400/451 or 440/493?
#2036811
03/22/16 10:40 PM
03/22/16 10:40 PM
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Gerald l
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I talked to an engine builder who quoted me a fairly good price on a 440/493 motor. I asked him about a 400/451 and he said that'll be a little more. Everywhere I look the 451 combo seems like the holy grail of stroker motors haha. I know the 440 would be a monster because of the obvious more displacement.
Last edited by Gerald l; 03/22/16 10:49 PM.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2036819
03/22/16 10:49 PM
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383man
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It can depend on what you plan to use the car for. For all out racing car the 400 is the strongest in the crank webbing area and the 400 has the largest bore so many like to use it. For a street car that may get raced every now and then like I do the 440 should hold up fine up to about 650 hp. I use the 440 block for my 493 build and one reason was also because the 440 raised block has a better intake selection also and I knew most of the time my car is just street driven and not run hard. Mine is around 600 flywheel hp and its been in my car since 2011 with no problems at all. You just need to weigh out your options of how you plan to use the car as the 440 will hold up fine up to so much hp (around 650) but over that the stronger 400 is the better choice as long as it takes the intake you plan to use. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 03/22/16 10:50 PM.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2036850
03/22/16 11:27 PM
03/22/16 11:27 PM
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RapidRobert
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[quote=]I talked to an engine builder who quoted me a fairly good price on a 440/493 motor. I know the 440 would be a monster because of the obvious more displacement. [/quote] (1) a good price (2) 50 more cubes. if everything checked out I would absolutely go with the RB. EDIT that is what I was gonna add, what Andy said: the height of the "V" is roughly ~3/4 taller out at a 45 angle on the RB than the B so if it is setup up for a B now, the RB would kick the headers/ex up that much which may or may not make a fitment prob and the alt/ps would be slightly different but those would be easy to work around, that would be the main thing that would make me possibly want to go with the B & I believe most if not all RB's weigh a bit more otherwise I'd definitely want the 493 cubes in there. You're talking a thousands of dollars purchase, be SURE to check things out head to toe
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/23/16 12:02 AM.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2036961
03/23/16 03:58 AM
03/23/16 03:58 AM
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Cab_Burge
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Yeah I don't plan on hitting the track. At least no time soon. Intakes shouldn't be a problem. Im planning on running an eddy rpm. I like the fact that the 400 is stronger also. I've built and raced a lot of pump gas B and RB stroker motors. On your deal using the 400 block I would look at using a 4.250 stroke crank kit with BB Chevy rods sizes(2.200) in the 400 block with a decent set of heads and matching cam This combination makes between 505 and 512 C.I., the longer stroke will out pull and out rev the shorter stroke cranks with the stock Mopar rod journal sizes IHTHs
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: GY3]
#2037134
03/23/16 01:58 PM
03/23/16 01:58 PM
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dogdays
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Once again, listen to your Uncle Cab.
20 years ago the 451 was the Holy Grail because 400 blocks were nearly free. But it is, in reality, only another way to build a 440. Yes, by using aftermarket parts you can trim the bobweight quite a bit, but you could also do that on any 440. So don't waste your time on a 451.
If you're just going to build a 440, build the 440.
The fun comes in when you get stroke out to 4.250". This engine has become the most popular thing to do with a 400 block. And you get 511 cubic inches, which is 60 cubic inches over the 451. That's with a 4.375 bore, which is becoming the standard size for this motor.
Also, do yourself a favor and use only the big block chevy 2.200" rod journal and 0.990 wristpin sizes. These are pretty much standard for building strokers. The Chrysler s1zes will actually limit your choices.
And sonic check any block before you invest in it. Chrysler casting quality was not so good.
Good Luck!
R.
Last edited by dogdays; 03/23/16 02:00 PM.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: topside]
#2037517
03/23/16 11:47 PM
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AndyF
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Personally, I like the 400 block as it leaves more room in the engine compartment and for all the world a 500" low-deck looks like a 383; guess that's the old secretive downplayer gene in me. My last 2 BBMs were 440 blocks in early B bodies, and they were a pain to work on on the right side.
Another thing I like about the 400 block is the bigger cylinders help unshroud the valves/flow a bit.
