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#2254743 - 02/16/17 06:02 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: John_Kunkel]
SKR8PN Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7894
Loc: The Grand State of Confusion-O...
Originally Posted By John_Kunkel
The only reason American cars have decent quality is because American car makers were shamed into it by the Japanese auto makers.


Then they have not been shamed enough. The domestic stuff is absolutely scrap as far as I am concerned. I see 5 y/o domestic pickups that have no bed sides,fenders,doors,rockers,tailgates or bumpers left. You can not tell me that they do not have the technology to make this stuff last at least 10 years. I won't even mention the lousy fuel economy, leaking gaskets, bad transmissions or the P.O.S. engines by Chrysler ending in .7
Last 3 autos I have owned have been Subaru's. 1 went well north of 180,000, was sold to a buddy and his daughter is still driving it. ZERO issues other than normal maintenance. Wifes 09 is north of 120,000, same story. My 05 Baja has north of 215,000 and still has the ORIGINAL shocks, struts, clutch, most of the bulbs and ALL original sheetmetal with zero rust anywhere and it STILL knocks down 25-26 mpg with a ton of abuse. Oh and it is still tight and quiet and drives like a car with 10,000 miles. When the domestics can do that, I will own one. Until then, I will stick with what works for me here in the rusty snow belt we call O-HI-O.

Update to add the junk GM instrument clusters, door/window switches and Ford ignition coil/spark plug issues.


Edited by SKR8PN (02/16/17 06:11 PM)
_________________________
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#2254783 - 02/16/17 07:57 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: SKR8PN]
RS23U1G Offline
Moparts Torchbearer

Registered: 04/19/12
Posts: 18880
Loc: Detroit
I have ties with Chrysler going back to Dodge Main in the mid-thirties...


Some of my cousins(west siders)worked for Ford...


A couple were at the Tech Center with Harley Earl...


I've gotten miles out of all of my vehicles...

All domestic...

One, 230k in 5 years...

The Big Three put this town on the map...


You will NEVER see an import in my drive...

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#2254796 - 02/16/17 08:21 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: RS23U1G]
Rhinodart Offline
Rhinotruck

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 36265
Loc: Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Originally Posted By RS23U1G
I have ties with Chrysler going back to Dodge Main in the mid-thirties...


Some of my cousins(west siders)worked for Ford...


A couple were at the Tech Center with Harley Earl...


I've gotten miles out of all of my vehicles...

All domestic...

One, 230k in 5 years...


The Big Three put this town on the map...


You will NEVER see an import in my drive...


Here here! bow At least Subratru's are assembled in Lafayette, Indiana where I grew up and I have friends who work there, but I would never be caught dead in one especially the way people who one them drive them. tsk The only issues I ever had with my Dodges and Chryslers were a little rust and trans problems with the diesel trucks. As far as trucks rusting, haven't you seen Toiletta's and Nippon's rusting to death, especially the frames? eek
_________________________
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

2018 Carlisle All-Chrysler Nationals July 13-14
Hurst Nationals held in conjunction includes
1968 Dodge Dart and Barracuda Hemi Super Stock Reunion!
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#2254843 - 02/16/17 09:38 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: Rhinodart]
SKR8PN Offline


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7894
Loc: The Grand State of Confusion-O...
Originally Posted By Rhinodart
The only issues I ever had with my Dodges and Chryslers were a little rust and trans problems with the diesel trucks. As far as trucks rusting, haven't you seen Toiletta's and Nippon's rusting to death, especially the frames? eek


Oh ya, but at least Toyota either repaired them(and all associated parts at no cost to the owner) or bought them back at market value. Try getting Chrysler/Fiat to do THAT with your 5 year old truck that you can read a newspaper thru the bumper or fender due to rust.
I still love my older Mopars, but until they can build something that (A) gets decent mileage or (B) does not rust into the ground,or (C) doesn't break the bank with stupid repairs, I will continue driving my "imports" that are built to last, right here in the good old U.S.A.
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#2254847 - 02/16/17 09:55 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: Rhinodart]
wkroncke17 Offline
master

Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 2564
Loc: Wisconsin
My father always told me there will never be a car in our driveway that funds the same company that built the planes which bombed Pearl Harbor!
I just don't like them, I'll gladly drive my Dodge truck.

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#2254850 - 02/16/17 10:04 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: wkroncke17]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 19004
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
Originally Posted By wkroncke17
My father always told me there will never be a car in our driveway that funds the same company that built the planes which bombed Pearl Harbor!
I just don't like them, I'll gladly drive my Dodge truck.


