Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
#2215584
12/17/16 01:03 PM
12/17/16 01:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 248 near St Petersburg, FL
Lifsgrt
OP
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OP
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near St Petersburg, FL
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Gents, I have a good block to start with. I would like your feedback on the best option for strengthening a stock block for 900+ hp. I know a race block built to the task would be better, but I'm building a stock blcok. I know there are quite a few mfgrs, I'm looking for products you have used and kept the bottom end together until something else gave way. Main caps obviously, steel or aluminum? Girdle worth it? Mfgrs for both? This is another of those issues where I don't want to save a penny and waste a dollar, but don't want to spend bigger $$ when less will do with a margin of safety. Thanks in advance, Merry Christmas.
B3 1969 Charger R/T SE, 440/727 with 3:91s running 11.07@120
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2215600
12/17/16 01:25 PM
12/17/16 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,871 Smyrna, South Carolina
STEFF
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You're not going to like the answers as stock block and 900hp dont work together. Anything you do is a band aid and will fail. Just a matter of when, not if.....If you want to spend wisely, spend on an aftermarket block.
Last edited by STEFF; 12/17/16 01:26 PM.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2215647
12/17/16 02:25 PM
12/17/16 02:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
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Aluminum caps and longest, lightest, strongest rods available. Piston and pin weight at dead minimum. Maybe an SBC wrist pin?
[image][/image]
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: sgcuda]
#2215662
12/17/16 02:42 PM
12/17/16 02:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,151 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
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PA.
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900 horsepower with a stock block is doable but its doable for a limited amount of runs. Besides doing all the band-aids I would recommend finding a good church and Praying as often as possible. Throw salt over your right shoulder, and attend more car shows than races. Good-luck. Oh and PLEASE stay away from detonation and 7500 plus RPM. An engine diaper is also good insurance too.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2215685
12/17/16 03:14 PM
12/17/16 03:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257 gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
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As stated above get ready to spend some money. I started off with the original BCR girdle with the aluminum main caps, It looked so good I really had a hard time putting the oil pan on just covering up such a quality piece. This is NOT a bolt on system . As with any after market main cap install the block must be align bored. Then with the girdle, the bottom of the block [ pan rail ] and main caps must decked to make sure they are flat. The girdle is stud bolted to the pan rail and the girdle is stud bolted to the main caps tying it all together. Acid clean the block before any hard block is installed. This should be done and cured before any machining is done. I don't run anywhere near 900 Hp but it has held up for over 8 years for me
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2215841
12/17/16 07:25 PM
12/17/16 07:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Define good block please I like and use Ductile Iron main caps with ARP main studs on all my builds that will exceed 600 HP on pump gas. I also choose to use and build 400 blocks for any wedge build, regardless of fuel type used, for motors built to make over 700 HP also As already stated a good race block is the best choice to start with on any serious race build PM on this for more information and help, if you want it
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/17/16 07:27 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#2215871
12/17/16 08:40 PM
12/17/16 08:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio
Sport440
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Answering for the OP here so forgive me if I get it wrong, but he's building a Daytona clone for salt flat racing, and the class requires a stock block from an engine that was available in that chassis. Daytona's only came with 440's and 426 Hemi's so it has to be a 440 block, he can't use a thick web 400 230 block unfortunately. Will they be allowed to use power adders such as a turbo.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2215874
12/17/16 08:46 PM
12/17/16 08:46 PM
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crabman173
Unregistered
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crabman173
Unregistered
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900 wedge HP without power adders is almost impossible/ at least very hard without 4.5 inch bores and it is silly to think that a stock block will hold 900 HP for long no matter what the heck you do to it ( unless perfectly tuned turbo or the like) Please call Marsh Perf 336 283 0800 and get a new 440 block from him--he has two in stock ready to go --not cheap but hey he has the only two on the market I am guessing DRY SUMP DRY SUMP A Hemi is the right direction for that job but bet the bar is already set pretty darn high in that class Just no good answer on making that goal with a $50 block and spending a grand+++ to slightly improve it is still a crapshoot Wet sump in that application is rolling the dice
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2216179
12/18/16 01:15 PM
