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Re: paint job on a budget!? #23130
05/24/06 07:34 AM
05/24/06 07:34 AM

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Hey Jax--you only want to use that rusty metal primer on metal that is actually rusted. It contains fish oil and will not be suitable on clean metal. If the oil isn't able to soak into the rusty metal it will wick back up into your finish coat. Use clean metal primer on non-heavily rusted metal. That's what I'm going to use, and I'll roll it on.




Conner, I don't get that, why on earth would they make a primer that doesn't work with their own paint? Just doesn't make sense to me. Is this from experience or heresay? I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't see the value in such a product as primer is generally accepted as a base for other paint layers. I looked at a can of it about a week ago and don't remember seeing a warning saying anything like "use only with XXXXXX topcoat". Thanks for the warning though, I'll investigate it before proceeding.

Re: paint job on a budget!? #23131
05/24/06 09:58 AM
05/24/06 09:58 AM

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Whew! I finally finshed this ginormous thread. I was curious why no one elsed tried the PENETROL...

Seems to me the pics looked really good. Did I miss something?




(read on for the PENETROL reference...)

It's been a little slow in coming but I did finally finished the "Lil' Red Mower" project. Here's a photo of the overall outcome:



And another shot taken from the side:



What's important to note here is the amount of "orange peel" you see in the BEFORE photos. This was the factory coating, and I did NOT wetsand it down smooth before painting. I gave it a light, dry once-over with 400 grit to give the Rustoleum something to grab onto.

Next up is another set of photos taken straight on (excuse the model, please!). Again, note the amount of peel in the BEFORE photo when making judgements on the AFTER:



To be quite honest, nearing the end of this project, I was not very happy with the amount of orange peel I was seeing, that was until I pulled out the photos of the original and compared the two. Here's yet another taken from the other side, showing a little more in detail the surface reflections:



Okay, last set of photos and then some information and observations. This last set shows the right and left fenders of the mower. The photo on the RIGHT shows the "standard" roller method, while the photo on the LEFT shows the fender as painted with the foam BRUSH instead of the roller:



Now for the important parts:

This is now the second project using the Rustoleum-Roller method and I was hoping to accomplish two things:

1) to see if I've learned enough on the first project and not to repeat the same mistakes (paint too thick, runs, etc)

2) to determine the long term (outdoor) viability of the paint under abusive conditions (never getting washed or waxed, lotsa debris, Florida summer sun and moisture) It is a mower after all.

Just as I was about to get started, the PENETROL issue came up so I decided to give it a try. My initial reaction was that I didn't like it... at all. Ultimately, it layed down and dried just as the mineral spirits dilution did, but it was considerably slower to dry, and more importantly, it was considerably slower to release the tiny bubbles. On a project this small (the largest panel is only 2'x3') it was just too nerve wracking for me to stand and stare at all the little bubbles and to have to wait to roller them out. With the mineral spritis, I was able to give a light puff immediately after spreading the paint and they were gone. With the penetrol, air did not remove them, and it too as many as 15-20 minutes of waiting for the paint to reach that "magic" moment of dryness when it could be light rollered to remove the bubbles without creating new ones. I simply found this very frustrating.

Let's speed things up here:

2 coats - wetsanded with 400
2 more coats - wetsanded again with 400
2 more coats - wetsanded AGAIN with 400!

Here's where I diverged (quite a bit, really) from "the plan", but it might answer quite a few questions that some have been wondering about. I decided I didn't want to spend the required time to do the final wetsanding and buffing. Wetsanding on the mower was not so easy because the original panels were not perfect to begin with, and the mower also got pretty battered during the last two hurricane seasons. I found
myself sanding around high spot after high spot and finally just decided it was not worth the time - I'd learned enough. Anyway...