My Step Father 1923-2009 who served in the pacific theatre dodging bullets on a landing craft pretty much said the same thing in the 60-80s. His last vehicle was a Toyota pickup, he loved it.

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#2254906 - 02/17/17 01:51 AM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: SKR8PN]
poorboy Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 6279
Loc: Freeport IL USA
Originally Posted By SKR8PN
Originally Posted By Rhinodart
The only issues I ever had with my Dodges and Chryslers were a little rust and trans problems with the diesel trucks. As far as trucks rusting, haven't you seen Toiletta's and Nippon's rusting to death, especially the frames? eek


Oh ya, but at least Toyota either repaired them(and all associated parts at no cost to the owner) or bought them back at market value. Try getting Chrysler/Fiat to do THAT with your 5 year old truck that you can read a newspaper thru the bumper or fender due to rust.
I still love my older Mopars, but until they can build something that (A) gets decent mileage or (B) does not rust into the ground,or (C) doesn't break the bank with stupid repairs, I will continue driving my "imports" that are built to last, right here in the good old U.S.A.


Toyota repaired or replaced the frames on one truck line of the 4 or 5 lines that used the same rotting frame. If you happened to own the trucks from that 1 line, you were good, but if you happened to own one of the other lines, you got screwed. The problem Toyota had was even the frames on southern non-rust belt trucks were rotting out. They sure got a lot of mileage out of replacing the frames on that one truck line though. All the trucks imported from Japan used that same frame, and only Toyota had to replace about 1/2 of the ones they sold, everyone else that got stuck with that frame got the big one. I'm betting if one dug deep enough, Toyota only replaced those frames because our government was about to force them to replace all the defective frames. By volunteering to replace the defective frames on that one truck line, our government probably let them slide on the rest of the frames.

One might also point out the even though body parts rot out on domestic trucks that reside in the rust belt, there wasn't wide spread frame rust within the first 4-5 years.

Somehow its OK for all of the frames to rot out on an import, if they replace 1/2 of them, but its a crime if some sheet metal rots out on 1/2 the rust belt domestic trucks during the same time frame.

Talk about a double standard! Gene

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#2254921 - 02/17/17 06:00 AM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: wingman]
79powerwagon Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 27726
Loc: places
Originally Posted By wingman
Unfortunately consumers have very long memories when it comes to bad experiences.

Though largely undeserved now, some American car companies are still paying the "perception" price for the crap products they put out in the late 70's and 80's.

It's often hard to gain someone's trust, but very easy to lose it.


A favorite saying from a former friend/employer/mentor-

"It's ALWAYS harder to sell the second time".

A lot of truth in that little statement!

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#2254982 - 02/17/17 09:50 AM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: 79powerwagon]
A12 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 17854
Loc: N.E. OHIO, USA
To me the quality of any vehicle build is hidden by jumps right out at you by just looking at the quality and grade of the fasteners used to put it together. If you get a chance to go to one of the large manufacture's new car shows open up the door, hood, and trunk and look at the grade (quality) codes on the heads of the fasteners. Most American cars built in the USA use a high to medium high grade fastener to hold anything from the doors to hood to engine on or together. The Pacific Rim (Korea, Japan, etc.,) use grade 4, 7, and 11, but mostly grade 4's and 7's. Those are cheap, low grade fasteners for production and the consumer never sees that. Now the aircraft and military would never use low grade or quality fasteners and the next time your sitting on an airplane and look out and see the engine or wing being held on by a grade 4 bolt and nut, run for the exit.

The Euro's tend to use a minimum grade 8 and grade 10.8 and grade 12 to assemble their vehicles and engines and a lot of higher strength by design Allen and Torxs style fasteners and Mercedes even still bolts the door hinges to the A and B pillars and is said to suspend the bodies on the assembly line by the door hinges because that's how strong the design and components are. Remember how our car door hinges were designed and BOLTED on, now that weld a crap piece of non re-buildable sheet metal to the pillars. Don't look at the "showroom finish quality" the J-models perfected that and that "initial" quality is what they sell on and they are really good at it. Just like old quality tools that were manufactured with high grade fasteners and components and out last the current life expectancies criteria, there are still some things built that way. An engineer wants told me that a certain country's philosophy was that the expected life cycle of a car was 5-years under normal (not extreme) use and that if parts on the vehicle went beyond that period then they were OVER ENGINEERED, and something needed to be addressed, like use cheaper material and fasteners.

