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Watts link for a mopar? #2144609
08/31/16 03:22 PM
08/31/16 03:22 PM
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dusterpt440 Offline OP
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Been a non member surfer for quite some time now. I have a 73 duster I picked up last winter and plan on a pro-touring road race car out of it. While I have read good things about the torsion bar suspensions on these cars, I am adding a 600 horse 440, 11.5:1 compression, tunnel rammed motor. I was considering their front K frame kits after reading another thread on here and went to their website, it seems they are selling a Watts link 4 bar rear suspension too, does anyone have one? Thoughts on a watts link system?

here's the link to their kit,

http://www.gerstsuspensions.com/gerst-contender-series-rear-suspensions.html

thanks

Doug

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2145968
09/02/16 10:20 AM
09/02/16 10:20 AM
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Stanton Offline
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Or a triangulated 4-link !!

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: Stanton] #2146231
09/02/16 04:21 PM
09/02/16 04:21 PM
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Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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Originally Posted By Stanton
Or a triangulated 4-link !!


Why compromise if you are going with a custom setup?

A 3 link with a good watts link would be a much better way to go. (the one in the link above doesn't look all that amazing to me)

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: OzHemi] #2146940
09/03/16 07:38 PM
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dusterpt440 Offline OP
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could you elaborate please?

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2147125
09/04/16 01:56 AM
09/04/16 01:56 AM
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OzHemi Offline
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Elaborate in regards to what ?

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2147165
09/04/16 07:34 AM
09/04/16 07:34 AM
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Why not keep it stock(-ish) for now, take it to a circuit and then decide if upgrades are needed?

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2147207
09/04/16 11:00 AM
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dusterpt440 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By OzHemi
Elaborate in regards to what ?
the 3 link vs the watt's link kit i posted


Originally Posted By BigBlockMopar
Why not keep it stock(-ish) for now, take it to a circuit and then decide if upgrades are needed?



This isnt my first mopar, I previously had a 73 duster with a moderate 360, around 450 hp in it, i put 1.03 bars in it and mopar super stock springs and it handled alright but not perfect, lot of understeer and the back end stepped out from time to time rather unpredictably, it ended up catching fire and burning it and my shop down 2 years ago, probably from me skimping and using 40 yr old wiring, so im starting over.

I'm not exactly a novice/beginner with road racing, I'm 31, been doing it now since i got my drivers license and dad made me do SCCA auto cross, said that was the best way for me to find out exactly what the car would do and do it safely. His goal was to keep me from racing, well that didnt work.

My biggest reasons for upgrading my suspension from the good factory mopar are:


Adjustability, I want to play with spring rates and roll centers this go around. I've already upgraded to a tubed K frame and coil overs upfront. May as well do the rear too.
Leaf springs just dont provide that. My only tuning tool would be shocks and maybe an adjustable sway bar if i stayed leafs.


Last edited by dusterpt440; 09/04/16 11:09 AM.
Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2147403
09/04/16 04:47 PM
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He is saying if going to a Watts, go to a 3 link instead of 4 link. The Watts is just an axle locating method.


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2147577
09/04/16 09:45 PM
09/04/16 09:45 PM
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Yep, and regards to the mentioned triangulated 4 link, they just induce bind, so to go with something non-stock, I couldn't see why use something that wasn't more of an ideal setup.

(I have a triangulated 4 link-from the factory car that the same models have been road raced since the 70's until right this moment and everyone who can change when the class allows, seems to ditch it for a 3 link/watts link setup.)

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2147583
09/04/16 09:52 PM
09/04/16 09:52 PM
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http://www.msfracingcomponents.com.au/wattslinkandpanhardkits/

A few styles of watts link there..

And general idea in car (non Mopar, this is a Torana track car setup with a 3 link and a similar to above link watts setup)

watts.jpg
Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2149554
09/07/16 12:52 PM
09/07/16 12:52 PM
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68rrunner Offline
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What front coil system do you have? None of the kits currently offered are very good for performance driving.

