Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues -UPDATE
#2147315
09/04/16 02:34 PM
09/04/16 02:34 PM
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69L78Nova
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Been having some problems with the 4640SA Carter AVS on my 69 Charger. Its a very mild 440; six pack flat tops that sit .005" below the deck, 452 heads, K6401 Summit cam, stock 70 AVS intake manifold, TTI headers into 2.5" duals and an h-pipe, 3.23 sure grip. Since I put the carb on almost a year ago. It has been completely rebuilt, all passages blown out with 140psi of compressed air, HIC blocked off, new floats, etc. My problem with it is it doesnt seem to idle right. The mixture screws are almost 4 turns out, to the point I had to stretch out the springs on the screws to keep them tight. Any further in and it starts idling like garbage. It will literally burn your eyes standing behind it. I switched over to the two step Edelbrock rods and jets on the primary side. Im currently running 70/47 rods, and .113 jets...secondaries are .098s. After a drive, the plugs are a very dark brown. I need to lean out the cruise side and was going to try out some 73/47 rods. Distributor is at 14 initial, 35 total, all in by 2200rpm. I picked up a fresh Holley 3310 (750) from a friend of mine, and I have a perfect 6322s Thermoquad. Ive never been much of a Holley fan on the street, and always preferred Thermoquads. Im not a fan of squarebore/spreadbore adapter plates though.
I have been fighting this AVS for a while now, and am not a fan of spending $15 for a pair of rods, and over $10 for a pair of jets. A reason I have never been much of a Carter/Edelbrock fan. I have a complete Mopar Performance Holley jet kit with sizes ranging from 64 to 99. The Holley is tempting me, but dont like the idea of relocating the coil to put it on.
For a car like this that is cruised around on the weekends, run hard through the gears every time its driven, etc, which of the three carbs would be the best bet? The current AVS, the Holley, or the Thermoquad?
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147371
09/04/16 04:03 PM
09/04/16 04:03 PM
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69L78Nova
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That's another thing I was wondering about. I've never modified the internals of an AFB or AVS before. Which passages are the idle jets?
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147492
09/04/16 07:22 PM
09/04/16 07:22 PM
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John_Kunkel
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That's another thing I was wondering about. I've never modified the internals of an AFB or AVS before. Which passages are the idle jets?
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147507
09/04/16 07:59 PM
09/04/16 07:59 PM
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69L78Nova
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Awesome! So the tip of the idle fuel jet needs to be opened up a little bit? Do you recommend a good starting point?
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147558
09/04/16 09:11 PM
09/04/16 09:11 PM
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69L78Nova
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I'll have to give it a shot. .035" seems pretty big. I'll have to pull it apart, but it doesn't seem like the overall tube diameter is even .035"
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147602
09/04/16 10:18 PM
09/04/16 10:18 PM
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RapidRobert
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first I would blast the clusters and the ports the idle mix screws are in with brake kleen. even tho it is rebuilt, something is way wrong with the carb (& that is a mild cam so not seeing how poor idle vacuum could be involved in this). lets get the carb squared away then fine tune the idle bleeds etc. do you have a "square" or close to it for the transfer slot?
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147614
09/04/16 10:35 PM
09/04/16 10:35 PM
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69L78Nova
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That's what I figured. I've had the carb apart twice already, cleaned all of the passages out, blasted them with 130psi of compressed air. It's pulling 14 in/hg at idle. It pulls great for being such a mild motor in a heavy boat. It'll go sideways at 50mph when you open it up, I just need to get the idle situated
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147622
09/04/16 10:41 PM
09/04/16 10:41 PM
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RapidRobert
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I'm assuming that the clusters ain't dripping from too much psi (& wouldn't think bad needle/seat cuz it has been kitted & likely a new filter, that it is definitely an idle circuit prob. some cluster gasket are cut poorly. did this carb idle OK any time prior to this. check the transfer slot when you can. what is the idle speed? EDIT you pretty much duplicated the OE jet/rod orifices?, maybe a bit richer which is good as all OE AVS's are lean & AVS strip kits are pretty much non existant tho I dont think the main metering would be into this if the transfer slot is pretty much a square
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147638
09/04/16 11:13 PM
09/04/16 11:13 PM
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69L78Nova
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It has never idled right since I got the carb. I still have the factory rods and jets for it, I just changed over to the newer two step setup for tuneability. With the factory jetting, it was ridiculously lean at cruise, to the point it would miss and buck. I'm really not set on keeping this carb for any originality reasons. Nothing on this car is original. If I do start modding this carb though, there isn't any going back. That's why I was originally wondering about the Holley or the Thermoquad. I've had the TQ running like EFI on many engines in the past, and the Holley has been freshly gone through. Id almost rather pull the AVS and stick it aside if I'm going to have to start drilling passages open and modifying it
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147671
09/04/16 11:45 PM
09/04/16 11:45 PM
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bee1971
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You are running the flat metering rod covers , correct , when you converted over to edelbrock parts , or did you epoxy the factory ones flat and smooth
Anyways
At idle with engine running , did you remove the metering rod covers and see if the metering rod pistons and rods where all the way down on both sides
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147672
09/04/16 11:46 PM
09/04/16 11:46 PM
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lewtot184
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I'll have to give it a shot. .035" seems pretty big. I'll have to pull it apart, but it doesn't seem like the overall tube diameter is even .035" it'll work. the tube small end is over .060" in o.d.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147676
09/04/16 11:54 PM
09/04/16 11:54 PM
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bee1971
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I run that same carb on my 71 BEE - 383 Magnum - Put the smaller AVS 6125 s up in the attic
Perfect - Carb is Awesome
I also blocked off the HIC
Made my own flat metering rod covers - Edelbrock doesn't sell them when I asked
104 Primaries 107 Secondaries
68-47 Metering Rods Blue Edelbrock Metering Rod Springs , had to replace factory springs
Last edited by bee1971; 09/04/16 11:55 PM.
