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preditor #2210481
12/09/16 02:34 AM
12/09/16 02:34 AM
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florida dade
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cesar perez Offline OP
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what is max hp. can be expected of preditor heads

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2210508
12/09/16 03:26 AM
12/09/16 03:26 AM
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Al_Alguire Offline
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IMO if done right as an all out effort I would say 1300+- is all you are gonna get. And that aint gonna come easy or cheap. After our initial dyno session we found some things we could improve on and feel there is another 60 or so left in mine.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2210526
12/09/16 04:36 AM
12/09/16 04:36 AM
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boatracer572 Offline
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Originally Posted By cesar perez
what is max hp. can be expected of preditor heads

I know of one that just made 1366hp. in NOS trim with out the bottle turned on, my 604" made 1282hp. and is not a max effort deal, just a high hp .bracket motor.... I think 1400hp might be achievable in a big CID, max effort N/A form....

10628880_10204809402027119_4273007350215502600_o.jpg
Re: preditor [Re: boatracer572] #2210659
12/09/16 01:54 PM
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Those engines are pretty awesome. I wonder what a 605 pump gas deal would net for HP......


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2210712
12/09/16 03:27 PM
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dthemi Offline
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1400 is for sure possible as an na motor, as well as 1100 foot pounds in na trim.

Tony pm your number to me. Your box is full, I'm out of town, with defective email

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2210737
12/09/16 04:11 PM
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Well I guess we are doing something wrong or using a very stingy dyno. The facility we dyno at is a current Pro Stock competitor and winner. Even those guys were of the same mind as I am thinking 1300ish is about all there is there. I don't see 1400 being even a remote possibility, but happy to see myself proved wrong here. I ever seen one Predtor equipped car run a number even representative of even 1300hp, and have seen quite a few. In a car like mine 1300HP would net 7.0's at 190+, just have not seen those kind of numbers form many predators let alone 1400 which will net 6.80's at 196 or more.

Just saying aint seen it and have been around a few of them. The best ones I have seen have been 7.teens in pretty good air. Most seem to be in the .40/.50 area which is likely way closer to 1100 than it is 1300. I know of a dragster or two that are a bit faster but still not close to 1300. To me the proof is in the pudding, ET's and MPH never lie. Other than the nitrous assisted stuff, then I have seen a couple in the 6.80's on moderate nitrous use. Just my .02 fwiw


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Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2210968
12/09/16 11:55 PM
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dthemi Offline
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Well, I feel confident in saying 1400 is a real possibility with these heads. Obviously nothing like the way indy sells them. I agree with ya Al indy's stuff on the the preds is darn good, but there's lots more potential in them, mostly due to valve size, and port volume. Also doing them from the hemi platform makes more room for more port.

Mine is the one boat is talking about. I wanted to wait till I'm done to get specific about final power, and combo, and run it in the car, because I feel the same. MPH is the best rep of true power.

Im out of town for the next few days, when I get home I'll post up the info as it is.The engine is at RK (proline's chassis guy) now being put in, and the crank center being lowered, and stainless headers, among a few other things.

The machine work was done at WJ's. The dyno was done else where, because wjs has been down, and kurt had 2 surgeries to have done, and my appointment at the chassis shop was due. The dyno is a depac auto load equipped, calibrated, and as accurate as I know there to be.

The combo is for nitrous, and that's why I feel 1400 is a real possibility. Here's what it consists of now.

KB tall deck block 11.225 with long sleeves(a major contributor to power as the skirt is completely in the bore.) Only part of the lower tang is even visible. No normal mopar stroker piston rock

54mm tool steel cam 288/314 I think on a 116, or 117. .535 lobes 1.9 tool steel rockers. ( will check card when home). Jesel 1 inch tool steel tappets, 5/8th ampco cup p rods with micro polished adjusters. WJ sorted out all the geometry.

Bryant 5.125 crank, sbc journal with center weights, and rem finished.

MGP 7.42 rods

Diamond flat tops 4.53 bore.043 .043 3mm custom oil ring Kurt had total seal make with 24 pounds. .250 wall coated H pins with buttons. The motor idles at 19 inches if that says anything about ring seal. Also the pistons are 38 in the hole with a .051 gasket, 78 cc heads

Sheet metal billet runner manifold, with 2 otb holley 1150 carbs.