12/18/16 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Real funny, been reading David Vizards book on porting. He shows on one page a 410 cu in small block Chevy single four making in excess of 1000 hp and we can't even get close. What a shame or are we talked out of it before we even try? I assume this was a N/A engine... thats 2.44 HP per ci.. thats a ton.. sounds like one of those happy dynos
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2216302
12/18/16 04:07 PM
12/18/16 04:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158 Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Real funny, been reading David Vizards book on porting. He shows on one page a 410 cu in small block Chevy single four making in excess of 1000 hp and we can't even get close. What a shame or are we talked out of it before we even try? I assume this was a N/A engine... thats 2.44 HP per ci.. thats a ton.. sounds like one of those happy dynos When I read his carb book I really got that same feeling.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: slantzilla]
#2216310
12/18/16 04:18 PM
12/18/16 04:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,151 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
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High numbers sell ragazines. Rag a zines.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#2216321
12/18/16 04:29 PM
12/18/16 04:29 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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High numbers sell ragazines. Rag a zines. Yeah I know.. everyone thinks that if I do that I will end up with the same numbers.... NOT
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2216420
12/18/16 06:51 PM
12/18/16 06:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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Oregon
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The low deck 512 that I have in my street car uses a 230 block that has been cross bolted. We also opened up the mains to the larger 440 bearing size. Here is a picture:
Last edited by AndyF; 12/18/16 06:52 PM.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: racerx]
#2216514
12/18/16 08:57 PM
12/18/16 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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Andy is that a stock block? This is the first I have ever seen this on a stock block. how's it holding up for ya.? Yep, it is a 230 cold weather block with all the mods. Even has roller cam bearings. Not sure what to say about it holding up. The engine was built about 10 years ago but it doesn't have much run time on it. It is in my '65 Coronet which mostly just sits in the shop so it doesn't have many miles on it.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2216520
12/18/16 09:03 PM
12/18/16 09:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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I Win
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Even if I did drive it a ton I doubt I'd hurt the bottom end seeing how the engine has manifolds on it. Yep, cross bolted mains, roller cam bearings and manifolds - not exactly the best planned out combo........
Last edited by AndyF; 12/18/16 09:04 PM.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: AndyF]
#2216563
12/18/16 09:35 PM
12/18/16 09:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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Even if I did drive it a ton I doubt I'd hurt the bottom end seeing how the engine has manifolds on it. Yep, cross bolted mains, roller cam bearings and manifolds - not exactly the best planned out combo........ bet it's a hoot to drive tho.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2216625
12/18/16 10:26 PM
12/18/16 10:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
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HAHAHA Dayum Andy, mad scientist stuff you do kills me. Paranoia of failure can make one do some ridiculous stuff at times.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2216972
12/19/16 02:11 PM
12/19/16 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Says "AR Engineering" on it, so I'd say he made it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2217089
12/19/16 05:11 PM
12/19/16 05:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,131 New Lenox IL
cudadon
top fuel
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top fuel
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Says "AR Engineering" on it, so I'd say he made it. Pretty safe bet eh Dwayne! How are you my friend? Don
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: dwayne welder]
#2217195
12/19/16 07:45 PM
12/19/16 07:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989 Oregon
AndyF
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I Win
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Oregon
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Andy what kind of adapter you have on the oil pump? And do you make that or who does. Thanks That is a one of one custom part. It is basically an adapter for a remote filter and/or cooler but just without the internal 90 degree bends that all of the other adapters have. I was going to sell it as a product but decided it was too expensive to build in qty so I scrapped it. I use it all the time though, especially on the dyno.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: AndyF]
#2223519
12/30/16 06:38 PM
12/30/16 06:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395 The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic
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The Pale Blue Dot
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Well a super rigid billet dry sump pan might be an option. This one has 1/2 inch thick rails to help tie the bottom end together. I'd also probably use a cross bolt conversion if your block isn't cross bolted to start with. Who Makes that piece Andy? It's a beauty, I didn't see it on your site.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2223575