Go look at your fasteners and "What's holding your wings on?"


Attachments
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Edited by A12 (02/17/17 09:55 AM)

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#2254985 - 02/17/17 09:57 AM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: A12]
A12 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 17854
Loc: N.E. OHIO, USA
1


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#2254988 - 02/17/17 09:58 AM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: A12]
A12 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 17854
Loc: N.E. OHIO, USA
3


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#2254991 - 02/17/17 10:12 AM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: A12]
A12 Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 17854
Loc: N.E. OHIO, USA
'69 B-body steering box bold.....wonder what's holding a Kia steering assembly on now?



Attachments
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Edited by A12 (02/17/17 10:14 AM)

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#2254992 - 02/17/17 10:15 AM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: Supercuda]
70440+6bbl Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5167
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By Supercuda
The other day I saw a small car on the road. Had a USMC sticker on it and another one that said some along the lines of "I'm a Marine and proud of it". He was driving a Tercel.

I laughed, jarheads never were too smart.



I've been to Army, Navy and USMC bases from Ft.Sill, to Cherry Point and it's the same way at every single one of them. I'm at West Point once a month and foreign cars are more common there than American. I guess it filters from the brass on down...

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#2255055 - 02/17/17 12:21 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: wkroncke17]
p d'ro Offline
pro stock

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 1525
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By wkroncke17
My father always told me there will never be a car in our driveway that funds the same company that built the planes which bombed Pearl Harbor!
I just don't like them, I'll gladly drive my Dodge truck.


Henry Ford basically had to be ordered to stop selling to Hitler
"German diplomats award Henry Ford, center, with their nation's highest decoration for foreigners, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, in July 1938. (AP Ph"
"But documents discovered in German and American archives show a much more complicated picture. In certain instances, American managers of both GM and Ford went along with the conversion of their German plants to military production at a time when U.S. government documents show they were still resisting calls by the Roosevelt administration to step up military production in their plants at home."
So no mention of Mopar, but GM and Ford helped the German war machine.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

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#2255066 - 02/17/17 12:55 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: p d'ro]
67SATisfaction Offline
master

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 6964
Loc: Albany, NY
Originally Posted By p d'ro
Originally Posted By wkroncke17
My father always told me there will never be a car in our driveway that funds the same company that built the planes which bombed Pearl Harbor!
I just don't like them, I'll gladly drive my Dodge truck.


Henry Ford basically had to be ordered to stop selling to Hitler
"German diplomats award Henry Ford, center, with their nation's highest decoration for foreigners, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, in July 1938. (AP Ph"
"But documents discovered in German and American archives show a much more complicated picture. In certain instances, American managers of both GM and Ford went along with the conversion of their German plants to military production at a time when U.S. government documents show they were still resisting calls by the Roosevelt administration to step up military production in their plants at home."
So no mention of Mopar, but GM and Ford helped the German war machine.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm


Interesting information there. It's good to remember the context - complex.

Prior to 1938 and right up to 1940 a lot of Americans were strictly neutral, wanting NOTHING to to do with the developing conflicts in Europe. It would be fair for GM and Ford business people to assume the US would stay out of the war altogether. So by 1938, war still a year away, GM and Ford's German plants had simply been using their plant's capacity wisely, facing reduced European civilian consumption but maintaining production by selling to the "German War Machine" - which the US wasn't necessarily expecting to go to war against.

Meanwhile, on our side of the Atlantic, heck - Roosevelt had to get around Congress's unwillingness to get our country on a war footing by inventing the Lend Lease program to provide the UK with critical ships and material.

The timeline for Roosevelt's call for domestic military production is everything: If that was in 1938, GM and Ford would be asked to forego domestic sales in favor of non-existent US military orders for material. By 1941 the picture would be entirely different.

Some of my details maybe inaccurate, but the framework should be mostly correct. I should go read that article now...