The heads flowed 557.

As an NA Motor it would have way more compression, less than 8 pounds of ring tension,1mm 1mm 2mm rings, less piston to wall, and way, way less piston, rod weight, and 4.56 bore

Much more aggressive, and na conducive cam. More intake valve, less exhaust.

Shorter runners, smaller chambers, way more port volume tighter oil clearance for thin oil, way less pressure 100 pounds now.

Also would switch to C45 for at least 3 percent power.

A real pair of 2.250 or bigger blade carbs, ect ect.

The original plan was to dyno at wjs and keep opening the ports till it stopped helping. I had to get the car to the chassis shop with the motor, and leave town so it is what it is.

I may pull it back out and get after it, as the last pull was the best pull. The motor picked up every pull, still needed fuel, and we never moved the cam.

I have an na converter and may try that first, just for a real idea of what's there.

More to come.




Re: preditor [Re: dthemi] #2210982
12/10/16 12:18 AM
12/10/16 12:18 AM
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San Jose Ca.
boatracer572 Offline
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Originally Posted By dthemi
Well, I feel confident in saying 1400 is a real possibility with these heads. Obviously nothing like the way indy sells them. I agree with ya Al indy's stuff on the the preds is darn good, but there's lots more potential in them, mostly due to valve size, and port volume. Also doing them from the hemi platform makes more room for more port.

Mine is the one boat is talking about. I wanted to wait till I'm done to get specific about final power, and combo, and run it in the car, because I feel the same. MPH is the best rep of true power.

Im out of town for the next few days, when I get home I'll post up the info as it is.The engine is at RK (proline's chassis guy) now being put in, and the crank center being lowered, and stainless headers, among a few other things.

The machine work was done at WJ's. The dyno was done else where, because wjs has been down, and kurt had 2 surgeries to have done, and my appointment at the chassis shop was due. The dyno is a depac auto load equipped, calibrated, and as accurate as I know there to be.

The combo is for nitrous, and that's why I feel 1400 is a real possibility. Here's what it consists of now.

KB tall deck block 11.225 with long sleeves(a major contributor to power as the skirt is completely in the bore.) Only part of the lower tang is even visible. No normal mopar stroker piston rock

54mm tool steel cam 288/314 I think on a 116, or 117. .535 lobes 1.9 tool steel rockers. ( will check card when home). Jesel 1 inch tool steel tappets, 5/8th ampco cup p rods with micro polished adjusters. WJ sorted out all the geometry.

Bryant 5.125 crank, sbc journal with center weights, and rem finished.

MGP 7.42 rods

Diamond flat tops 4.53 bore.043 .043 3mm custom oil ring Kurt had total seal make with 24 pounds. .250 wall coated H pins with buttons. The motor idles at 19 inches if that says anything about ring seal. Also the pistons are 38 in the hole with a .051 gasket, 78 cc heads

Sheet metal billet runner manifold, with 2 otb holley 1150 carbs.

The heads flowed 557.

As an NA Motor it would have way more compression, less than 8 pounds of ring tension,1mm 1mm 2mm rings, less piston to wall, and way, way less piston, rod weight, and 4.56 bore

Much more aggressive, and na conducive cam. More intake valve, less exhaust.

Shorter runners, smaller chambers, way more port volume tighter oil clearance for thin oil, way less pressure 100 pounds now.

Also would switch to C23 for at least 3 percent power.

A real pair of 2.250 or bigger blade carbs, ect ect.

The original plan was to dyno at wjs and keep opening the ports till it stopped helping. I had to get the car to the chassis shop with the motor, and leave town so it is what it is.

I may pull it back out and get after it, as the last pull was the best pull. The motor picked up every pull, still needed fuel, and we never moved the cam.

I have an na converter and may try that first, just for a real idea of what's there.