I decided to just go with one last thin coat and leave it as so, no matter how it came out (bugs, hairs, etc... again, it's a mower. Relax.) Problem was, I was out of the undiluted paint, but still had a jar of the PENETROL mix left. Waste not, want not - if figured it would give me a second chance at working with the PENETROL to see if my opinion changed at all. The short answer to that is... no. Not really. I still found it frustratingly slow, BUT... I think if you had to do a large panel, REALLY large, it might actually be of help in keeping the paint from drying TOO fast - if that is your particular problem.

The other thing I tried was to coat one fender using the foam brush instead of the roller. I had noticed on the foot panels (which had been done with several coats using only the brush) that I was seeing no orange peel at all, so I wondered what it would look like on a panel. The answer to that is... surprisingly, not bad! The paint levels out amazingly well, and although you can see very slight "streaks" in the paint, it is certainly no greater or of more texture than the orange peel effect from the roller. And even more amazing is that the brushed on paint did NOT sag on the panel surface that had an approximate slope of 45 degrees. That being said, I would not feel confident that the same would happen on a true vertical panel (90 degree - door, eg.). That's another experiment for later.

Overall thoughts and observations:
I'm happy with the results. It's not a mirror finish, but then again it wasn't to begin with si it's hard for me to judge just how much of the final orange peel is related to the paint, or to the original surface texture. This issue has been somewhat problematic for me, I see some of the mirror-like finished here on the thread, yet I seem to be getting considerably more orange peel others. I do not think it's an issue of paint thickness, I'm putting it on about as thin as I can get it without it running. OTOH, when I look at the final finish (even in it's current unsanded-unpolished state), it certainly looks no worse than your average $500-$700 single stage paint job - orange peel included.

The last set of questions will be answered over time, as I use and abuse the mower over the coming summer. I'm hopefull that the paint will hold up - red paint in Florida is the first color to fade. Don't ask me why, but it's a fact born out by the countless number of faded red cars around town (silver too... weird, huh?)

I think the next project/experiment will be to get a donor panel (hood, trunk, etc) and work on the "perfect" finish - see if I can get that mirror shine like others have. The difference will be that I will try to start with as smooth a panel as I hope to have in the final results. I'm sure I missed alot in writing this up, but hope it helps answer some questions.

Re: paint job on a budget!? #23132
05/24/06 10:09 AM
05/24/06 10:09 AM

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As an added note, I found this photo which was taken after the 4th coat, but BERFORE wetsanding. Compare this with the final results (see above) and note just how much the wetsanding knocks down the orange peel.



One final thought (promise):
Seeing the images all together, especially seeing the image above before wetsanding, I really think the results from a more thorough wetsand (400, 800, 1200, 2000) and then one FINAL thin coat might produce some very nice results.

Hmmmm.....

Last edited by Ricklandia; 05/24/06 10:13 AM.
Re: paint job on a budget!? #23133
05/24/06 10:48 AM
05/24/06 10:48 AM
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nice work rick, ever think about taking up a fridge and mower restoration service??? seems like you've got the process down pat, and i can tell from your pics that you've got a "feel" for the paint. as for the pentrol stuff, i would stay away from it, the mineral spirits are just fine, and that's what the paint manafacture reccommends. plus there's no tests for how that stuff acts over time, and with mineral spirits; well it's a known good, at least for me. Your results are very nice rick, think about if you took the few next steps like final wetsand with a 1000+ grit paper, and then used the polishing compound with a electric random orbit polisher, it just brings it that much closer to "perfect". you can achieve a "perfect" paint-job with this method; it's all on how much time you put into it. remember the original paint is not any beter, and people allways compare new BC/CC paints to enamels, and there is no comparrison. Oh and rick, the reason why red fades the worst in hot sunny areas is because red pigments are hardest to manafacture synthetically, therefore natural pigments are used and those we all know are prone to break down under UV exposure, causing fade and dis-coloring. The tremclad/rustoleum does contain uv inhibitors so that's not really a huge issue, as long as you keep your car clean and waxed, the paint is as tough if not better than modern paints for durability. case in point, i've had 5 incidents in the last few months that would have made me literally cry if i spent $5000+ on a paint job. incident #1. guy tried to jump me at a drive thru bank teller, i showed him how a 440 charger could peel out over one's feet and cause major pain, and how to properelly eat a quatrer pannel with your face, #2. accidently closed my huge double width garage door (with automatic opener) on the trunk of my car, #3. hit a deer about 35mi/hr, #4. my giant torque wrench with about 6 oil filters fell off the top shelf in my garage right on the hood (great), #5. opened the door right into a motor i had out of another car.

