/17 06:22 PM
04/12/17 06:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
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Goody, your an engineer.
How difficult would it have been to engineer the box to fit at least as well as the stock box?
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#2286725
04/12/17 11:47 PM
04/12/17 11:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Goody, your an engineer.
How difficult would it have been to engineer the box to fit at least as well as the stock box? For how much adjustment is available within the factory column and what misalignment it can take, it would likely not be very difficult. I would be curious to see what a random population of K-frames look like on a 3D scanner, I bet they vary substantially based on 70's quality control. Not that it's an excuse, but I bet many would be surprised. I believe Borgeson could simply include some shims and people would complain a whole lot less. For example, Hotchkis includes pretty substantial shims on their front sway bar kit to accommodate factory K-frame variance, I believe my chassis mount shims are around 1/2". While obviously these shims are on much less of a critical component, the theory still applies. Do people complain? No, they don't. Why? Because the shims are right there in the box and it seems to have been a forethought, they put the shims in and keep on living their lives. It's all in how one wants to spin it. Do you have any steering geometry issues with the centering and tie rod length? The car has not had an alignment yet. Is the coupling center line in line with the steering column? Can't really tell from the picture. Yes. A 10 gauge shim is how thick? Where again? Show us 10 gauge is approximately 0.14". The passenger side two bolts have shims behind the box, a picture isn't really necessary here, it's quite simple. Why are fast ratio arms needed on 16:1 box? No applicable to my post. I will, however, consider the 1.5:1 steering quickener I have on hand if I find the steering not fast enough for an autocross course. It's difficult for to understand why spending a lot of money on better hardware that doesn't fit without compromise is a wise choice. As far a the firm feel boxes loosening up complaint. Try something called steering sector shaft adjustment. It's in the book [FSM].
The sector shaft adjustment is typically not an acceptable method of adjusting a box, with longevity in mind. Here is how my potential costs stacked up: Firm Feel Stage 3 Box: ($379) Shipping Core to Firm Feel: ($70) Shipping Firm Feel Box Back: ($70) Total: ($519) Borgeson Box: ($566) Shipping: $0 Borgeson U-Joint: ($117) Selling Old Box: $90 Total: ($593) It would have been $74 cheaper to use a Firm Feel box. I have a 15# lighter box and, from what I hear, excellent road feel once it is up and running. It's not a life changing decision if it does not work out, but it's not like my alternative was hundreds of dollars cheaper. The numbers are there and are not sensationalized.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2286751
04/13/17 12:20 AM
04/13/17 12:20 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
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Posts: 14,889
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Aren't the hoses in need of an adapter?
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Supercuda]
#2286884
04/13/17 08:34 AM
04/13/17 08:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Aren't the hoses in need of an adapter? My plan has always been custom with the Hemi, shouldn't be any real cost increase there worth mentioning. To me.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2287005
04/13/17 01:21 PM
04/13/17 01:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
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In your case maybe not.
Other cases who knows. Nothing sux worse than starting a quicky weekend project only to find out you do not have every thing ready to go as you though and it's 2am Sunday morning when you find that out.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Supercuda]
#2287552
04/14/17 10:29 AM
04/14/17 10:29 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355 north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,355
north of coder
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all "easy", half hour jobs take at LEAST three plus hours and a couple of runs to the parts store to do. then, you of course do this on the weekend, only to find out the things you need are "out of stock", or the only available store that has what you need is conveniently closed. then, after finally getting your needed items, you find out things need modified to fit which takes another hour or so with the grinder, mill, or lathe. this, you find out around wednesday of the following week, so by the weekend, you can FINALLY get the job done. half way to completion, you chop your finger, which requires an ER visit for stitches, then, you feel real crappy when you get home, so rest and beers later, it is monday morning and time for work. the following weekend, you almost feel up to finish the job, but get unexpected company for the weekend. monday morning arrives all to soon after the "fun" visit, then another week passes, during which your stitches get removed from your "slight hack". finally, you complete the "easy, half hour" FUN job sunday afternoon about supper time. supper, snooze time, and it's monday morning AGAIN.......... [and we ARE having fun ! - i think ? right ? that's why we do this, right ? it's SO relaxing to tinker in the garage. ]
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: moparx]
#2289623
04/17/17 07:58 PM
04/17/17 07:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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Moparx -- very well said!
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2290265
04/18/17 09:50 PM
04/18/17 09:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732 eastern,Ky
70RT Charger
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
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Wow, price on these bad boys is through the floor. I seem to remember they were around $770.00 at launch. Just checked my pricing and I can get it for $471.75, MSRP is $566.10
Now that we all know how to make these work, its a bit more viable of an option. Where did you get that price at and is that everything you need to make it work
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2292512
04/23/17 02:16 AM
04/23/17 02:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305 5th and plum
redmist
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
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UPDATE! Shimmed the box closer to header (Opposite of where I needed it to go) so the angle into the column was livable. Machined out the master splines on the pitman. Clocked it over three teeth and it's now within factory specs. Box is now on center with factory spline of steering wheel, tie rods are even, feels good! If you get this box, prepare to hack! On a related note, I have determined that the factory coupling mechanism is not designed to take much deflection from straight.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2296316
04/30/17 12:09 AM
04/30/17 12:09 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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[quote=BergmanAutoCraft]Or call me for advice? Not on this board.... [/quote
See my response below.