More to come.

up









IMG_5646.jpg
Last edited by boatracer572; 12/10/16 12:27 AM.
Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2211272
12/10/16 03:25 PM
12/10/16 03:25 PM
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I will happily be proven wrong. My junk was dynoed on a new DTS/Superflow that is one of the only ones on the west coast. The Dyno room designed and installed by Jason Line. It is not known as a happy piece at all, in fact more of a humbler than anything else. But once again dyno numbers are just a tool. I know what other motors making what we make have one. One in specific is the shop car at Mountain View, an ex Pro Stock car they use to burn in tires for Nobile as well as the youngest Mitsos runs in T/S on occasion. So I feel I have a good idea what my stuff should run once we get it all sorted out. The guys who run the shop have all been around PS for years and years, well except the dyno operator he is a former boat racer...

Just speaking for what I have witnessed with my own two eyes. I have a friend who has been running Predator stuff for years. Initially in TS and SC, now just SC as the TS car moved to Chemi stuff. His engine made 1219 on a fairly well known in the industry dyno(RWR). Car went 7.19(NA) best at sea level in 400' DA with a barometer right at 30.0 in Sonoma.I witnessed the dyno session as well as the passes at the track Otherwise the car was mired in the .20's. He later began to spray that saem combo and managed to run in the 6.90's. This result is pretty much all that I have sen from four different combos running Predators in Ex Pro Stock Dodge Stratus platforms. All of them built by well known shops all of them in the 645-655 range. Others I know less about that I have witnessed running in the 7.40-7.60 range NA

My heap is a nitrous deal as well. I do not plan to spray it at all. Everyone we have talked to, Mountain View, HRE, Slawko and Bullet feel there is 40-60hp left in what I have. That will leave mine short of even 1300(on Mountain Views dyno) and we feel we have some fairly smart people on board.

I cannot quantify HP in boats or truck pull stuff. I just don't know how. I can tell you I know someone who purchased a truck pull 1300+ HP deal and put it n his drag car. Lets just say if it made 1100 it was doing good. It is now with the same engine guy I used to get fixed. My point being I just don't know a way to quantify HP in those applications. At least at a dragstrip I can do the math.

I will be the first to admit I am wrong if someone makes 1400hp NA with a Predator. I juts don't see it happening. Once I see an NA deal running a respective ET and MPH for anything near 1400hp I will be the first to congratulate them. Be great if it can happen but just don't see it..Once again just my .02.


FWIW 2350lbs 1366hp should approaching 6.90 at 195...

Last edited by Al_Alguire; 12/10/16 03:33 PM.

"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: preditor [Re: Al_Alguire] #2211386
12/10/16 06:50 PM
12/10/16 06:50 PM
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unless you have your CNC indy heads finishe by some one other than indy, they flow somewhere around 510 cfm. Mine were touched up by HRD ( al dixion ) then had a CNC valve job by Joey Grose ( pro stock )now flow 545cfm, my motor was last pulled on a Dyno that is owned by a current pro stock team... made 1282 hp, you can take that to the bank, not 1100, Of course there is more to making up then flow numbers..... The guys that are in my circle are pretty sharp also, and feel that my 604 would make very close to 1300,only pulled it twice in its current configuration , I didn't want to ware it out for a number that means nothing....I absolutely agree with dhemi,there is hp on the table with smaller, less tension rings, bigger carbs , cam exc,exc...just dosnt make cents to have a all out effort n/a mill for a bracket motor......

Last edited by boatracer572; 12/11/16 04:28 AM.
Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2211437
12/10/16 08:19 PM
12/10/16 08:19 PM
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dthemi Offline
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Well Al, the dyno we use is as accurate as I know of. Strain gauges are what they are. The depac control, and software is the predominant PS control ware. So as for being a happy dyno, I don't think that's the case.

I do believe as you, and most, that et, mph, is the only real test when it's said and done.

I still have no doubt 1400 is a real possibility. The fact that others haven't done it is no discouragement to me.

I may put an na converter in it as is just to see what gives. The nitrous gear adds a ton of weight id rather not carry. Should it perform as I expect, I will yank it, and make it a 1400 na motor if it's within my ability.

We'll see is all I can say.

