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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2210508
12/09/16 03:26 AM
12/09/16 03:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
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IMO if done right as an all out effort I would say 1300+- is all you are gonna get. And that aint gonna come easy or cheap. After our initial dyno session we found some things we could improve on and feel there is another 60 or so left in mine.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2210526
12/09/16 04:36 AM
12/09/16 04:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
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what is max hp. can be expected of preditor heads I know of one that just made 1366hp. in NOS trim with out the bottle turned on, my 604" made 1282hp. and is not a max effort deal, just a high hp .bracket motor.... I think 1400hp might be achievable in a big CID, max effort N/A form....
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2210737
12/09/16 04:11 PM
12/09/16 04:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
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Well I guess we are doing something wrong or using a very stingy dyno. The facility we dyno at is a current Pro Stock competitor and winner. Even those guys were of the same mind as I am thinking 1300ish is about all there is there. I don't see 1400 being even a remote possibility, but happy to see myself proved wrong here. I ever seen one Predtor equipped car run a number even representative of even 1300hp, and have seen quite a few. In a car like mine 1300HP would net 7.0's at 190+, just have not seen those kind of numbers form many predators let alone 1400 which will net 6.80's at 196 or more.
Just saying aint seen it and have been around a few of them. The best ones I have seen have been 7.teens in pretty good air. Most seem to be in the .40/.50 area which is likely way closer to 1100 than it is 1300. I know of a dragster or two that are a bit faster but still not close to 1300. To me the proof is in the pudding, ET's and MPH never lie. Other than the nitrous assisted stuff, then I have seen a couple in the 6.80's on moderate nitrous use. Just my .02 fwiw
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2210968
12/09/16 11:55 PM
12/09/16 11:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
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Well, I feel confident in saying 1400 is a real possibility with these heads. Obviously nothing like the way indy sells them. I agree with ya Al indy's stuff on the the preds is darn good, but there's lots more potential in them, mostly due to valve size, and port volume. Also doing them from the hemi platform makes more room for more port.
Mine is the one boat is talking about. I wanted to wait till I'm done to get specific about final power, and combo, and run it in the car, because I feel the same. MPH is the best rep of true power.
Im out of town for the next few days, when I get home I'll post up the info as it is.The engine is at RK (proline's chassis guy) now being put in, and the crank center being lowered, and stainless headers, among a few other things.
The machine work was done at WJ's. The dyno was done else where, because wjs has been down, and kurt had 2 surgeries to have done, and my appointment at the chassis shop was due. The dyno is a depac auto load equipped, calibrated, and as accurate as I know there to be.
The combo is for nitrous, and that's why I feel 1400 is a real possibility. Here's what it consists of now.
KB tall deck block 11.225 with long sleeves(a major contributor to power as the skirt is completely in the bore.) Only part of the lower tang is even visible. No normal mopar stroker piston rock
54mm tool steel cam 288/314 I think on a 116, or 117. .535 lobes 1.9 tool steel rockers. ( will check card when home). Jesel 1 inch tool steel tappets, 5/8th ampco cup p rods with micro polished adjusters. WJ sorted out all the geometry.
Bryant 5.125 crank, sbc journal with center weights, and rem finished.
MGP 7.42 rods
Diamond flat tops 4.53 bore.043 .043 3mm custom oil ring Kurt had total seal make with 24 pounds. .250 wall coated H pins with buttons. The motor idles at 19 inches if that says anything about ring seal. Also the pistons are 38 in the hole with a .051 gasket, 78 cc heads
Sheet metal billet runner manifold, with 2 otb holley 1150 carbs.
The heads flowed 557.
As an NA Motor it would have way more compression, less than 8 pounds of ring tension,1mm 1mm 2mm rings, less piston to wall, and way, way less piston, rod weight, and 4.56 bore
Much more aggressive, and na conducive cam. More intake valve, less exhaust.
Shorter runners, smaller chambers, way more port volume tighter oil clearance for thin oil, way less pressure 100 pounds now.
Also would switch to C45 for at least 3 percent power.