Your situation may well differ, and it's just my opinion. Next BB I want to build would look like a stock 383 Road Runner but lays down 11s through mufflers... Shouldn't be hard to do. A low deck 470 with Stealth heads and a Performer RPM would do the trick. Squirt everything with factory engine paint and a lot of people won't know it isn't stock. The HP manifolds will easily support enough power to run 11's, the key is getting the correct cam and compression. A Holley will work or run a 800 cfm Eddy carb for more of the stealth look. You can easily make 550 hp with a setup like that and it will idle smooth and run on pump gas. That is enough power to run low 11's if the car isn't a complete tank and it can hook up.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2037571
03/24/16 01:08 AM
03/24/16 01:08 AM
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RapidRobert
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The 470 is definitely grabbing my attention. Offset grinding a regular 440 steel crank will get you 470 cubes then you can peruse Andys' and the magazines' builds are good fodder. If you stay Mopar you only need some 440 rods then the KB pistons are the only real expense as far as the short block. Have your shop turn the counterweights to 7.250 when they turn the mains down to the 400 size then it'll go back to em later for balancing
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2037593
03/24/16 01:33 AM
03/24/16 01:33 AM
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AndyF
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The 470 is definitely grabbing my attention. Mopar magazine even has a 2 part article on a 470 their building with trick flows. It is now going to become a three part article. I have some intake and carb testing to do for part three.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: topside]
#2037682
03/24/16 10:56 AM
03/24/16 10:56 AM
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Personally, I like the 400 block as it leaves more room in the engine compartment and for all the world a 500" low-deck looks like a 383; guess that's the old secretive downplayer gene in me. My last 2 BBMs were 440 blocks in early B bodies, and they were a pain to work on on the right side.
Another thing I like about the 400 block is the bigger cylinders help unshroud the valves/flow a bit.
Your situation may well differ, and it's just my opinion. Next BB I want to build would look like a stock 383 Road Runner but lays down 11s through mufflers... My 505 has been painted up to look like a stock motor. With the Stealth head it fools a lot of people. I tell them it's an RV 440 with a cam and headers that I gave a nice paintjob. Mine ran easy 11's at the track first time out on pump gas, through the mufflers, 3.55 gears and on street tires. I drive it everywhere. I'd love to do up an early B body 4 door with a low deck block and make it all dirty and crusty looking under the hood. Tell everyone it's a 361. Dirt and rust blowing out behind it as you trip the beams with a high 10...
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2037811
03/24/16 03:13 PM
03/24/16 03:13 PM
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Gerald l
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What do you all think of a 383/450 are there any disadvantages to that? Sorry for all the newbie questions, this is my first Mopar and my head is spinning on which direction to go. A 383 is what's in my b body now.
Last edited by Gerald l; 03/24/16 03:16 PM.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: AndyF]
#2038189
03/25/16 12:48 AM
03/25/16 12:48 AM
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RapidRobert
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Gerald post all you want there ain't no limits and that is the purpose of Moparts. Just me I'd get a 400 block a 440 steel crank 440 rods (those would be fairly cheap) and the big expense would be the KB 280 pistons & offset grind the crank. that'd give you a ton of cubes (470) in the same B width pkg you have in there now so the alt/ps would fit back up perfect & if you have HP manifolds/good mandrel bends ex system it would fit right back up also. Post any Q's and how you decide to go
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: GY3]
#2038847
03/25/16 11:28 PM
03/25/16 11:28 PM
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383man
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My 505 has been painted up to look like a stock motor. With the Stealth head it fools a lot of people. I tell them it's an RV 440 with a cam and headers that I gave a nice paintjob. Mine ran easy 11's at the track first time out on pump gas, through the mufflers, 3.55 gears and on street tires. I drive it everywhere. I'd love to do up an early B body 4 door with a low deck block and make it all dirty and crusty looking under the hood. Tell everyone it's a 361. Dirt and rust blowing out behind it as you trip the beams with a high 10... [/quote] GY3 your eng looks great ! Ron
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: dart games]
#2039147
03/26/16 01:48 PM
03/26/16 01:48 PM
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dogdays
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Blazin' Bob, you keep talking about using 440 rods and an offset ground crank. You can have one OR the other. Offset grinding a 440 crank to a 3.91 stroke means you will use a big block chev type rod.
Chuck Senatore said it in his book and it is still to my mind the best advice; build the BIGGEST shortblock you can afford. When you get better heads it will move the torque peak up and the horsepower will go with it. But you CAN run a 220cfm head on a 500" block, that is also called a Cadillac 500. They moved those 5000lb boats around pretty well.
It feels like s a neat trick to grab a forged 440 crank out of your stash and drag it to your machine shop where the guy trims down the mains to 2.625, trims down the counterweights to 7.250 and offset grinds the rods to 2.200. BUT, WHERE IS THE MACHINE SHOP THAT'S GOING TO DO THAT FOR YOU AND WHAT WILL IT COST???
GUARANTEED IT'S NOT FREE. And, if you don't have a 440 crank stash you have to buy one of those too and that sets you back $150 or so. So now you have a 40+ year old crank made out of 1053 or something like that, not a super alloy by a long shot, and you have $600+ invested and for what? A 3.9" stroke. Contrast that to a brand new 4340 crank, 4.25" stroke, mains and counterweights where you want them, for maybe $100 more. 4340 is WAY superior to 1053.
One other thing to consider and that is engine driving characteristics. If you're not a class racer then what works to make your car feel stout is torque, and that means cubic inches. I'd much rather have a low rpm torque monster that doesn't need super valvegear, than a high rpm screamer that needs the valvesprings changed every year and the lash set every month.
There is no magic here, none whatsoever. A 511 will run stronger with a stock port window than a 470. Every time, all else being equal. They may both make exactly the same hp, but the 511 gets there first.
Figure out the largest shortblock you can afford, and build it.
