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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2037077
03/23/16 12:21 PM
03/23/16 12:21 PM
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So, in basic English, You still don't get it. haha

CONFIRMED!


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2037087
03/23/16 12:39 PM
03/23/16 12:39 PM
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Man you are a bad troll or dont get it. Or both. Thanks for the laughs!

I do think i know what you are missing. If you change the relationship of the rotor to the reluctor, you dont understand the light will still show when the spark happens, but you dont understand that will still show the rotor/reluctor combo aligned with the terminal. It still moves with the advance. We covered that back in the beginning, but you were wrong and still are about it. You still think it's magic.

That's too funny. haha


Better yet, let's have your alternate conclusion since you are so certain it's different. This should be good

Last edited by SomeCarGuy; 03/23/16 12:59 PM.

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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2037096
03/23/16 12:44 PM
03/23/16 12:44 PM
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I thought this was as close to a steak as I ever was gonna get! but my faith in humanity has been restored. Trendz and Mr P body are top notch people.

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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: RapidRobert] #2037104
03/23/16 12:56 PM
03/23/16 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted By RapidRobert
I thought this was as close to a steak as I ever was gonna get! but my faith in humanity has been restored. Trendz and Mr P body are top notch people.
Too funny!! bow


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2037117
03/23/16 01:19 PM
03/23/16 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted By TRENDZ
"Of course the firing event happens in the same place as far as the reluctor and pickup are concerned. The rotor will be ahead of where it was with no advance. It does not have to be spot on under the terminal to have the transfer of the spark."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! the rotor will not be advanced compared to the pickup, reluctor, or cap. It will be in the same position at all engine speeds.
The only change in rotor phase will happen with vacuum advance or external timing controls.



Ok, this is your problem i see. In reference to the phase being off, you can have the spark jump too far away and using a retard it can be worse. You need the rotor tip close to the terminal and not far away when the reluctor meets the pickup. I was posting about the msd video. I see where my statement caused confusion. Moving the adjustable rotor or using a different reluctor changes the alignment. I posted the phasing issue along the way, but you got stuck on this post i believe.

The entire situation stems from people not understanding the timing light will not show them the advancing position unless they dial back to zero. And wanting to bet others about a timing light firing when a spark happens, while not understanding it will still fire when the rotor/reluctor combo is in line with the pickup. Thus we have way way too many posts on this.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2037163
03/23/16 02:33 PM
03/23/16 02:33 PM
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Think of it like this. Take a dist and have someone hold the dist shaft so it wont move. Then grab the rotor and turn the mech advance all the way and line up the rotor where the cap terminal would be with the advance fully advanced. Then have the guy holding the dist shaft let it go while holding the rotor lined up to the caps terminal spot. The advance will move the dist shaft backwards when its let go but the rotor wont move. Then have the person move the advance forward through the advance while still holding the rotor , reluctor and cap terminal lined up and you will see the rotor stays lined up with the cap terminal all through the mechanical advance travel. Its the same thing when the mechanical advance goes through its travel as like I said before the rotor , reluctor and cap terminal will still line up only it lines up sooner since the mechanical advance has come into play. Ron

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2037174
03/23/16 02:50 PM
03/23/16 02:50 PM
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SomeCarGuy,
So watch the video. You will see that the timing light has no dial back. It is a "fixed zero" timing light. NO DIAL.

Rotor, reluctor,pick up and cap all stay in CONSTANT PHASE at all rpm. The only exception is while using vacuum advance.
The only change is the shaft delay to the engine.
If you think that a timing light wont tell you when spark is occuring, then you cant be made to fully understand what a distributor does.

Last edited by TRENDZ; 03/23/16 02:54 PM.

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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2037181
03/23/16 02:56 PM
03/23/16 02:56 PM
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RapidRobert, now I know why you know so much about this electricity stuff!
Your real name is Dr. Emmit Brown. 1.21 jiggawatts!


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2037278
03/23/16 05:25 PM
03/23/16 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted By TRENDZ
SomeCarGuy,
So watch the video. You will see that the timing light has no dial back. It is a "fixed zero" timing light. NO DIAL.

Rotor, reluctor,pick up and cap all stay in CONSTANT PHASE at all rpm. The only exception is while using vacuum advance.
The only change is the shaft delay to the engine.
If you think that a timing light wont tell you when spark is occuring, then you cant be made to fully understand what a distributor does.


You fell overboard and want other people to join you to make yourself feel better. We have been over and over this, yet you still are searching for a way to make yourself feel better. Hubris has led you to this, just stop.