A real pair of 2.250 or bigger blade carbs, ect ect.
The original plan was to dyno at wjs and keep opening the ports till it stopped helping. I had to get the car to the chassis shop with the motor, and leave town so it is what it is.
I may pull it back out and get after it, as the last pull was the best pull. The motor picked up every pull, still needed fuel, and we never moved the cam.
I have an na converter and may try that first, just for a real idea of what's there.
More to come.
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Re: preditor
[Re: dthemi]
#2210982
12/10/16 12:18 AM
12/10/16 12:18 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
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Well, I feel confident in saying 1400 is a real possibility with these heads. Obviously nothing like the way indy sells them. I agree with ya Al indy's stuff on the the preds is darn good, but there's lots more potential in them, mostly due to valve size, and port volume. Also doing them from the hemi platform makes more room for more port. Mine is the one boat is talking about. I wanted to wait till I'm done to get specific about final power, and combo, and run it in the car, because I feel the same. MPH is the best rep of true power. Im out of town for the next few days, when I get home I'll post up the info as it is.The engine is at RK (proline's chassis guy) now being put in, and the crank center being lowered, and stainless headers, among a few other things. The machine work was done at WJ's. The dyno was done else where, because wjs has been down, and kurt had 2 surgeries to have done, and my appointment at the chassis shop was due. The dyno is a depac auto load equipped, calibrated, and as accurate as I know there to be. The combo is for nitrous, and that's why I feel 1400 is a real possibility. Here's what it consists of now. KB tall deck block 11.225 with long sleeves(a major contributor to power as the skirt is completely in the bore.) Only part of the lower tang is even visible. No normal mopar stroker piston rock 54mm tool steel cam 288/314 I think on a 116, or 117. .535 lobes 1.9 tool steel rockers. ( will check card when home). Jesel 1 inch tool steel tappets, 5/8th ampco cup p rods with micro polished adjusters. WJ sorted out all the geometry. Bryant 5.125 crank, sbc journal with center weights, and rem finished. MGP 7.42 rods Diamond flat tops 4.53 bore.043 .043 3mm custom oil ring Kurt had total seal make with 24 pounds. .250 wall coated H pins with buttons. The motor idles at 19 inches if that says anything about ring seal. Also the pistons are 38 in the hole with a .051 gasket, 78 cc heads Sheet metal billet runner manifold, with 2 otb holley 1150 carbs. The heads flowed 557. As an NA Motor it would have way more compression, less than 8 pounds of ring tension,1mm 1mm 2mm rings, less piston to wall, and way, way less piston, rod weight, and 4.56 bore Much more aggressive, and na conducive cam. More intake valve, less exhaust. Shorter runners, smaller chambers, way more port volume tighter oil clearance for thin oil, way less pressure 100 pounds now. Also would switch to C23 for at least 3 percent power. A real pair of 2.250 or bigger blade carbs, ect ect. The original plan was to dyno at wjs and keep opening the ports till it stopped helping. I had to get the car to the chassis shop with the motor, and leave town so it is what it is. I may pull it back out and get after it, as the last pull was the best pull. The motor picked up every pull, still needed fuel, and we never moved the cam. I have an na converter and may try that first, just for a real idea of what's there. More to come.  
Last edited by boatracer572; 12/10/16 12:27 AM.
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2211272
12/10/16 03:25 PM
12/10/16 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
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I will happily be proven wrong. My junk was dynoed on a new DTS/Superflow that is one of the only ones on the west coast. The Dyno room designed and installed by Jason Line. It is not known as a happy piece at all, in fact more of a humbler than anything else. But once again dyno numbers are just a tool. I know what other motors making what we make have one. One in specific is the shop car at Mountain View, an ex Pro Stock car they use to burn in tires for Nobile as well as the youngest Mitsos runs in T/S on occasion. So I feel I have a good idea what my stuff should run once we get it all sorted out. The guys who run the shop have all been around PS for years and years, well except the dyno operator he is a former boat racer...