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2149759
09/07/16 05:40 PM
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Originally Posted By dusterpt440

My biggest reasons for upgrading my suspension from the good factory mopar are:


Adjustability, I want to play with spring rates and roll centers this go around. I've already upgraded to a tubed K frame and coil overs upfront. May as well do the rear too.
Leaf springs just dont provide that. My only tuning tool would be shocks and maybe an adjustable sway bar if i stayed leafs.



Not entirely true, although I will admit changing coil springs is a much cheaper and easier exercise.

Up front, changing ride heights, whether torsion bar or coil over, will net similar results in geometric changes. Altering pick up points between an aftermarket tubular coil over system or the OEM torsion bar system is not done easily, although...by retaining the original mopar parts, you can swap to taller spindles (FJM or C body) and taller ball joints (offered by several oval track parts suppliers) to alter intersection points, and ultimately, roll center locations. None of the aftermarket systems I have seen allow these changes, use compatible parts to adjust spindle heights, nor offer control arm mounting point adjustments. But, a big drawback to the OEM system is that t-bars are expensive and you are limited to 4 maybe 5 decent rates, provided you match them up with big enough sway bars.

Out back with a stock leaf spring set up, no, you can't alter roll center easily. However, changing the front eyes to pivot style eyes and adding an adjustable panhard bar will now allow easy changes in roll center height for a live axle set up. However, quick rate changes with leaf springs is not easily accomplished.

FWIW, the original AAR and TA race programs used both watts and panhards with leaf systems when racing the TA series in 1970. Plymouth had panhard bars and Dodge used Watts links. As Plymouth was qualifying better, the Dodge team elected to dump the watts for panhards and improved their qualifying positions.

Now, that isn't intended to say a watts in ineffective, as they have been used successfully in many applications. However, what it does tell me is that in a competition environment, sometimes the simplest solution is more effective in application than the ultimate solution.

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2149785
09/07/16 06:16 PM
09/07/16 06:16 PM
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I wonder if the added unsprung weight of a watts over a panhard was the difference the Dodge team was seeing?

In theory the watts setup is superior from a lateral movement aspect, but reality has a way of dealing with theory.

BTW, Afco 20229P are on clearance at speedway.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2149815
09/07/16 06:50 PM
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Could have been. Plus, when you are using a 40"+ panhard bar spanning the entire rear housing and only moving the suspension a few inches up or down, the lateral movement of the rear due to the panhard's arc of motion could be a non-issue in the bigger scheme of things.

Thats a decent price on the Afcos at Speedway. Might have to pick some up since I've been considering Afco leafs.

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2149869
09/07/16 07:55 PM
09/07/16 07:55 PM
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A pan hard actually has a tuning advantage over a watt's link. I still chose a watt's link, again. Previous setup and current setup under construction.




Craig Scholl
CJD Automotive, LLC
Jacksonville, FL
www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com
904-400-1802

"I own a Mopar. I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification"
Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2149898
09/07/16 08:39 PM
09/07/16 08:39 PM
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You got bored waiting for that engine huh?


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: CJD AUTOMOTIVE] #2149920
09/07/16 09:17 PM
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If I'm viewing your pic correctly, the 3rd link is slightly offset or the watts?
I like your lower over the tunnel upward bent tie the bottom main bar bottoms together. I don't see that around here often. Very Nice, again up


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: dusterpt440] #2150227
09/08/16 10:06 AM
09/08/16 10:06 AM
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dusterpt440 Offline OP
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first, I'm steering away from the 3 link, I just think with the power im running and knowing that i'll probably take it to a drag strip once or twice, i feel it's better to go with a 4 link, distribute out the power better.

Also, Craig, that set up looks very nice.

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: TC@HP2] #2150232
09/08/16 10:14 AM
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dusterpt440 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By TC@HP2
Originally Posted By dusterpt440

My biggest reasons for upgrading my suspension from the good factory mopar are:


Adjustability, I want to play with spring rates and roll centers this go around. I've already upgraded to a tubed K frame and coil overs upfront. May as well do the rear too.
Leaf springs just dont provide that. My only tuning tool would be shocks and maybe an adjustable sway bar if i stayed leafs.