I appreciate that, I work during the day (Home with sick kids today) So a phone call is often hard for me.
***So you can post at 11:18 am? My cell works 24hrs. I dont know who you purchased the box from, regardless, pics would be helpful. You know the e and b k frames although interchangeable have slightly different box mounting angles too? Without pics or direct communication its hard for me to help. Situations change drastically when it becomes person to person.***
Honestly lets just do it here.... If you have some information, please share it right here on the board. That's the whole point of this thread, and these forums.
Lets get this information out so others can learn.
Right now I see a sector shaft that was machined incorrectly from center to master spline, and I see mounting ears that are incorrectly fixtured.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: BergmanAutoCraft]
#2296424
04/30/17 11:14 AM
04/30/17 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732 eastern,Ky
70RT Charger
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
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What is your name. I recieved 0 messages. My email and cell are on my site 24hrs. 516 384 6438. Ok, I didn't call your cell phone. I called the 631 number. My name is Chris
Last edited by 70RT Charger; 04/30/17 11:15 AM.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 70RT Charger]
#2297189
05/01/17 03:25 PM
05/01/17 03:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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^^^^^ Well "I" tried to call you 4 times last week. The answer I get is that your always in the shop. Left you my return information and no returned calls. If the b-bodys are having trouble with this box because of different mounting angles why even try to sell it. A lot of us are looking for a direct bolt in and dont have the time, tools or skills for a hack job. Step back a second. There have been some instances in the 300+ boxes I've sold with unexplained angles. B/E Ks are interchangeable, however, the bodies are different in terms of the location of the columns, I have found cases where K's were not with their respective bodies.
Last edited by BergmanAutoCraft; 05/01/17 03:30 PM.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: BergmanAutoCraft]
#2297513
05/02/17 12:27 AM
05/02/17 12:27 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA
68rrunner
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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Step back a second.
There have been some instances in the 300+ boxes I've sold with unexplained angles.
B/E Ks are interchangeable, however, the bodies are different in terms of the location of the columns, I have found cases where K's were not with their respective bodies.
Then why would a factory box fit fine before the swap? So far I'm 2 for 3 installed having alignment issues. The other one leaked from the weld. All 3 were swaps with their original K Frames and factory boxes. I'm probably going to pull the trigger on #4 before my June track day.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2297696
05/02/17 12:56 PM
05/02/17 12:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577 Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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Step back a second.
There have been some instances in the 300+ boxes I've sold with unexplained angles.
B/E Ks are interchangeable, however, the bodies are different in terms of the location of the columns, I have found cases where K's were not with their respective bodies.
Then why would a factory box fit fine before the swap? So far I'm 2 for 3 installed having alignment issues. The other one leaked from the weld. All 3 were swaps with their original K Frames and factory boxes. I'm probably going to pull the trigger on #4 before my June track day. If you look closely at the OE boxes there is a very small operating angle. Because the new box is narrower and needs the angle to point towards the steering column, this angle is exaggerated.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Kern Dog]
#2298178
05/03/17 11:06 AM
05/03/17 11:06 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA
68rrunner
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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I sit in wonder as to why some people complain so damn much. I understand that this is not an inexpensive upgrade but WHY don't people ask more questions or do more research before reaching for the credit card? I read from people that must have a rosy view, buying stuff on total faith that it will be a perfect fit without any "brain work" at all. Do these same people buy crate motors or actually build them themselves? I am not an expert at anything automotive but I do have some skills. I am bright enough to understand that some parts require some slight modifications to work. Any Holley carburetor needs a throttle adapter if the car has an automatic transmission. Sometimes headers need a few dings to clear a torsion bar or steering linkage. I don't see this as needing an adapter or adjustment; I see this as defective pieces or a part made to sub-par specs. And as a guy who builds these cars for a living, I can tell you if a company doesn't make a part that fits, we build it from scratch. We have a running joke at our shop when we buy "bolt on parts" like this. We sarcastically say: "Bolt on parts that you can install with basic hand tools in your driveway on a Saturday!" while we are chucking up a spacer in the lathe or mounting the "bolt on part" into the mill before we get ready to TIG weld an adapter together. You get the idea. Companies have 3 ways of dealing with this. -Like this case it's deny deny deny and then try to blame the cars, installers, weather, gravitational pull of the moon. anything but the product; While claiming "Call me! I have the magic bullet!" While other installers are actually providing tech help and doing the homework that the original manufacturer and resellers should have done in the first place during R&D. -Build pieces to a good average spec after test fitting on numerous chassis' and provide detailed instructions on pit falls and problems (and a lot of shims)while providing robust support on the forums and over the phone while also visiting installers shops to help folks new to the product. -Just build [censored] products and make as much money as you can until people figure out they've got better options and your company goes [censored] up and leave the community and customers helpless.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2298192
05/03/17 11:29 AM
05/03/17 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667 Los Osos, Ca
CKessel
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 667
Los Osos, Ca
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Well said Dan. I may be lucky so far as the unit I received from Peter appears to line up fine on my k with the engine/trans/headers bolted to it. As I remember the angles were fine the last time I had slipped it into the bay for test fits. Will have to look again to make sure the next time I have it in there for further test fits. Peter does have a point too regarding the possibilties of k swaps being done over the years and how that can effect the outcome. But bottom line, when a company makes a product that is advertised as a "bolt up" unit, it needs to be. People should not have to field engineer fixes. Not everyone with a project car has the ability to figure out a fix. The unit should have been engineered, both on paper[ theory] and on the intended vehicle[ reality], which is where some engineers fail as they have never worked on something a day in their life.