Just speaking for what I have witnessed with my own two eyes. I have a friend who has been running Predator stuff for years. Initially in TS and SC, now just SC as the TS car moved to Chemi stuff. His engine made 1219 on a fairly well known in the industry dyno(RWR). Car went 7.19(NA) best at sea level in 400' DA with a barometer right at 30.0 in Sonoma.I witnessed the dyno session as well as the passes at the track Otherwise the car was mired in the .20's. He later began to spray that saem combo and managed to run in the 6.90's. This result is pretty much all that I have sen from four different combos running Predators in Ex Pro Stock Dodge Stratus platforms. All of them built by well known shops all of them in the 645-655 range. Others I know less about that I have witnessed running in the 7.40-7.60 range NA
My heap is a nitrous deal as well. I do not plan to spray it at all. Everyone we have talked to, Mountain View, HRE, Slawko and Bullet feel there is 40-60hp left in what I have. That will leave mine short of even 1300(on Mountain Views dyno) and we feel we have some fairly smart people on board.
I cannot quantify HP in boats or truck pull stuff. I just don't know how. I can tell you I know someone who purchased a truck pull 1300+ HP deal and put it n his drag car. Lets just say if it made 1100 it was doing good. It is now with the same engine guy I used to get fixed. My point being I just don't know a way to quantify HP in those applications. At least at a dragstrip I can do the math.
I will be the first to admit I am wrong if someone makes 1400hp NA with a Predator. I juts don't see it happening. Once I see an NA deal running a respective ET and MPH for anything near 1400hp I will be the first to congratulate them. Be great if it can happen but just don't see it..Once again just my .02.
FWIW 2350lbs 1366hp should approaching 6.90 at 195...
Last edited by Al_Alguire; 12/10/16 03:33 PM.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: preditor
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2211386
12/10/16 06:50 PM
12/10/16 06:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
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unless you have your CNC indy heads finishe by some one other than indy, they flow somewhere around 510 cfm. Mine were touched up by HRD ( al dixion ) then had a CNC valve job by Joey Grose ( pro stock )now flow 545cfm, my motor was last pulled on a Dyno that is owned by a current pro stock team... made 1282 hp, you can take that to the bank, not 1100, Of course there is more to making up then flow numbers..... The guys that are in my circle are pretty sharp also, and feel that my 604 would make very close to 1300,only pulled it twice in its current configuration , I didn't want to ware it out for a number that means nothing....I absolutely agree with dhemi,there is hp on the table with smaller, less tension rings, bigger carbs , cam exc,exc...just dosnt make cents to have a all out effort n/a mill for a bracket motor......
Last edited by boatracer572; 12/11/16 04:28 AM.
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2211437
12/10/16 08:19 PM
12/10/16 08:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
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Well Al, the dyno we use is as accurate as I know of. Strain gauges are what they are. The depac control, and software is the predominant PS control ware. So as for being a happy dyno, I don't think that's the case.
I do believe as you, and most, that et, mph, is the only real test when it's said and done.
I still have no doubt 1400 is a real possibility. The fact that others haven't done it is no discouragement to me.
I may put an na converter in it as is just to see what gives. The nitrous gear adds a ton of weight id rather not carry. Should it perform as I expect, I will yank it, and make it a 1400 na motor if it's within my ability.
We'll see is all I can say.
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2211680
12/11/16 03:14 AM
12/11/16 03:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
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AS I say not trying to poo in anyones ice cream or start a pissing match. Just know of none anywhere near that power that I can quantify. My heads are not as from Indy, whey would anyone run anything as it comes from Indy. That would be beyond me. I am not speaking just of mine, in fact mine is a bracket piece. Built with good parts but certainly not trying rotate the earth. Reliable and repeatable is what I am after period.
I have been around a fair number done by guys who know what they are doing as well. I mean RWR and Rick Waters was the driving force behind the P5 stuff for Mopar. They did a number of Predator engines for a couple of friends of mine as customers. Just stating what I have seen from that dyno and the on track performance. I know Boatracer knows of another 604 and a 572. I know what those two made as well. Not like I'm using my own stuff as the be all and end all. Far from it.