all of these incidents caused almost no damage, nothing a little buff did'nt completely remove, except the #5, where i had to touch up the chip, but that too is un-detectable. so for me this paint rocks.

Re: paint job on a budget!? [Re: roe] #23134
05/24/06 10:54 AM
05/24/06 10:54 AM
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ok guys. i need to know if the rustoleum primer is rollable. or any suggestions are welcome.

it looks like i will have to end up selling my duster because we are moving and its not worth spending the $1,100 to ship it from here to florida. and its definately not cross country worthy to drive. So i would like to get it solid color...primer preferably. I don't want to spend the time and sweat outside doing all the coats and trying to polish a bright color up just to sell it. I'd like to do primer...can it be rolled flat like the other color paints?

What do you guys suggest? I really rather not spray bomb it or anything like that.




Hey GOODY, if you can, find a way to keep that car, you'll need a car thats pretty good on gas and has a/c when you get down here in this hot/muggy/humid florida weather. Besides, when you get down here, rustfree cars like yours cost more money. You guys out in the deserts got it good. Hold on to it if you can.

What part of Fla are you moving to. Im in college in Gainesville, but I keep my car at home in Orlando.

As far as the primer goes, I dont know. Theres been more than one discussed. One was said to be designed for rust, and didnt perform well on good metal. Then there was the spraycan rustoleum primer that a lot of guys have been using with good results. And other guys have said that you can get a primer that you can roller from the auto body stores.




Sorry, can't spend $1100 to ship a $800 car.


bump, anyone else help me out on my primer question?


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Re: paint job on a budget!? #23135
05/24/06 10:57 AM
05/24/06 10:57 AM
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I gave up on painting my hood red as I didn't like how the color turned out. I decided to use semi-gloss black instead. I am not getting the results I'm looking for. Can anyone give me some advice on this? Here is a pic:





would these be consider orange peel?? I never done any kind of painting on cars or truck at all I really Like to learn. this system here sound like it should be simple with some practice! thank for a very detail info on this paint system!

440 removal out of 76 CB300 #23136
05/24/06 11:08 AM
05/24/06 11:08 AM

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Can anyone tell me the procedure to remove a 440 and tranny out of a 76 cb300 motorhome? I have already removed core support and bumper, compressor, linkage,exhaust. Must I jack the van up to clear the boom of the cherry picker. I have no clearance. HELP!!!

Re: paint job on a budget!? [Re: 69chargeryeehaa] #23137
05/24/06 11:26 AM
05/24/06 11:26 AM

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Thanks, Martin. You know, I was just outside and happened to notice a brand new Honda SUV parked nearby. I started to look a little closer at the paint finish to judge just how smooth the paint really is on new cars. I gotta tell you, I honestly don't think it was any better (orange peel) than my final mower coat. It got me thinking... I'm gonna take my camera out into the local shopping mall parking lot and take some photos of various manufacturers paint coatings and see about making a side by side comparison. I'll try to get as wide a variety as I can find. I know that in the last few years, auto makers have switched to low VOC paints and maybe that's why we're seeing car finishes looking alot more like they did in the 60's thru 70's an they did in the 80's and 90's?

About the red pigments - you would think red would be the easiest pigment to make as it's one of the very oldest (iron oxide), but I'll accept your explaination. The next logical question would be: Why does Silver seem to be the next in line for paint fading? Again, you would think silver would be one of the easiest pigments to make?