R.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2042756
03/31/16 03:41 PM
03/31/16 03:41 PM
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Gerald l
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My deal fell through on the 440 so HP engines out of N.C is going to build me a low deck 470. I seen they competed in the amsoil challenge and did pretty well and their builds come with a warranty also.
Last edited by Gerald l; 03/31/16 03:46 PM.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: AndyF]
#2042772
03/31/16 04:08 PM
03/31/16 04:08 PM
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The 470 is definitely grabbing my attention. Mopar magazine even has a 2 part article on a 470 their building with trick flows. It is now going to become a three part article. I have some intake and carb testing to do for part three. Andy, why the 470 and not the 499 (4.125 stroke) or 512 (4.25" stroke)? I know when you get into the 500+ engine size the stock cylinder port size starts to become a issue.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: Gerald l]
#2042850
03/31/16 05:59 PM
03/31/16 05:59 PM
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No oil support ring in the 512, just the 499, and it is not a big deal. Also, short compression height has little to do with overall piston skirt length. Skirt length is really limited by how close the piston comes to the crank at the bottom of the stroke. The compression height can change what ring pack you use and how far away from the top of the piston you can locate the top ring (usually nitrous applications.) The shorter compression height pistons usually don't need long skirts because the rod pin is pushing/pulling towards the top of the piston, not the bottom. Only the intake stroke where the crank is pulling the piston would make it rock a bit more. On the up strokes (compression and exhaust) and power stroke down, the piston will rock less with the shorter compression height (given the same skirt length.)
I can see where offset grinding a 440 crank and using GM 2.20" rod journal rods would be cost effective for a more budget type build.
As mentioned, 20+ years ago the 451 400 block combination was great because of the low cost, but it basically was a large bore 440 with shorter and lighter pistons in a slightly stronger block.
Now the low cost of stroker cranks, rods and stroker pistons has made these combination quite affordable.
My friend has an older 470" 400 stroker using the Mopar rods journal sizes, but he had to custom order pistons for his application, and that was around $1,200/set?
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: 451Mopar]
#2042878
03/31/16 06:40 PM
03/31/16 06:40 PM
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AndyF
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The 470 is definitely grabbing my attention. Mopar magazine even has a 2 part article on a 470 their building with trick flows. It is now going to become a three part article. I have some intake and carb testing to do for part three. Andy, why the 470 and not the 499 (4.125 stroke) or 512 (4.25" stroke)? I know when you get into the 500+ engine size the stock cylinder port size starts to become a issue. There are a bunch of reasons why I prefer the 470 in a B block to the larger engines. Piston height, rod length, windage tray fitment, torque peak RPM and hp peak RPM, etc. It just seems to me that the 3.91 stroke "fits" in a B block since all of the supporting parts such as rods and pistons etc. also "fit". When you run the numbers the 470 inches "fits" with a standard port cross section to put the torque peak at a "good" point. A normal car with normal gearing can use the torque peak and hp peak to run well. So like I said, a bunch of reasons like that.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: davenc]
#2043283
04/01/16 02:30 AM
04/01/16 02:30 AM
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You may want to consider more carb than a 750, even for a street only vehicle. Have you considered exhaust yet? I agree. I have the rest of the package pretty close to identical save for it's in an RB block. It's a torque MONSTER and very docile on the street. It's like you supersized a 440 with no downside! 3" Dynomax Ultra flows with turndowns in front of the rear axle.
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Re: 400/451 or 440/493?
[Re: GY3]
#2044079
04/02/16 12:43 AM
04/02/16 12:43 AM
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ProSport
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Personally, I like the 400 block as it leaves more room in the engine compartment and for all the world a 500" low-deck looks like a 383; guess that's the old secretive downplayer gene in me. My last 2 BBMs were 440 blocks in early B bodies, and they were a pain to work on on the right side.
Another thing I like about the 400 block is the bigger cylinders help unshroud the valves/flow a bit.
Your situation may well differ, and it's just my opinion. Next BB I want to build would look like a stock 383 Road Runner but lays down 11s through mufflers... My 505 has been painted up to look like a stock motor. With the Stealth head it fools a lot of people. I tell them it's an RV 440 with a cam and headers that I gave a nice paintjob. Mine ran easy 11's at the track first time out on pump gas, through the mufflers, 3.55 gears and on street tires. I drive it everywhere. I'd love to do up an early B body 4 door with a low deck block and make it all dirty and crusty looking under the hood. Tell everyone it's a 361. Dirt and rust blowing out behind it as you trip the beams with a high 10... I like the way you think! Engine looks great too. I try not to bring it up too often since I've talked about it so many times but I really liked the 451 I had in my DartSport, it ran 9's with Eddy heads and a 590 purpleshaft cam at 3050 pounds. Low maintenance and a ton of fun! I've also owned a couple 500" low decks and they've been fun too but that 451 was pretty darn impressive for what it was. ThumperDart's 470 has always been a strong runner, and I'd also like to try a 470 next due to the reasons AndyF has already mentioned.
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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