Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238701
01/21/17 10:54 PM
01/21/17 10:54 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096 Australia
ozymaxwedge
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096
Australia
|
We fill to the bottom of the core plugs
1963 Plymouth Max Wedge 1971 Barracuda
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238703
01/21/17 10:57 PM
01/21/17 10:57 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096 Australia
ozymaxwedge
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096
Australia
|
But yes keeping it cool is a trick, I have a 528 on the street in a 71 Barracuda, it has a new large ali radiator with twin fans and I fitted a engine oil cooler but on a hot day on the highway it gets too hot.
1963 Plymouth Max Wedge 1971 Barracuda
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238731
01/21/17 11:34 PM
01/21/17 11:34 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448 Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
|
We have a high fill on the 440 block in the Barnyard Viper. Filled to the bottom of the water pump holes. We run an oil cooler, but still kills the oil on occasion. The water temp never gets over 200.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238784
01/22/17 12:52 AM
01/22/17 12:52 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
|
Water temp will not be an issue..Oil temp will. Less water to cool so those temps will or should not get really high. Oil temps will be the issue
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238800
01/22/17 01:11 AM
01/22/17 01:11 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
You need an 8 quart oil pan and a QUALITY oil.
That means an oil you probably can walk into a store and buy.
Not a fan of engine oil coolers.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238825
01/22/17 02:05 AM
01/22/17 02:05 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,156 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,156
Plymouth, MI
|
Oil coolers are fine if the pump, and lines to the cooler, are sized appropriately. Lots of OEM applications have them, especially the heavier duty engines. Combustion heat has to go places, and with a filled block it heads to the oil.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238833
01/22/17 02:29 AM
01/22/17 02:29 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448 Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
|
The thing with the truck was, an old race engine got converted to street duty. Boone would complain about killing the oil on Drag Week, saying that when it ran over 240 oil temp for a period of time, it would start to burn it, and then oil pressure would drop fifteen to twenty lbs.
He always ran Valvoline VR-1 50wt. in it.
When I got the truck down here in Phoenix, I added a plate cooler that was 2 inches longer than the previous one, and switched to Lucas Classic 20-50wt.
Even though I have seen oil temps in the 240-250 range, I've never experienced pressure drop (solid 65lbs.) or burning, so I'm going to chalk it up to better oil choice.
It's not ideal, but sometimes you just use what you have.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: ccdave]
#2238855
01/22/17 03:09 AM
01/22/17 03:09 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448 Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
|
I would find a different block and start over. Yeah, But I like driving them more than I like working on them, and as long as the old girl still slams me back in the seat, I'll keep beating on it! It's a 440 source flat-top 4.25 stroke kit. topped with the old Edelbrock RPM heads/Isky ductile rockers that I've used since '99. Not once piece on that engine owes us a darn thing!
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2238986
01/22/17 01:55 PM
01/22/17 01:55 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
|
As said, water temp won't be the problem. Oil temp will. Personally, I wouldn't do it on a street application. If you decide to do it, I wouldn't go over a half fill - and count on using an oil cooler. On the plus side, todays lubes ( especially synthetics ) can handle ( and are designed to run at ) much higher temps than in the past. Running oil temps in the 250 range are not uncommon.