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2211439
12/10/16 08:21 PM
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I

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2211680
12/11/16 03:14 AM
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AS I say not trying to poo in anyones ice cream or start a pissing match. Just know of none anywhere near that power that I can quantify. My heads are not as from Indy, whey would anyone run anything as it comes from Indy. That would be beyond me. I am not speaking just of mine, in fact mine is a bracket piece. Built with good parts but certainly not trying rotate the earth. Reliable and repeatable is what I am after period.

I have been around a fair number done by guys who know what they are doing as well. I mean RWR and Rick Waters was the driving force behind the P5 stuff for Mopar. They did a number of Predator engines for a couple of friends of mine as customers. Just stating what I have seen from that dyno and the on track performance. I know Boatracer knows of another 604 and a 572. I know what those two made as well. Not like I'm using my own stuff as the be all and end all. Far from it.

I will say with enough cash just about anything is possible. Not sure the OP was asking for something that cost $60K plus either. Or maybe he was. Not sure why as there are way better options out there at $60K. I will also realy one last tidbit that came from a very well known and very respected cylinder head guy. He said the Predator was a kin to a poor mans Big Chief, which in the right hands can touch 1400hp with the 2.50 valve in an all out effort..


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Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2211779
12/11/16 12:58 PM
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I don't take anything here as pissing, just talking, and being honest about what we think. All as it should be, and nothing more.

As for Preds being a poor mans big chief, that's completely accurate. They can't touch a Thor Ford either, no matter the effort. The biggest valve we could effectively squeeze in these heads was a 2.48. The bigger valve really helped, and done as a na, I might go bigger to the expense of the exhaust. There is still lots to be gained with the heads I'm using now by opening the ports up more. That is the biggest draw back having so small a port. Wj said he's seen bigger ports in a small block lol.

You can call indy, and have everything you need to swap in a week. That's why I like these heads so much. Obviously if you want to really get after them you'll need to spend, wait, and work.

I built the 2 predators I have now because I want to run something readily available that fits all my stuff. I've spent a disproportional amount of money doing the latest one, because that's what makes me happy. There is no engine platform out of budget for me, but it's more fun, and interesting, to make the best of the common stuff. Buying an all billet, blown, injected hemi, or a current PS, or PM motor just lands me square in the middle of nowhere in a sea of same, just not for me. My biggest limitation is time. 10-15 trips year to the track is about all I can muster.

The previous 636 single 4 pred I built runs the number based on it making 1200 on the same dyno, and there are several changes I have to make to the car, to fully use the motor. Having that one in the car also supports my assertions about 1400 being real.

What other mopar head, that bolts onto the platform, that you can get tomorrow, that makes the power they do, is there?

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2212037
12/11/16 08:08 PM
12/11/16 08:08 PM
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Im on your side trust me..There is a head out there that may come close. The new Indy 600-13X deal that is a joint venture between Best Machine Goodwin COmpetition and Michael Sanders. They claim it will give the Predator a run for its money. I have seen oone car run them that runs with us in NA 10.5. It runs ok for sure, But that is the first generation of that head and the newer ones are supposed to be better. I know what he has run and what the HP claim has been. Its WAY bigger than our SB and right at the same weight we run

FWIW we have considered mine a "beta test" piece from the get go. We wanted to try some stuff and decided to leave it as is and run it. We have an idea of changes that need to be made but I am just not rich enough to keep pouring money in to a bracket motor. But it will be better when we freshen it for sure.


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Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2212272
12/12/16 01:08 AM
12/12/16 01:08 AM
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That sounds awesome. Another head in the mix just makes the pot sweeter for all the mopar racers. I've gotten just totally burned out, and frustrated trying to get the stuff for a Hemi. No castings, no rockers, no blocks and on and on and on. I get a big kick out of trying stuff. Being able to get parts the minute something occurs to me to try, would be cool.

Just curious why they are developing a new head instead of continuing with the predator? Do they feel there's more potential there, or is it for reasons of propriety? I've never seen the 600's, do tell!

Re: preditor [Re: dthemi] #2212343
12/12/16 03:48 AM
12/12/16 03:48 AM
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Being a Wedge head, it gets a weight break in some class racing. At least this is what I've read on here.