I will say with enough cash just about anything is possible. Not sure the OP was asking for something that cost $60K plus either. Or maybe he was. Not sure why as there are way better options out there at $60K. I will also realy one last tidbit that came from a very well known and very respected cylinder head guy. He said the Predator was a kin to a poor mans Big Chief, which in the right hands can touch 1400hp with the 2.50 valve in an all out effort..
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2211779
12/11/16 12:58 PM
12/11/16 12:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
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I don't take anything here as pissing, just talking, and being honest about what we think. All as it should be, and nothing more.
As for Preds being a poor mans big chief, that's completely accurate. They can't touch a Thor Ford either, no matter the effort. The biggest valve we could effectively squeeze in these heads was a 2.48. The bigger valve really helped, and done as a na, I might go bigger to the expense of the exhaust. There is still lots to be gained with the heads I'm using now by opening the ports up more. That is the biggest draw back having so small a port. Wj said he's seen bigger ports in a small block lol.
You can call indy, and have everything you need to swap in a week. That's why I like these heads so much. Obviously if you want to really get after them you'll need to spend, wait, and work.
I built the 2 predators I have now because I want to run something readily available that fits all my stuff. I've spent a disproportional amount of money doing the latest one, because that's what makes me happy. There is no engine platform out of budget for me, but it's more fun, and interesting, to make the best of the common stuff. Buying an all billet, blown, injected hemi, or a current PS, or PM motor just lands me square in the middle of nowhere in a sea of same, just not for me. My biggest limitation is time. 10-15 trips year to the track is about all I can muster.
The previous 636 single 4 pred I built runs the number based on it making 1200 on the same dyno, and there are several changes I have to make to the car, to fully use the motor. Having that one in the car also supports my assertions about 1400 being real.
What other mopar head, that bolts onto the platform, that you can get tomorrow, that makes the power they do, is there?
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2212037
12/11/16 08:08 PM
12/11/16 08:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
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Im on your side trust me..There is a head out there that may come close. The new Indy 600-13X deal that is a joint venture between Best Machine Goodwin COmpetition and Michael Sanders. They claim it will give the Predator a run for its money. I have seen oone car run them that runs with us in NA 10.5. It runs ok for sure, But that is the first generation of that head and the newer ones are supposed to be better. I know what he has run and what the HP claim has been. Its WAY bigger than our SB and right at the same weight we run
FWIW we have considered mine a "beta test" piece from the get go. We wanted to try some stuff and decided to leave it as is and run it. We have an idea of changes that need to be made but I am just not rich enough to keep pouring money in to a bracket motor. But it will be better when we freshen it for sure.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: preditor
[Re: LA360]
#2212401
12/12/16 11:34 AM
12/12/16 11:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
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Being a Wedge head, it gets a weight break in some class racing. At least this is what I've read on here. Well, that makes perfect sense, thanks.
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Re: preditor
[Re: cesar perez]
#2212550
12/12/16 03:50 PM
12/12/16 03:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,355
Las Vegas
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The new 600-13X stuff was developed for NA 10.5 the class we run in with the small block. They have a tier based system. Category 1 heads have an measurement of the bottom of the intake port being 1" or less from the deck, Cat 2 heads are 1.001-2.0 from bottom of port to deck and Cat 3 are 2.001+ from deck to bottom of port. All that ONLY applies to Ford and Chevy combos right now. I am not sure they have looked at or bothered to measure the port opening to deck on these heads at all. The "loophole" is "Pontiac, Buick, Olds, AMC and Mopar cylinder heads must maintain the factory OEM port layout in order to receive a base weight deduction" which is for a Mopar a weight reduction of 125lbs, BOP get 175! I know there have been discussions about the weight brakes BOP are getting. But right now running that head gets you a 125lb weight break due to the stock port layout. Should be the same for the B1 family as well(less the TS head). Not sure the rules folks have looked at the actual head castings themselves and since there is only ONE Mopar running doubt they will. But since it is heads up stuff if that combo ever starts to win races the questions will be asked no doubt.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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