Re: paint job on a budget!? #23138
05/24/06 11:59 AM
05/24/06 11:59 AM
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Quote:

Thanks, Martin. You know, I was just outside and happened to notice a brand new Honda SUV parked nearby. I started to look a little closer at the paint finish to judge just how smooth the paint really is on new cars. I gotta tell you, I honestly don't think it was any better (orange peel) than my final mower coat. It got me thinking... I'm gonna take my camera out into the local shopping mall parking lot and take some photos of various manufacturers paint coatings and see about making a side by side comparison. I'll try to get as wide a variety as I can find. I know that in the last few years, auto makers have switched to low VOC paints and maybe that's why we're seeing car finishes looking alot more like they did in the 60's thru 70's an they did in the 80's and 90's?

About the red pigments - you would think red would be the easiest pigment to make as it's one of the very oldest (iron oxide), but I'll accept your explaination. The next logical question would be: Why does Silver seem to be the next in line for paint fading? Again, you would think silver would be one of the easiest pigments to make?




well, every color absorbs different wave lengths of lights, and all paints are not created equal, and use different pigments, it is the pigments used in the paint that determines fade, and silver has alot of pigments, some are more expensive than others and that's why they fade more. but you can see a difference from one manafacturer to another, alot of GM cars have fade and peeling clear coats, like the corsica, ect...and that is just due to using crappy paint. it all depends on how the paint is made, and what the quality of pigments are, and each specific color absorbs a certain wave length of light depending on what pigments are used to make that color, so for example, even white can be bad for fade, like on some Lexus perl white cars, they have bad fade problems because there is a pigment (maybe red/blue/green) who knows , and that is why it fades.

Re: paint job on a budget!? #23139
05/24/06 12:14 PM
05/24/06 12:14 PM
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Thanks for that Penetrol info Rick. Based on that, I'll probably use the rattlecans under the hood and jambs just to avoid any more stress than needed.

Re: paint job on a budget!? [Re: Exit1965] #23140
05/24/06 01:09 PM
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Ricklandia, I don't know if is just me, but I can't see any picture in your posts.

Re: paint job on a budget!? #23141
05/24/06 01:24 PM
05/24/06 01:24 PM

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Same here. Can see the pics.

Re: paint job on a budget!? #23142
05/24/06 01:59 PM
05/24/06 01:59 PM

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i can't see it either

Re: paint job on a budget!? #23143
05/24/06 02:31 PM
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Quote:

Ricklandia, I don't know if is just me, but I can't see any picture in your posts.




Hmmmm... it appears as though my host provider (Bellsouth) has a bandwidth limit on my "personal webspace", and it's already been exceeded! LOL

I've attached the first of 5 to this message so that you can download them today.

2649819-BA_full.jpg (1063 downloads)
Re: paint job on a budget!? #23144
05/24/06 02:32 PM
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Number 2 of 5

2649820-BA_angle1.jpg (817 downloads)
Re: paint job on a budget!? #23145
05/24/06 02:32 PM
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Number 3 of 5

2649823-BA_side.jpg (660 downloads)
Re: paint job on a budget!? #23146
05/24/06 02:33 PM
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Number 4 of 5

2649824-reflections.jpg (613 downloads)
Re: paint job on a budget!? #23147
05/24/06 02:33 PM
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Number 5 of 5

2649826-Brush-vs-Roller.jpg (2759 downloads)
Re: paint job on a budget!? #23148
05/24/06 02:36 PM
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This attached image is of coat #4, pre-wetsanding (see earlier message for reference text)

2649829-coat-3-d.jpg (773 downloads)
Re: paint job on a budget!? [Re: GoodysGotaCuda] #23149
05/24/06 03:44 PM
05/24/06 03:44 PM
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Sorry, can't spend $1100 to ship a $800 car.


bump, anyone else help me out on my primer question?




that makes sense, I didn't know how much you paid for it.



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