Alan Jones
Re: preditor [Re: LA360] #2212401
12/12/16 11:34 AM
12/12/16 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted By LA360
Being a Wedge head, it gets a weight break in some class racing. At least this is what I've read on here.


Well, that makes perfect sense, thanks.

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2212479
12/12/16 01:59 PM
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The BEST Predator head will not be as good as a pretty good big chief and you will NEVER have the bore size of the Chevy. A 1400hp big chief motor is a serious effort piece and you don't see many of those either. I'm with Al. Going to have to see some 6.80 time slips from a Predator motor to buy that number.

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2212550
12/12/16 03:50 PM
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The new 600-13X stuff was developed for NA 10.5 the class we run in with the small block. They have a tier based system. Category 1 heads have an measurement of the bottom of the intake port being 1" or less from the deck, Cat 2 heads are 1.001-2.0 from bottom of port to deck and Cat 3 are 2.001+ from deck to bottom of port. All that ONLY applies to Ford and Chevy combos right now. I am not sure they have looked at or bothered to measure the port opening to deck on these heads at all. The "loophole" is "Pontiac, Buick, Olds, AMC and Mopar cylinder heads must maintain the factory OEM port layout in order to receive a base weight deduction" which is for a Mopar a weight reduction of 125lbs, BOP get 175! I know there have been discussions about the weight brakes BOP are getting. But right now running that head gets you a 125lb weight break due to the stock port layout. Should be the same for the B1 family as well(less the TS head). Not sure the rules folks have looked at the actual head castings themselves and since there is only ONE Mopar running doubt they will. But since it is heads up stuff if that combo ever starts to win races the questions will be asked no doubt.


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Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2212757
12/12/16 09:13 PM
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I saw a small block car in that class, and if I'm not mistaken he was running 7.8 NA. Is that where the bar is set now, or are guys going faster? For as few mopes as there are in it, you'd think they'd leave the head class deal alone for mopes till they get up in the field.

Re: preditor [Re: dthemi] #2212847
12/12/16 10:54 PM
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[quote=dthemi]1400 is for sure possible as an na motor, as well as 1100 foot pounds in na trim.

And santa is coming in 2 weeks!!!!!

All joking aside, I am not a believer. Doing a mild pump gas deal pred motor now, shooting for 900-950. every day the dyno means less to me. MPH is the real report card!

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2212986
12/13/16 02:10 AM
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Well, I'm glad I don't limit what I try to do based on what you guys think is possible lol

When it takes a serious effort to make 1400 with a tall deck 660 Inch big cheif, I'd say it's time to re evaluate what's considered a serious effot. I wouldn't be happy with a 1400hp big cheif at that size, or quality nor with a similar Thor.

The motor is going in the car as is now being a nitrous motor. When the car is finished, and i catch a break in weather, and schedule I'll be renting SGMP, or commerce to test. Any of you nay, or hey sayers will be welcome to attend to make sure it's all on the level. You'll have plenty of notice.

Monte, you should of any one here, know what jet, makes what power. Since it's going to be on spray, you can inspect the tune to see there's no funny business, if you have time, or interest. WJ will be there to sort the chassis. So it'll either run what it should, or it won't lol.


All the power given up to make the motor suitable for nitrous, should make it more than evident that a 1400 hp predator is more than possible. Again, assuming it runs what it should as is.

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2213005
12/13/16 02:49 AM
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No reason for me to see it. That is a nitrous motor and as such has no real relevance to current discussion.

I don't doubt anything you think you can do Darren, I just don't happen to agree. I think there is zero chance of a 650" Predator headed motor making 1400 NA horsepower on a 4.560 bore, but that's only my opinion

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2213025
12/13/16 04:08 AM
12/13/16 04:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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Like I said before not trying to start a pi$$ing match at all. I am on your side for sure. For me spending that kind of money to try and make this deal even close to that number is something I will NOT even attempt. Way better options out there for a purpose built race motor for sure. As you said earlier just all our personal opinions.