12/30/16 07:59 PM
12/30/16 07:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,205 New York
polyspheric
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If the purpose of the girdle is to prevent the pan rail and caps from moving, mild steel of the same thickness is far better than any aluminum.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2223795
12/31/16 01:48 AM
12/31/16 01:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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gregsdart
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I would start with a good center weighted, lightened to the max crank. I would stay with the small BB main bearing, and consider a small rod bearing like a 2.100. You can then get a fairly light custom rod to fit your combo. The center weight crank loads the main saddles more evenly, and I saw it eliminate cap walk on my cross bolted Megablock when I switched to one. As far as the rest of the shortblock, definitely use a partial fill, and a girdle with steel main caps would be on my list. I would also sneak up on the tuneup, starting conservatively, and never look for that last hp.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: polyspheric]
#2223996
12/31/16 01:25 PM
12/31/16 01:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,048 The Great White North
RAMM
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super stock
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If the purpose of the girdle is to prevent the pan rail and caps from moving, mild steel of the same thickness is far better than any aluminum. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is the way I see it as well. I had a slightly different take on it though and tried to incorporate the best of both aluminum (shock absorbing) and steel for(strength). As many have mentioned a light bob weight and a center counter weighted Bryant or Winberg crank will go a long way. Hardblock it halfway but start with a block that sonics well. I have found that the cylinder strength is a problem and have split cylinders at around the 800 hp range if you get into detonation. Not sure what cylinder head you are using but valve position sucks so bad in most of the inline valve OEM config'd offerings it wont be all that easy to make 900hp. If you could share the rules it would make helping easier. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2224027
12/31/16 02:12 PM
12/31/16 02:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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I like that set up. What did you do at the rear? My mods didn't involve a girdle, but used tool steel straps across all 5 main caps. I had seen caps crack apart, and figured the straps would hold it together if they failed. I had to make a reverse lip oil pan at the rear because of the studs/bolts. Held 1100hp (turbo). I agree with you on cylinder walls. Although mine never cracked, they were a bit barrel shaped(no block filler).
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: AndyF]
#2224080
12/31/16 03:17 PM
12/31/16 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Skeptic
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I made the dry sump pan myself. Any chance for a production run of those?
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2224129
12/31/16 05:04 PM
12/31/16 05:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Monte_Smith
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The hole is likely just weight, as it surely sacrifices nothing in that area for strength. My "race" blocks, I used to do the same thing as well as grinding off motor mount ears and anything else I could. Can save quite a few pounds but it's a lot of work. I have even seen blocks with that total corner cut off. How many bellhousing bolts do you really need? Where is the trans going? And how many guys have those holes stripped in their trans anyway? They don't do anything. Cut em off
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 12/31/16 05:06 PM.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2224191
12/31/16 06:35 PM
12/31/16 06:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,492 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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Admittedly, I have no experience building a motor for a land speed application, but using really light weight internals isn't how I think I'd go about it.
The parts need to be durable enough for an extended period of time under heavy load. IMO, this is more similar to a marine application than a drag motor. The acceleration rate is very low, so heavier parts should have almost zero affect on the speed of the vehicle.
I understand the concerns about the mains, but if a rod or wrist pin fails because they arent HD enough, it's all over.
There is going to need to be a balance found between the strength needed for the application vs how light the parts can be.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2224347
12/31/16 10:31 PM
12/31/16 10:31 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 625 Oakville, Wa
HOTMOPR
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mopar
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Oakville, Wa
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Ive been well over a 1000 for a couple years now. Its a 230 block partial fill. steel caps. 3/8" thick girdle, Studs everywhere the girdle. I have also had good results using 3m weatherstrip adhesive on the girdle to block rail. I apply it liberally install the girdle and then bolt it down for a few days to dry before installing the pan. I get zero leaks and no shifting from the girdle. Only sucks at refresh time.. My motor is also boosted so I only spin it to 6800.