I dont know what in the hell rabbit hole you fell into now. Who said a timing light wont show when a spark occurs? What else is such a tool for?

One more time- the light comes on when it gets a spark. That event time changes as the mech advance moves the rotor/reluctor combo, you will still see the timing light strobe come on in line with the terminal since the reluctor and pickup are now meeting in a new place in the circle. If the phase of the rotor and reluctor are off, the timing event will be seen away from the terminal. If that is happening, you can get a misfire. Correcting that is what adjustable rotors and reluctors are for.

I get it, you dont want to be on the same page after a zillion posts since you didnt catch his bet was about the timing light coming on. I did and after no other explanation as to this "magic," i made one about the rotor moving when the mechanical advance kicks in. It does, despite any other outstanding issue maybe lingering(?), sport440 understands the rotor moves. It has to. Use a dial back light like i said and you'll see. When the rotor moves with advance, we know the reluctor on the same shaft has been moved as well.

If you dont understand that, well whatever.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: 383man] #2037280
03/23/16 05:27 PM
03/23/16 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted By 383man
Think of it like this. Take a dist and have someone hold the dist shaft so it wont move. Then grab the rotor and turn the mech advance all the way and line up the rotor where the cap terminal would be with the advance fully advanced. Then have the guy holding the dist shaft let it go while holding the rotor lined up to the caps terminal spot. The advance will move the dist shaft backwards when its let go but the rotor wont move. Then have the person move the advance forward through the advance while still holding the rotor , reluctor and cap terminal lined up and you will see the rotor stays lined up with the cap terminal all through the mechanical advance travel. Its the same thing when the mechanical advance goes through its travel as like I said before the rotor , reluctor and cap terminal will still line up only it lines up sooner since the mechanical advance has come into play. Ron


Ron gets it.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2037294
03/23/16 06:01 PM
03/23/16 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted By mickm
so the other day while doing a burnout, i was told it sounds like the engine was misfiring.

looking inside the distributor cap, i see there is a fair amount of carbon scoring, sounds like things are jumping around in there.

it is a mopar electronic distributor with the tan cap, and it is vented, and an MSD system.

how do i go about fixing this? is it just possible that the vent isn't enough and i need to drill some more holes in the cap?


Did you ever figure out the problem? It could be a rotor phasing issue. I had that problem a long time ago with my first stroker motor which is why I started to make reluctors with the different offsets. When I checked my rotor alignment the rotor was pointed somewhat close to the right terminal without the vacuum advance hooked up, but once the vacuum advance kicked in the rotor swung far enough over that the spark could jump to the wrong terminal.

Just for the record, mechanical advance does not change the position of the rotor in relationship to the cap. Vacuum advance does since the vacuum can pulls the entire mechanism.

On my stroker motor there was enough intake manifold vacuum that at low throttle or on decel the can would fully advance and the rotor would move enough to cause mis-fire. I fixed it by splitting the difference on the reluctor. I spaced the rotor so it would be a little past the terminal with zero vacuum and then a little ahead of the terminal under full vacuum. That simple fix solved the problem.

I showed my fix to Eberg and he started selling the reluctors to others. I think he still sells them.

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: AndyF] #2038474
03/25/16 02:07 PM
03/25/16 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted By AndyF

Did you ever figure out the problem? It could be a rotor phasing issue. I had that problem a long time ago with my first stroker motor which is why I started to make reluctors with the different offsets. When I checked my rotor alignment the rotor was pointed somewhat close to the right terminal without the vacuum advance hooked up, but once the vacuum advance kicked in the rotor swung far enough over that the spark could jump to the wrong terminal.

Just for the record, mechanical advance does not change the position of the rotor in relationship to the cap. Vacuum advance does since the vacuum can pulls the entire mechanism.

On my stroker motor there was enough intake manifold vacuum that at low throttle or on decel the can would fully advance and the rotor would move enough to cause mis-fire. I fixed it by splitting the difference on the reluctor. I spaced the rotor so it would be a little past the terminal with zero vacuum and then a little ahead of the terminal under full vacuum. That simple fix solved the problem.

I showed my fix to Eberg and he started selling the reluctors to others. I think he still sells them.


andy, thanks for asking.

i don't know yet if i have solved it, car has been out of commission for the last week or so doing some other work.

what i found was some carbon streaking on the rotor where it contacts the cap at the center. i could also see that only the very edge of one side of the rotor tip showed spark traces, and when i aligned it up with the cap, sure enough it was not aligned with the cap terminal on that side. i used one of the offset reluctors to line it up, and it runs fine, but i haven't had a chance to play with it yet. i want to drill a hole in a cap and make sure that it is in line.

interesting about the vacuum advance though, as mine seems to be misfiring under load, although come to think of it, i'm not sure just how much load the engine is under when doing a burnout. high rpm, but doesn't take that much to spin the wheels.

so i still have some investigation to do...