I think as Monte has pointed out the bore is the biggest issue for me thinking there is that much to be had. You meantioned earler limited valve sizing, on mine we though 2.450" was doable, but again mine is a bracket piece plain and simple. But mine is a nitrous deal too. Having said that I don't think what I have can make 1300hp. Just my opinion but hey I would love to be wrong, I already have the stuff and am willing to refine what's there a bit more to see if what if is anything left.

I hope you do well testing your car. And I have no doubt it will run well. You have access to people and help that simply put most of us cannot access. Heck I am lucky to get a decent facility to run on out here most the time. Other than a couple of division races the track simply is not very good. There is no opportunity for the common man to rent LVMS either right now let alone have the caliber of people around you do. So for my deal it's gonna take some time for it to get sorted out, just the way it is.

not listening to others opinions or rather not letting them "get in your way" is how things in this hobby move forward. Considering many Mopar people that see my engine ask me "why I have a chevy engine". Goes to show just how far some things have come. So I say more power to you. We all have our opinions of what is possible. Mine is based off what I have seen others do with similar equipment nothing more. Lord knows I am not an expert just report what I see. More power to you and I wish you nothing but the best. And if anyone can do it I would imagine you would be that guy.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: preditor [Re: dthemi] #2213028
12/13/16 04:13 AM
12/13/16 04:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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Originally Posted By dthemi
I saw a small block car in that class, and if I'm not mistaken he was running 7.8 NA. Is that where the bar is set now, or are guys going faster? For as few mopes as there are in it, you'd think they'd leave the head class deal alone for mopes till they get up in the field.


Yes the fastest cars in the class have dipped into the 7.80's. But in really good air. One has been .70's, and likely there will be a second soon to join him. But the .70 run was in winter testing so who knows what that means, could have been light great air who knows. It has not repeated that number at an NMCA race. I am sure, or at least hope it will continue to evolve. Most of the cars are small blocks, small block Fords to be exact. But there is a Pontiac that is really close for sure. There is really only one Mopar out there anymore and it is not in a Mopar car. It is Mr Sanders Mustang with the 600-13x head, IIRC it is a 565" deal or close to that. There are some great people ion the class, the rules are slow to be tweaked for sure. Fords were Dominant for the most part, the one Pontiac has been running well the last two years for sure.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: preditor [Re: Al_Alguire] #2213204
12/13/16 10:57 AM
12/13/16 10:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi Offline
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Originally Posted By Al_Alguire
Originally Posted By dthemi
I saw a small block car in that class, and if I'm not mistaken he was running 7.8 NA. Is that where the bar is set now, or are guys going faster? For as few mopes as there are in it, you'd think they'd leave the head class deal alone for mopes till they get up in the field.


Yes the fastest cars in the class have dipped into the 7.80's. But in really good air. One has been .70's, and likely there will be a second soon to join him. But the .70 run was in winter testing so who knows what that means, could have been light great air who knows. It has not repeated that number at an NMCA race. I am sure, or at least hope it will continue to evolve. Most of the cars are small blocks, small block Fords to be exact. But there is a Pontiac that is really close for sure. There is really only one Mopar out there anymore and it is not in a Mopar car. It is Mr Sanders Mustang with the 600-13x head, IIRC it is a 565" deal or close to that. There are some great people ion the class, the rules are slow to be tweaked for sure. Fords were Dominant for the most part, the one Pontiac has been running well the last two years for sure.



That's flying for a heavy NA car. Looks like everything else where the car has to be totally specific to the class. Almost like they've arranged the rules to suit small block cars similar in size, and weight to the mustangs. That would make sense too since there are more drag mustangs than any other platform.

The best head out there IMO for classification closet to factory is the latest port design A 460 ford head. They're putting a port in that head now that's better than any C head out there. I saw an A head 536 single 4 make 1170, and a 514 make 1105.


Re: preditor [Re: Monte_Smith] #2213216
12/13/16 11:21 AM
12/13/16 11:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097
back in Georgia
dthemi Offline
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
No reason for me to see it. That is a nitrous motor and as such has no real relevance to current discussion.