Not entirely true, although I will admit changing coil springs is a much cheaper and easier exercise.

Up front, changing ride heights, whether torsion bar or coil over, will net similar results in geometric changes. Altering pick up points between an aftermarket tubular coil over system or the OEM torsion bar system is not done easily, although...by retaining the original mopar parts, you can swap to taller spindles (FJM or C body) and taller ball joints (offered by several oval track parts suppliers) to alter intersection points, and ultimately, roll center locations. None of the aftermarket systems I have seen allow these changes, use compatible parts to adjust spindle heights, nor offer control arm mounting point adjustments. But, a big drawback to the OEM system is that t-bars are expensive and you are limited to 4 maybe 5 decent rates, provided you match them up with big enough sway bars.

Out back with a stock leaf spring set up, no, you can't alter roll center easily. However, changing the front eyes to pivot style eyes and adding an adjustable panhard bar will now allow easy changes in roll center height for a live axle set up. However, quick rate changes with leaf springs is not easily accomplished.

FWIW, the original AAR and TA race programs used both watts and panhards with leaf systems when racing the TA series in 1970. Plymouth had panhard bars and Dodge used Watts links. As Plymouth was qualifying better, the Dodge team elected to dump the watts for panhards and improved their qualifying positions.

Now, that isn't intended to say a watts in ineffective, as they have been used successfully in many applications. However, what it does tell me is that in a competition environment, sometimes the simplest solution is more effective in application than the ultimate solution.


well with a panhard bar,to a certain you can actually tune it to unload a certain tire, depending on which corner you want to make time up in, watts link can't do that. Normally, you want max grip on both tires equally, but there are occassions where one tire having less grip could be an advantage. Plus Panhards are easier to grasp the tuning in my opinion having played with both before. I just lack welding skills or i'd build my own. I really just like the watts link over the panhard, call it a preferance. And since I lack the skills i mentioned above, Gerst Watts link looks like the only off the shelve mopar kit with a watts that is adjustable. At least that I can find

Doug

Re: Watts link for a mopar? [Re: 68rrunner] #2150241
09/08/16 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted By 68rrunner
What front coil system do you have? None of the kits currently offered are very good for performance driving.


Thanks for the input.

I have ordered a Gerst kit. I'm curious as to why you claim no kits offered are very good, have you in fact driven cars with all those kits?

My experience is that in most cases, the driver is a huge part of the problem. What I mean is, these aftermarket kits have to be put on and properly tuned. Do they come with the correct spring rates for your car? the same 2 Duster per say can weigh vastly different depending on how they are set up. This would change the spring rates need to be in the right spectrum. Also, how many of those cars with aftermarket kits are still running factory rear suspensions, or slightly modified rear suspensions? How's the weight balance of the car? There's so many different factors that I don't think its fair to just lump all aftermarket kits into one and say they all suck for performance driving. Especially since 9 times out of 10, the people making those comments haven't messed with one. Not saying this is your case but im just making a general assumption.

Good news is that I have some baseline numbers to compare with out of my car so I'll post them when i get the ones with the Gerst. I will say this, I watched a 68 dart tear it up at a bowling green event earlier this summer, I got to talking with him and he's the one who turned me onto the gerst idea. I got to drive that dart and was pretty happy with how it handled, it drove flat, tires hooked and didnt push, very predictable landings. Something my duster never has had. Gentleman said he picked up over 2 seconds on the same course with the swap. But take that with a grain of salt of course as I have no way to verify that for you. Plus, like I mentioned above, there's so many factors in setting up a car, that's why I wanted adjustibility.

I'm not married to the Gerst watts link, so if there's other off the shelf options out there that have that much tuning capability, please link me.

Thanks for the opinions all. Keep them coming

Doug

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