Carl Kessel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: redmist]
#2298546
05/03/17 10:46 PM
05/03/17 10:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Well this is Moparts where guys can't seem to bolt in stock parts without some level of problems...now if you happen to take your car to someone and bolting in a Borgeson box in is outside their comfort zone you might want to look for a new place to get work done....by some miracle there likely 1000's of these on the road in classic Mopars at this point.
I have purchased from Peter at Bergman Auto before and had no problem getting ahold of him by phone or email to discuss any concerns.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 67autocross]
#2298549
05/03/17 10:54 PM
05/03/17 10:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Well this is Moparts where guys can't seem to bolt in stock parts without some level of problems...now if you happen to take your car to someone and bolting in a Borgeson box in is outside their comfort zone you might want to look for a new place to get work done....by some miracle there likely 1000's of these on the road in classic Mopars at this point.
I have purchased from Peter at Bergman Auto before and had no problem getting ahold of him by phone or email to discuss any concerns.
And there are millions of factory boxes that bolted up with ZERO problems. The problem isn't the installer, it's a manufacturing defect.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Supercuda]
#2298568
05/03/17 11:19 PM
05/03/17 11:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 190 NJ
JH23
member
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member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 190
NJ
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I guess after this thread the E body Borgeson box will be discontinued.
Last edited by JH23; 05/03/17 11:21 PM.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Supercuda]
#2298579
05/03/17 11:37 PM
05/03/17 11:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Well this is Moparts where guys can't seem to bolt in stock parts without some level of problems...now if you happen to take your car to someone and bolting in a Borgeson box in is outside their comfort zone you might want to look for a new place to get work done....by some miracle there likely 1000's of these on the road in classic Mopars at this point.
I have purchased from Peter at Bergman Auto before and had no problem getting ahold of him by phone or email to discuss any concerns.
And there are millions of factory boxes that bolted up with ZERO problems. The problem isn't the installer, it's a manufacturing defect. Well this is Moparts where guys can't seem to bolt in stock parts without some level of problems...now if you happen to take your car to someone and bolting in a Borgeson box in is outside their comfort zone you might want to look for a new place to get work done....by some miracle there likely 1000's of these on the road in classic Mopars at this point.
I have purchased from Peter at Bergman Auto before and had no problem getting ahold of him by phone or email to discuss any concerns.
And there are millions of factory boxes that bolted up with ZERO problems. The problem isn't the installer, it's a manufacturing defect. Who cares how many cars came from the factory with factory boxes... most likely all of them did.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: JH23]
#2298580
05/03/17 11:38 PM
05/03/17 11:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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I guess after this thread the E body Borgeson box will be discontinued. I'm sure they will stop....
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: JH23]
#2298586
05/03/17 11:44 PM
05/03/17 11:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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I guess after this thread the E body Borgeson box will be discontinued. There is no "E body box", nor will it be discontinued, nor will the known issues be addressed.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Supercuda]
#2298593
05/03/17 11:50 PM
05/03/17 11:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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I guess after this thread the E body Borgeson box will be discontinued. There is no "E body box", nor will it be discontinued, nor will the known issues be addressed. You should contact Borgeson and let them know...
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: Supercuda]
#2298598
05/03/17 11:54 PM
05/03/17 11:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this. Why do you keep posting in this thread? Do you have something to add or are you just trying to save the rest of us from making a huge mistake?...should I run out to the garage and start pulling these boxes off my cars now that you have told me they don't fit....
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!
[Re: 67autocross]
#2298779
05/04/17 11:20 AM
05/04/17 11:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270 Mountain View, CA
68rrunner
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 270
Mountain View, CA
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You should contact Borgeson and let them know...
We did, numerous times for different reasons. Its been documented on this forum as an informative install post so that folks could see what the problems were an how to fix it.
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