Fastest 300
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: Crizila]
#2239019
01/22/17 02:54 PM
01/22/17 02:54 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
|
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
|
As said, water temp won't be the problem. Oil temp will. Personally, I wouldn't do it on a street application. If you decide to do it, I wouldn't go over a half fill - and count on using an oil cooler. On the plus side, todays lubes ( especially synthetics ) can handle ( and are designed to run at ) much higher temps than in the past. Running oil temps in the 250 range are not uncommon. Its already done. No turning back on that block now.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: ccdave]
#2239084
01/22/17 04:13 PM
01/22/17 04:13 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
The thing with hard block is your trying to stabilize the center area of the bores.. with a short fill your really not doing anything and IMO is a waste and just added weight.. so if you fill high enough to do what its intended to do then you run into the hot oil issue and IMO a oil cooler is needed.. even then the oil still gets fairly warm.. and as in any time the oil gets heated up it gets thinner(viscosity) and pressure gets lower... I have had a engine with it on the streets and it did get the oil hot.. so I dont add it to any street car engine... JMO.. but since its already done use a good synthetic oil and a cooler
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2239090
01/22/17 04:16 PM
01/22/17 04:16 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
|
Two things I've heard from respected sources on oil temps, petroleum based oils will start to change molecure structure, go bad, close to 300F and be destroying itself at 325F. Molil 1 synthetics oils are supoose to be good to 500F before being hurt On the blocks with fill I have seen a filled 340 block prepared by Greg Lunatic ( ) on the engine dyno at Pettis performance have 180F on the outside of the block at or below the fill line and 130 F above the fill line using a hand held infra red temp gun I had freshen it for the owners and built them a complete new R1 block non filled spare motor, guess which one made the most power
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2239099
01/22/17 04:23 PM
01/22/17 04:23 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
|
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
|
I'm not a big E85 guy as I went straight to alcohol but if I had a high performance street strip car I would be running E85. That would probably help your cooling issues too.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2239136
01/22/17 04:58 PM
01/22/17 04:58 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
|
FWIW our filled block has been together and in the car since 2001 and never had any issues. I run an oil cooler for insurance, never have seen oil temps over 230-240 and that is only after sustained highway jaunts. Car make 750+ HP fwiw as well and we never ran it without the cooler either. Saw no need wanted it just to make sure.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2239157
01/22/17 05:14 PM
01/22/17 05:14 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
I'm not a big E85 guy as I went straight to alcohol but if I had a high performance street strip car I would be running E85. That would probably help your cooling issues too. Cooling the water isnt a issue.. even with E-85 the cyl and head temps will be the same if your burning good and that transfers over to the oil in the most part
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: Jeremiah]
#2239248
01/22/17 06:35 PM
01/22/17 06:35 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
|
master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
|
Not a fan of engine oil coolers.
Please explain. Because most guys run a cooler that is too small, they use crap fittings and hose a mile long and, I'd bet very few here have ever checked the pressure drop across an oil cooler. I have. Unless it's very expensive, it's horrible. 8 quarts in the pan and a QUALITY oil and forget it.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: madscientist]
#2239271
01/22/17 06:58 PM
01/22/17 06:58 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
|
Doug my engine machinist forbid me to fill my 512 block even tho it was for strip only, told me the wall thickness is plenty suffiecent and that filling will change the temp at the lower end of the bore to cause piston scuffing and different wear charistics, now that said I did a half fill on my strip only 408 small block and have noticed that the oil pressure would drop quite a bit the more I ran it and had me concerned during round robin passes at the end of the class run's, is it because of the excess temp in the oil? don't know but that would make sense to me,,oh and by the way I ran Brad Penn 20W50 semi synthetic, proof will be in the teardown and freshen-up.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2239383
01/22/17 09:47 PM
01/22/17 09:47 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
one thing good about this issue is the thin cylinder shouldn't move around much, preventing any cracks. maybe I could add a power adder and put the boost right to it. with the aluminum caps I would think it should be a solid piece. JMO... but the filler shrinks a bit so dont think you wont crack a cyl.. I did it twice on the same cyl on the same block.. but it wasnt a tall fill.. so I dont think it was up where you need to help stiffen the cyl walls EDIT Thats why some dont see any change in the bore because it shrinks back a bit and doesnt PUSH on the walls
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 01/22/17 09:50 PM.
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2239497
01/23/17 12:12 AM
01/23/17 12:12 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096 Australia
ozymaxwedge
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,096
Australia
|
FWIW our filled block has been together and in the car since 2001 and never had any issues. I run an oil cooler for insurance, never have seen oil temps over 230-240 and that is only after sustained highway jaunts. Car make 750+ HP fwiw as well and we never ran it without the cooler either. Saw no need wanted it just to make sure. Spot on AL. This is exactly where I am with my street 528 Cuda, as you say sustained highway use get the temp up. I often wonder how many people are out there without a oil temp gauge ?? Dave If you don't run a cooler with all that fill your first 1/2 hour drive will see 300 on the oil temp.