I don't doubt anything you think you can do Darren, I just don't happen to agree. I think there is zero chance of a 650" Predator headed motor making 1400 NA horsepower on a 4.560 bore, but that's only my opinion


Relevant to the discussion in that we're talking about what the motor made as a nitrous deal. Taking that into consideration, and knowing the power difference there is between NA effort, and nitrous sacrifices. Typically in this size motor we see 60-80 hp difference NA to nitrous. That's from where my assertions about 1400 are coming from. After I wear on this combo for a few months, I'll be pulling it, and re doing it as NA to see if that mark can be hit. I'm with everyone here in that ET, or MPH can't be tricked, fooled, or altered. The single 4 pred I did is running what it should based on making 1200 in an all steel 66 belvedere.

I always have at couple, or more engines underway all the time. Some of them are disappointments, some what I expect, and on the rare occasion way better than I expected. This one is one of those, and it's been quite a while since hitting on one. The not so great ones either get redone, or given to guys who are having trouble financially for reasons I see that are beyond their control (sick kids, injury, lost jobs ect). I donate around 50 grand a year in parts, engines, trans, electronics ect, to good guys so I can write it off, and not get buried in the crap I buy, or build. I even donated the motor I won the MM engine challenge with. What I'm saying is I don't just build an engine every so often. I'm constantly at it, trying new stuff, and hitting, and missing.

My excitement about these heads isn't a hey look at me. I want mopar guys to be fast, and this is the best gig I see going for us right now. The more people running them, the more we'll collectively learn. For me I see it being done. Not easily, or cheaply, but what ever is? NA it'll 680 inch

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2213326
12/13/16 02:53 PM
12/13/16 02:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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The NA10.5 stuff is generally 400-420 cubes. The top cars making 1100ish hp. Blankenships new piece is over that number or so I hear. If that is the case then there is likely one more SBF that is close.

I agree about having a head available that can make power. Guess we will all see how much in the end. I will be watching for sure. This will likely be the last of it for me, we will likely change some things when we freshen it up that I feel are costing us some power and that will likely be it for me. But it will have to wait for sure. For now its time to run the car and see what we have and do some racing. Afterall it is just a bracket motor.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2213432
12/13/16 06:17 PM
12/13/16 06:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
C
camastomcat Offline
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What is the average weight of the 10.5 cars? I hate to be high jacking but not sure if starting a new thread is worth it as many of them are not Mopar.

Re: preditor [Re: dthemi] #2213625
12/13/16 11:44 PM
12/13/16 11:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
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[quote=dthemi]Well, I'm glad I don't limit what I try to do based on what you guys think is possible lol





up sent you a pm Darren

IMG_5646.jpg
Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2213749
12/14/16 03:40 AM
12/14/16 03:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,304
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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Tom depends on the combo really but most are 2700-3000. Likely one or two just over 3000 and a couple under 2700. Most guys opt for 400+- cubes in a small block which keeps them above 2700. BUt some of the guys who crossover from comp are lighter and come in a 358 or fewer cubes. We have one on the west coast at 331 cubes. That car runs 8.teens pretty consistently. The car we run is 2870 at 417 cubes on the east coast a tad bit lighter out west. Although this year looks like we will be the same in both places. There are a few things that add weight by rule to the combos and some that subtract weight. Not just heads, oil system, intake material, number of carbs, trans, resr suspension etc. Some combos are more friendly on weight than others for sure. Originally the rules package we use now was written by a group of SB Ford guys. So they had a decided advantage, although I will say NMCA is racer friendly and has done a good job at evening up the rules package each year.

A pic of the powerplant and you can see the intake dilemma and one of the car




"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2213815
12/14/16 12:00 PM
12/14/16 12:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
C
camastomcat Offline
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That looks like fun if a guy had time, know how, and money. Mostly know how!

Re: preditor [Re: dthemi] #2214210
12/15/16 01:46 AM
12/15/16 01:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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Originally Posted By dthemi
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
No reason for me to see it. That is a nitrous motor and as such has no real relevance to current discussion.