67 Barracuda, 470" B, Glide, FuelTech FT600, Precision, Ptc, QA1, Calvert, Smith racecraft, Afco, Dana 60. 275 radials
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2224460
01/01/17 01:42 AM
01/01/17 01:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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That was always my question on the functionality of girdles. How solid can they be when sandwiched in between gaskets? I always felt that a girdle should be "glued" to the rail, but fastened directly with flush mount tapered locating bolts in an alternate pattern of the pan gasket, so that the girdle isn't dependent on being held in place by a compressible gasket/ hardware.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: Lifsgrt]
#2224512
01/01/17 02:25 AM
01/01/17 02:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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gregsdart
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Look at a KB double bolted block for an idea of what I think would help a stock block live. The double bolt , both top and side, main caps would have to be very large, because the only way to build it would be to build it all below the pan rail. that would create quite a massive add on structure, but if money is not an issue, well, thats' what racers do to win. The idea is to make the whole deal, main caps and what they are bolted to, so massive that any load put on a single bearing is also transferred to the adjacent two and beyond. That would greatly reduce the stress on the main web area of the cap at the center of the load.
Last edited by gregsdart; 01/01/17 02:33 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2225024
01/01/17 07:32 PM
01/01/17 07:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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That was always my question on the functionality of girdles. How solid can they be when sandwiched in between gaskets? I always felt that a girdle should be "glued" to the rail, but fastened directly with flush mount tapered locating bolts in an alternate pattern of the pan gasket, so that the girdle isn't dependent on being held in place by a compressible gasket/ hardware. there is no gasket between the girdle and the block on my BCR kit, I used a very light coat of grey silicon between the girdle and pan rail, all the perimeter bolts are studs and the nut's are counter sunk into the girdle, then there is the pan gasket and pan over top of those nut's and that is held in place by another set of nut's on the exsisting pan rail stud's, you can drop the pan and never disturb the girdle, nice well thought out system in my opinion.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: dartman366]
#2225071
01/01/17 09:17 PM
01/01/17 09:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
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That was always my question on the functionality of girdles. How solid can they be when sandwiched in between gaskets? I always felt that a girdle should be "glued" to the rail, but fastened directly with flush mount tapered locating bolts in an alternate pattern of the pan gasket, so that the girdle isn't dependent on being held in place by a compressible gasket/ hardware. there is no gasket between the girdle and the block on my BCR kit, I used a very light coat of grey silicon between the girdle and pan rail, all the perimeter bolts are studs and the nut's are counter sunk into the girdle, then there is the pan gasket and pan over top of those nut's and that is held in place by another set of nut's on the exsisting pan rail stud's, you can drop the pan and never disturb the girdle, nice well thought out system in my opinion. Ok. Pretty much what I was thinking on how it should be. Never used one myself. As for dad's setup there, Pretty dang nice. SKILZ!
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2225088
01/01/17 09:41 PM
01/01/17 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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I Live Here
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
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That was always my question on the functionality of girdles. How solid can they be when sandwiched in between gaskets? I always felt that a girdle should be "glued" to the rail, but fastened directly with flush mount tapered locating bolts in an alternate pattern of the pan gasket, so that the girdle isn't dependent on being held in place by a compressible gasket/ hardware. there is no gasket between the girdle and the block on my BCR kit, I used a very light coat of grey silicon between the girdle and pan rail, all the perimeter bolts are studs and the nut's are counter sunk into the girdle, then there is the pan gasket and pan over top of those nut's and that is held in place by another set of nut's on the exsisting pan rail stud's, you can drop the pan and never disturb the girdle, nice well thought out system in my opinion. Ok. Pretty much what I was thinking on how it should be. Never used one myself. As for dad's setup there, Pretty dang nice. SKILZ! he must be a machinist by trade?? look's pretty nice, kind of like the way the small blocks are, cap's are tied together but not to the block/panrail, I used a Hughes on my 408 and they just tie the caps together like that.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: Strong B-block bottom end for max hp effort
[Re: WedgeFED]
#2226095
01/03/17 01:45 AM
01/03/17 01:45 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 259 Scatchamatoon
Saskabusa
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 259
Scatchamatoon
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Something my Dad created. That look interesting. Was this ever run?
1974 Roadrunner
1967 Charger
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