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2038481
03/25/16 02:16 PM
03/25/16 02:16 PM
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It is easy enough to check, especially on a BB or Hemi since the distributor is right up front. Just drill a hole near the #1 post and shine your timing light down in there. If you have a Mityvac you can hook it up to the distributor and pull a vacuum on the can. As you pump up the vacuum you'll see the rotor swing clockwise.

I set up my distributors so the rotor is on the left side of the post with zero vacuum and then the vacuum advance will pull the rotor over to the right side of the post.

That first stroker engine I built had a distributor where the rotor started off on the right side of the post. As I applied vacuum the rotor would swing to the right and you could hear the spark jumping to the wrong post. The engine would start to misfire and run rough. That was a good learning experience for me.

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: AndyF] #2038638
03/25/16 06:56 PM
03/25/16 06:56 PM
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All the drama aside, this post has been very informative for me also.https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/images/icons/default/eek.gif


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: AndyF] #2038698
03/25/16 08:07 PM
03/25/16 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted By AndyF
It is easy enough to check, especially on a BB or Hemi since the distributor is right up front. Just drill a hole near the #1 post and shine your timing light down in there. If you have a Mityvac you can hook it up to the distributor and pull a vacuum on the can. As you pump up the vacuum you'll see the rotor swing clockwise.

I set up my distributors so the rotor is on the left side of the post with zero vacuum and then the vacuum advance will pull the rotor over to the right side of the post.

.


What was your method of adjusting this, a adjustable cap as shown in the MSD vid or did you modify the pickup plate and rotate that.?

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: AndyF] #2038769
03/25/16 09:45 PM
03/25/16 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted By AndyF
It is easy enough to check, especially on a BB or Hemi since the distributor is right up front. Just drill a hole near the #1 post and shine your timing light down in there. If you have a Mityvac you can hook it up to the distributor and pull a vacuum on the can. As you pump up the vacuum you'll see the rotor swing clockwise.

I set up my distributors so the rotor is on the left side of the post with zero vacuum and then the vacuum advance will pull the rotor over to the right side of the post.

That first stroker engine I built had a distributor where the rotor started off on the right side of the post. As I applied vacuum the rotor would swing to the right and you could hear the spark jumping to the wrong post. The engine would start to misfire and run rough. That was a good learning experience for me.
Actually, I set mine up so that under full load ( no or low vacuum) the rotor lines up perfectly with the cap terminal and under light load ( Vacuum advance in action ), the rotor lines up with about 1/2 the cap terminal. To the OP, Although Phasing the rotor to the cap is always a good thing to do / check and in that regard this is a good post, this did not solve my missing problem under load. My carb was about 5 jet sizes too rich ( although it had the "out of the box size jets in it ). Just so you keep and open mind to your problem. work


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2038801
03/25/16 10:33 PM
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I machined a new slot in the reluctor to change the position of where the rotor is when the reluctor trips the circuit.

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: AndyF] #2039248
03/26/16 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted By AndyF
I machined a new slot in the reluctor to change the position of where the rotor is when the reluctor trips the circuit.


i used the same. i have had it for a while, i think someone in this thread posted an ebay link to the guy who sells them.

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2043932
04/01/16 10:17 PM
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i know this thread has died of natural causes, but thought i would give an update.

with the new slotted reluctor in, and a hole drilled in the cap, the rotor is dead on the terminal. also, as has already been reported and verified here, the position of the rotor did not move as the mechanical advance came on.

while the FSM says vacuum advance is only about 10 degrees, i have no idea if that is also the case for the mopar electronic distributor i have in there, but it looks like it. with the engine running and the timing light shining, using a mighty vac i brought in all of the advance and the rotor was still in a good position to the terminal.

so, don't know if this was my issue yet, but this is certainly one thing out of the picture!

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2043935
04/01/16 10:22 PM
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Good deal. That mity vac is a handy little tool to keep around the shop. I use mine all the time. Makes a test like this easy to do and you can also test power valves to see when they open up (they open really slow for those who haven't tested them). With the right attachment you can bleed your brakes or the clutch or other such stuff and you can test various vacuum operated things in the car. In the 70's almost everything was vacuum operated but these days it is all digital stepper motors so the Mity Vac isn't quite so useful on modern cars.

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