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: bee1971]
#2147684
09/05/16 12:15 AM
09/05/16 12:15 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
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I run that same carb on my 71 BEE - 383 Magnum - Put the smaller AVS 6125 s up in the attic
Perfect - Carb is Awesome
I also blocked off the HIC
Made my own flat metering rod covers - Edelbrock doesn't sell them when I asked
104 Primaries 107 Secondaries
68-47 Metering Rods Blue Edelbrock Metering Rod Springs , had to replace factory springs
You're running 107s in the secondaries with a 383? Damn I'm only running 98s with my 440. I may have to dive into the secondary side once I get it idling right!
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147726
09/05/16 01:05 AM
09/05/16 01:05 AM
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RapidRobert
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I would highly suggest not opening anything up (drilling). we gotta find/fix the root cause first.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: bee1971]
#2147791
09/05/16 03:11 AM
09/05/16 03:11 AM
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cudaman1969
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I run that same carb on my 71 BEE - 383 Magnum - Put the smaller AVS 6125 s up in the attic
Perfect - Carb is Awesome
I also blocked off the HIC
Made my own flat metering rod covers - Edelbrock doesn't sell them when I asked
104 Primaries 107 Secondaries
68-47 Metering Rods Blue Edelbrock Metering Rod Springs , had to replace factory springs
The 4640 is for AC cars and I would look at the hot idle compensator for leaks (cork gasket) or block it like bee 71 said. Is your car AC? If not look for 4618 carb, they have different air adjusters. Check the rods to see if they are free moving and down when running, might not be seeing vacuum to pull down (restriction)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2147804
09/05/16 04:31 AM
09/05/16 04:31 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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69L78Nova
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OP
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I run that same carb on my 71 BEE - 383 Magnum - Put the smaller AVS 6125 s up in the attic
Perfect - Carb is Awesome
I also blocked off the HIC
Made my own flat metering rod covers - Edelbrock doesn't sell them when I asked
104 Primaries 107 Secondaries
68-47 Metering Rods Blue Edelbrock Metering Rod Springs , had to replace factory springs
The 4640 is for AC cars and I would look at the hot idle compensator for leaks (cork gasket) or block it like bee 71 said. Is your car AC? If not look for 4618 carb, they have different air adjusters. Check the rods to see if they are free moving and down when running, might not be seeing vacuum to pull down (restriction) Like I said, the HIC is blocked off. The metering rods move freely, and are down at idle.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2147846
09/05/16 10:28 AM
09/05/16 10:28 AM
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lewtot184
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I would highly suggest not opening anything up (drilling). we gotta find/fix the root cause first. do you have any experience with changing idle feed/jets in any carbs?
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2147934
09/05/16 01:02 PM
09/05/16 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
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cudaman1969
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I run that same carb on my 71 BEE - 383 Magnum - Put the smaller AVS 6125 s up in the attic
Perfect - Carb is Awesome
I also blocked off the HIC
Made my own flat metering rod covers - Edelbrock doesn't sell them when I asked
104 Primaries 107 Secondaries
68-47 Metering Rods Blue Edelbrock Metering Rod Springs , had to replace factory springs
The 4640 is for AC cars and I would look at the hot idle compensator for leaks (cork gasket) or block it like bee 71 said. Is your car AC? If not look for 4618 carb, they have different air adjusters. Check the rods to see if they are free moving and down when running, might not be seeing vacuum to pull down (restriction) Like I said, the HIC is blocked off. The metering rods move freely, and are down at idle. The holly must be duel feed? Square bowl will fit with stock coil bracket, and I wouldn't put the tq on with an adapter. So find a 440 tq intake, less hassle since all the linkage and choke hooks up factory.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: RapidRobert]
#2148018
09/05/16 02:51 PM
09/05/16 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,747 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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I would highly suggest not opening anything up (drilling). we gotta find/fix the root cause first. The root cause is the design. These are emissions carbs intended to run lean and they do; drivability problems were well known when the cars were brand new and today's gas exacerbates the original problem.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2148079
09/05/16 04:27 PM
09/05/16 04:27 PM
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RapidRobert
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yes it is an emissions era carb & is lean & tweaking the innards does work excellent to fine tune em spot on but it can & will run at least on the idling circuit fine for the most part without em (& OP has a mild cam). there is another problem going on that needs to be fixed (something is severley damaged/leaking etc). I cant see fine tuning the innards with drilling fixing what is damaged. Like the one guy posted & my exp with em, they are fine but can be made better. if drilling mods fix this carb I'll be the first to admit I was wrong!