1963 Plymouth Max Wedge 1971 Barracuda
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2239625
01/23/17 02:16 AM
01/23/17 02:16 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
I have a few gauges in the car. oil and trans temp are just a couple. Once I get it on the road I will let ya know what the temps go to before I add the cooler. Can I use a B&M supercooler for oil cooler? Look at a Hayden oil cooler... a trans cooler wont flow enough... the diameter isnt big enough.. the one block I bought had a crack in a cyl.. I was gonna just sleeve the one cyl but when I got around to it I busted that cyl out to see it was a filled block... the fill did shrink on it... dont know what brand it was filled with.. it wasnt much but it sure wasnt stopping a wall from cracking
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: ccdave]
#2239630
01/23/17 02:29 AM
01/23/17 02:29 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
|
Does the Hard Block indeed shrink and seperare from the cylinder walls after a few heat cycles as posted earlier? The manufacturers I looked at claim it does not????? Ya, they all claim there's doesn't shrink. I'd like to see proof. My machinist claims they don't shrink. True on the oil cooler thing "it aint rocket science". Many tow packages include them - most police package cars have them. Don't know how well these factory engineered packages would work under our type of racing conditions though. Pressure drop is definitely a consideration. FWIW, oil pressure on fire up @ idle with my 408 = 70psi. At 180 oil temp @ idle = 35psi. At 220 oil temp = 25psi.(10W30 synthetic).
Fastest 300
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: Crizila]
#2239635
01/23/17 02:38 AM
01/23/17 02:38 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
|
All cements based fillers shrink I've used Moroso block filler once and it shrank away from one freeze plug after it pushed it out enough to need replacing I've heard that "Hard Block" brand filler is a epoxy filler and doesn't need to cure 30 days and it doesn't shrink also I also heard it does expand and shrink I haven't used it so I don't know about it either way
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2239636
01/23/17 02:42 AM
01/23/17 02:42 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
|
"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,116
PA.
|
Over my 40 plus years of racing I wonder how much I've saved by not buying concrete to fill my blocks. LOL
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: dizuster]
#2242448
01/27/17 08:40 PM
01/27/17 08:40 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080 organ
maximum entropy
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
|
1) I filled the block AFTER it was machined... checking the bore before and after it didn't move hardly SQUAT...
I feel like with everything, there is a lot of people perpetuating old wives tales from things they've heard.
i have done this as well... on a tall deck big block, tall fill (bottom of the water pump holes). NO DIFFERENCE in the before and after measurements. at all. that engine lives on as we speak.
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2324535
06/21/17 03:21 AM
06/21/17 03:21 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
|
Not yet. Just installing 511 in the car now. Gonna run without a cooler to start. Will add cooler later. FWIW, I talked to Jason Pettis who builds/tunes some of the baddest cars around and he said "Good luck keeping the oil cool on the street even w/a cooler"..........1/2 fill maybe but full in his experience is hard to do if not impossible........
Last edited by Thumperdart; 06/21/17 03:24 AM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2324663
06/21/17 12:47 PM
06/21/17 12:47 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
|
I like dependable simplicity..........plus I drive mine more than most at this power level n/a and over heating weather oil or water is a no-no in my book..........
Last edited by Thumperdart; 06/21/17 01:23 PM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2324674
06/21/17 01:07 PM
06/21/17 01:07 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
|
On a low deck block, filling to the bottom of the water pump hole can often result in water flow problems through the block, since at that height the fill can get to the bottom of the head bolt bosses....... Which can restrict/block the coolant from reaching certain areas of the block.
On an RB block, that same level of fill would have the bolt bosses 3/4" farther away from the filler.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2324740
06/21/17 02:45 PM
06/21/17 02:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,479
So. Burlington, Vt.
|
That's a great little tidbit of info about the polished springs.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2324791
06/21/17 04:02 PM
06/21/17 04:02 PM
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,488 northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
|
master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,488
northern,Ohio,USA
|
what size oil cooler do ya think it would take to keep temps in check? fan? after the cost of all that you could just put your current cooler in a water tank circulated with coolent from the heater tubes from the water pump,A tank 1" bigger than the cooler on all sides.
Last edited by Clanton; 06/21/17 04:09 PM.
|
|
|
Re: How much is too much hard block
[Re: mopar dave]
#2324979
06/21/17 11:20 PM
06/21/17 11:20 PM
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,488 northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
|
master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,488
northern,Ohio,USA
|
i currently dont have any oil cooler. To save a few bucks you could get 1 off a motorcycle but cooling with water can be better than in air.
|
|
|
|
|