I don't doubt anything you think you can do Darren, I just don't happen to agree. I think there is zero chance of a 650" Predator headed motor making 1400 NA horsepower on a 4.560 bore, but that's only my opinion


Relevant to the discussion in that we're talking about what the motor made as a nitrous deal. Taking that into consideration, and knowing the power difference there is between NA effort, and nitrous sacrifices. Typically in this size motor we see 60-80 hp difference NA to nitrous. That's from where my assertions about 1400 are coming from. After I wear on this combo for a few months, I'll be pulling it, and re doing it as NA to see if that mark can be hit. I'm with everyone here in that ET, or MPH can't be tricked, fooled, or altered. The single 4 pred I did is running what it should based on making 1200 in an all steel 66 belvedere.

I always have at couple, or more engines underway all the time. Some of them are disappointments, some what I expect, and on the rare occasion way better than I expected. This one is one of those, and it's been quite a while since hitting on one. The not so great ones either get redone, or given to guys who are having trouble financially for reasons I see that are beyond their control (sick kids, injury, lost jobs ect). I donate around 50 grand a year in parts, engines, trans, electronics ect, to good guys so I can write it off, and not get buried in the crap I buy, or build. I even donated the motor I won the MM engine challenge with. What I'm saying is I don't just build an engine every so often. I'm constantly at it, trying new stuff, and hitting, and missing.

My excitement about these heads isn't a hey look at me. I want mopar guys to be fast, and this is the best gig I see going for us right now. The more people running them, the more we'll collectively learn. For me I see it being done. Not easily, or cheaply, but what ever is? NA it'll 680 inch
Well Darren...........you decode you want to give that nitrous Predator motor away, or just let a man borrow it, we can put it in the GTX and beat the snot out of it..........LOL!!!

Re: preditor [Re: cesar perez] #2216742
12/19/16 12:38 AM
12/19/16 12:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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camastomcat Offline
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Mine isn't anything like Al's, Tony's, or Darren's, but it's finally in the car. It made 1199 HP on the dyno, so I am hoping it runs like it dynoed. We'll see. It was a PITA trying to fit everything in my dragster and will make the car weigh 2020#'s instead of 1870#'s, so I'm hoping it runs 7.40's in 7000 + corrected altitude, but doubt it will. We are usually .4-.5 slow here by comparison to sea level. It should run 7.20 or better in Las Vegas. I'll be there in the spring.

Predator1.jpgPredator4.jpgPredator3.jpg
Last edited by camastomcat; 12/19/16 12:40 AM.
Re: preditor [Re: camastomcat] #2216780
12/19/16 02:08 AM
12/19/16 02:08 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,379
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Originally Posted By camastomcat
Mine isn't anything like Al's, Tony's, or Darren's, but it's finally in the car. It made 1199 HP on the dyno, so I am hoping it runs like it dynoed. We'll see. It was a PITA trying to fit everything in my dragster and will make the car weigh 2020#'s instead of 1870#'s, so I'm hoping it runs 7.40's in 7000 + corrected altitude, but doubt it will. We are usually .4-.5 slow here by comparison to sea level. It should run 7.20 or better in Las Vegas. I'll be there in the spring.


Could have gone with an aluminum block on that and shaved some weight, no? I love the cooling effect of the aluminum blocks and the difference in weight.


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: preditor [Re: Dragula] #2216791
12/19/16 02:18 AM
12/19/16 02:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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camastomcat Offline
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Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By Dragula
Originally Posted By camastomcat
Mine isn't anything like Al's, Tony's, or Darren's, but it's finally in the car. It made 1199 HP on the dyno, so I am hoping it runs like it dynoed. We'll see. It was a PITA trying to fit everything in my dragster and will make the car weigh 2020#'s instead of 1870#'s, so I'm hoping it runs 7.40's in 7000 + corrected altitude, but doubt it will. We are usually .4-.5 slow here by comparison to sea level. It should run 7.20 or better in Las Vegas. I'll be there in the spring.


Could have gone with an aluminum block on that and shaved some weight, no? I love the cooling effect of the aluminum blocks and the difference in weight.


I could have but didn't have enough money at the time. My 572 is aluminum. I may buy another block for this one, if the source is reliable and doesn't expect money up front. I bought this block after I almost send KB a $3000 deposit. Sure glad I did.

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