Cheers,
- Art



Edited by 67SATisfaction (02/17/17 12:56 PM)
_________________________
1965 Satellite hardtop 361/2bbl, auto, pegleg 2.76
1967 Satellite convert 383/4bbl, auto, pegleg 3.23
1975 Maserati Bora, 4.9L DOHC hemi V8, 5-spd ZF
1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6, 2.5L SOHC hemi V6, 5-spd transaxle
1994 Alfa Romeo 164LS, 3.0L SOHC 24v hemi V6, 4spd auto ZF
2007 Aston Martin DB9, 6.0L DOHC V12, 6spd full manual transaxle

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#2255615 - 02/18/17 05:04 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: 67SATisfaction]
11secdart Offline
master

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 4042
Loc: new jersey usa
In respond to the rusted Rams : I have seen a lot of them , I have an 08 without the plastic liners, mine isn`t rusted although I don`t drive it much or everyday. it does get out in the salt on occasion and gets cleaned asap afterward. A friend showed me why the Dodges rust over the rear wheel : if you look in there ,there are 3 oblong holes in the inner fender that got thru to the outer fender, this is were water and crap get stuck in there, I loaded up the holes with silicone to prevent moisture from getting in, so far it appears to be working, the frame rails and undercarriage had a lot of surface rust this past fall I cleaned it and painted it with black Rustoleom


Attachments
IMG_0260.jpg




Edited by 11secdart (02/18/17 05:06 PM)
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08 1500 Quad Cab Hemi 4x4
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#2255641 - 02/18/17 05:53 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: Rhinodart]
RS23U1G Offline
Moparts Torchbearer

Registered: 04/19/12
Posts: 18880
Loc: Detroit
RhinoJim...

I see you and Scott Smith made the new issue of Roland Power...


From Chicago last year...

Where they have some American made vehicles on display in Nov...

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#2255745 - 02/18/17 09:00 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: poorboy]
fourgearsavoy Offline


Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 9252
Loc: Rittman Ohio
Originally Posted By poorboy
Originally Posted By SKR8PN
Originally Posted By Rhinodart
The only issues I ever had with my Dodges and Chryslers were a little rust and trans problems with the diesel trucks. As far as trucks rusting, haven't you seen Toiletta's and Nippon's rusting to death, especially the frames? eek


Oh ya, but at least Toyota either repaired them(and all associated parts at no cost to the owner) or bought them back at market value. Try getting Chrysler/Fiat to do THAT with your 5 year old truck that you can read a newspaper thru the bumper or fender due to rust.
I still love my older Mopars, but until they can build something that (A) gets decent mileage or (B) does not rust into the ground,or (C) doesn't break the bank with stupid repairs, I will continue driving my "imports" that are built to last, right here in the good old U.S.A.


Toyota repaired or replaced the frames on one truck line of the 4 or 5 lines that used the same rotting frame. If you happened to own the trucks from that 1 line, you were good, but if you happened to own one of the other lines, you got screwed. The problem Toyota had was even the frames on southern non-rust belt trucks were rotting out. They sure got a lot of mileage out of replacing the frames on that one truck line though. All the trucks imported from Japan used that same frame, and only Toyota had to replace about 1/2 of the ones they sold, everyone else that got stuck with that frame got the big one. I'm betting if one dug deep enough, Toyota only replaced those frames because our government was about to force them to replace all the defective frames. By volunteering to replace the defective frames on that one truck line, our government probably let them slide on the rest of the frames.

One might also point out the even though body parts rot out on domestic trucks that reside in the rust belt, there wasn't wide spread frame rust within the first 4-5 years.

Somehow its OK for all of the frames to rot out on an import, if they replace 1/2 of them, but its a crime if some sheet metal rots out on 1/2 the rust belt domestic trucks during the same time frame.

Talk about a double standard! Gene


Not sure where you got this information from but we have never "repaired" any truck frames.Either the frame was replaced or the truck was bought back. I never heard of any "lines" that were replaced or some that weren't. I look at a frame and if it has a hole 10 mm or larger I take a picture and Toyota approves it. I have replaced probably close to 60 frames myself and have never been denied because of a certain line they come from.

Gus beer
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493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
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#2255779 - 02/18/17 09:48 PM Re: Interesting read on American made vehicles [Re: RS23U1G]
Rhinodart Offline
Rhinotruck

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 36265
Loc: Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Originally Posted By RS23U1G
RhinoJim...

I see you and Scott Smith made the new issue of Roland Power...


From Chicago last year...

Where they have some American made vehicles on display in Nov...


Thanks, I will have to get that issue, I keep forgetting to subscribe... realcrazy
_________________________
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

2018 Carlisle All-Chrysler Nationals July 13-14
Hurst Nationals held in conjunction includes
1968 Dodge Dart and Barracuda Hemi Super Stock Reunion!
Expo Center across from the main gate, register online!

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