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2148930
09/06/16 04:48 PM
09/06/16 04:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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fast68plymouth
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I'm with Lew and John on this one...... Drill 'em out.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#2148969
09/06/16 05:35 PM
09/06/16 05:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
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cudaman1969
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I would highly suggest not opening anything up (drilling). we gotta find/fix the root cause first. The root cause is the design. These are emissions carbs intended to run lean and they do; drivability problems were well known when the cars were brand new and today's gas exacerbates the original problem. Emission carb, in 1969?
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2149067
09/06/16 07:52 PM
09/06/16 07:52 PM
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John_Kunkel
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You bet. All factory AVS's (Mopar started using them in '68) are emission carbs.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#2149945
09/07/16 10:08 PM
09/07/16 10:08 PM
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Rob C
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Not if the TQ is set up right !! AGREED! Finding a good TQ is one thing. Getting parts to tune it is the other trick. Once you have a good TQ carb tuned in, there really quite an excellent carb. IMO, perfect for a street strip application. A Holley is the easy way out. And I wouldn't blame a sole for going to one.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: Rob C]
#2149954
09/07/16 10:20 PM
09/07/16 10:20 PM
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cudaman1969
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Not if the TQ is set up right !! AGREED! Finding a good TQ is one thing. Getting parts to tune it is the other trick. Once you have a good TQ carb tuned in, there really quite an excellent carb. IMO, perfect for a street strip application. A Holley is the easy way out. And I wouldn't blame a sole for going to one. The TQ a least has the right Chrysler linkage, not a bandaid adapter.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2149996
09/07/16 10:57 PM
09/07/16 10:57 PM
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RapidRobert
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B5XP29, FOR SURE holler how the AVS turns out! what you did to it/how it acts now. Inquiring minds want to know.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2150059
09/08/16 12:02 AM
09/08/16 12:02 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
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69L78Nova
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I ordered some #63 drill bits (.037"), as nobody local carries them. Hopefully they'll be here by the weekend. If I can't get the AVS running right, maybe I'll try the thermoquad. Thanks to everybody for the advice/suggestions
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2150168
09/08/16 04:17 AM
09/08/16 04:17 AM
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cudaman1969
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I ordered some #63 drill bits (.037"), as nobody local carries them. Hopefully they'll be here by the weekend. If I can't get the AVS running right, maybe I'll try the thermoquad. Thanks to everybody for the advice/suggestions One of my favorite cars. Rode around many a nite in my friends 69 RT, forest green, he bought the car right off the showroom, paid for it himself.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2150309
09/08/16 01:01 PM
09/08/16 01:01 PM
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Supercuda
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Not interested in something the "looks like" a Thermoquad.
Question is, does it SOUND like one?
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2150374
09/08/16 02:31 PM
09/08/16 02:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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fast68plymouth
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I like the Edelbrock 800avs in an application like this.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2151454
09/10/16 02:39 AM
09/10/16 02:39 AM
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69L78Nova
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Well, it worked! Drilling out the idle fuel jet tube to .037" did the trick. It has never idled better. Smooth as silk. Who would have thought something so simple could have done it. Thanks to everyone that offered up the great advice! Gotta love Moparts! 👍
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2151540
09/10/16 11:09 AM
09/10/16 11:09 AM
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383man
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I'm with Lew and John on this one...... Drill 'em out. I also agree with you guys. Does anyone know what size the economizer or the other idle feed restriction is ? I take it that it is larger then the lower idle feed restriction at the bottom of the idle tube since drilling the idle restriction at the bottom of the tube helps and makes it richer ? Ron
Last edited by 383man; 09/10/16 11:11 AM.
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#2151601
09/10/16 12:37 PM
09/10/16 12:37 PM
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bee1971
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Interesting , Awesome To Hear
By drilling them out , could you actually have cleaned them out , as in dirty or plugged ???
My 4640sa starts and idles perfect stone cold , idles cold with no choke not even touching the gas pedal , running the Mopar 284 / 484 Cam , transition off idle beyond smooth , I don't even want to try this , if not broke don't fix it ,since the many times I opened it up playing with jetting and fine tuning it
Anyways makes the Edelbrock 1407 that it replaced , man what a Headache that 1407 was , biggest POS carb I ever worked on
1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies
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Re: Carter AVS vs Holley 3310 vs Thermoquad -carb issues
[Re: bee1971]
#2151623
09/10/16 01:35 PM
09/10/16 01:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
OP
Banned. Forever.
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OP
Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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By drilling them out , could you actually have cleaned them out , as in dirty or plugged ???
Not a chance. This carb couldnt have been any cleaner. I always clean all passages out with torch tip cleaners, carb cleaner, and a blast of over 120psi of air. Not every carb needs to be modified internally, but I guess this one did. Like I said, it has never idled better or cleaner, I leaned out the primary cruise step and fattened up the secondary jets while it was apart. Plugs look good, pulls harder, and idles great.
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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