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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2036169
03/22/16 12:59 AM
03/22/16 12:59 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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You also said that mech adv changes rotor phasing which was my original post that it did not. I originally made a statement in a post (that got this started) that only vac changes RP, You said that mechanical adv changes RP (& this was our bet). We confirmed that it (mech) does not change it. You made a comment about me paying a charity & sending (might have been showing) you the receipt so I'm assuming you are/were in for ten. You owe me ten plus an apology (not for your position but for all of your out of line ventings). PS I just noticed your signature whatever they call that automated line that gets put in at the bottom of a persons' response. So what are you gonna do?


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2036178
03/22/16 01:13 AM
03/22/16 01:13 AM
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I kept saying the rotor and reluctor are a fixed relationship. The text i cut and posted from the article says that. I do see one post where it might have been unclear, as trendz took it another way due to the wording. I dont think we are/were talking about the same thing.

The rotor changes position but the timing light still fires when the spark occurs. I thought you were saying the rotor wouldnt be in a different spot in relation to the cap, as if it moved independently of the reluctor or something.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: krautrock] #2036182
03/22/16 01:17 AM
03/22/16 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted By krautrock
the magic trick is that you can't "see" the rotor move with the timing light

since the mech adv can't possibly physically move the cap the rotor/reluctor have to move to change the timing...the msd link states it and shows it, the distributor machine will show it too. but the timing light probably doens't show it and that's gonna be the point RR sticks too...



This guy called it.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: RapidRobert] #2036190
03/22/16 01:32 AM
03/22/16 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Originally Posted By SomeCarGuy
Originally Posted By RapidRobert
Quote:
And that you send me money for the free education. Lots of it. Money. Send it.
Are you in for ten?



That the rotor will move in relation to the cap when advanced by the mechanical advance?

Yes. My position is: a regular dist with vac adv and mech adv with no weird add ons such as nitrous retard etc, that the mech adv does not change rotor phasing so if you cap the can the RP will not change at any amount of mech advance and RP will be checked by tossing on a cap with the hole drilled in the top then using a timing light to in effect freeze it (which is how RP is checked), that the rotor will NOT shift/move... (I feel like I am drawing up a legal document!). One Moparter to another, you would be betting that the rotor phasing will move with mech adv only and I will cover the bet for ten. (I have PP and I can send a ten dollar bill in an envelope to take care of my end as needed). I just checked the dist in my truck 3 days ago & reconfirmed my position, the rotor did not budge when I revved it high with the can unplugged/hose capped and I was definitely up high enough to be into the springs/advancing. Are you in brother!



I hope the line above bolded like i want it to. If not, it is the one about the rotor not budging. I think that is the one that sent me off the rails. Reading it more i think you were including the comment about using the timing light, while i took it you were saying it didnt move. The shaft didnt move forward that is, when the advance kicked in. Throw that in with the talk about magic and maybe you can see my confusion about what was being discussed.



I just went back and bolded what I was keying off of pertaining to the "bet." I realize we werent on the same page so it's fine to forget it. I posted the one sentence statement and the very next thing i saw was the word yes. Hence my thoughts were colored by that and the above about not seeing movement. That is why i kept saying things were frozen up, locked or whatever if the rotor isnt moving.

Add to that P body said things like the timing light would still fire at the time of the spark, mark the distributor and you'll see the movement, etc and when you kept saying it was magic and kept pushing bets, i thought you were talking about something else going on.

Last edited by SomeCarGuy; 03/22/16 02:11 AM. Reason: Clarity on the infernal issue

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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2036287
03/22/16 09:06 AM
03/22/16 09:06 AM
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RR made it perfectly clear what he was talking about.
Your pages of posts are wrong.
Just admit it.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2036297
03/22/16 09:43 AM
03/22/16 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted By TRENDZ
RR made it perfectly clear what he was talking about.
Your pages of posts are wrong.
Just admit it.


x2.

Thanks for the videos, Trendz. The MSD video muddied the waters, but we were assuming a bunch about their distributor setup when now it's clear they were just controlling timing via an ignition box to show how rotor phasing changes with ECU generated timing curves.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2036300
03/22/16 09:58 AM
03/22/16 09:58 AM
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hey BLAZIN' BOB......... are you now gonna go by "the ADVANCE AZZ" ?????
laugh2 whistling wrench catfight just kidding ! just kidding! this has been a VERY thought provoking discussion indeed ! i even went to the shelf and grabbed a partially dis-assembled distributor to see if i could mimic the action without the housing in the way so i could see better. one question if i may. would this be easier to see if a wide cap were to be used, such as a "cap-a-dapt" setup, or possibly use a 4cylinder distributor ? anyway, thank you for this discussion ! and i repeat : I'M JUST KIDDING !" i ain't looking to get banned, pounded, or have you mad at me !
beer

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2036316
03/22/16 10:44 AM
03/22/16 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted By TRENDZ
RR made it perfectly clear what he was talking about.
Your pages of posts are wrong.
Just admit it.


X3, from the very beginning RR position was clear. Either pay up or send the money to a charity of his choice, show the receipt of course.

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: moparx] #2036342
03/22/16 11:16 AM
03/22/16 11:16 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Nah its all good! Somecarguy I believe I had posted/clarified my assertion that "rotor phasing would not change from mech adv" and that only vac adv would alter it & no I was not referring to the rotor not moving or timing change or anything else off on a tangent that you were saying, just strickly that when you hit the rotor with the light (which is how RP is checked) that it will not move & we are on for ten cuz you directed me where to send my tuition if I lost. Send me ten to my PP and we're good and order will be restored to the universe. Are you a man of your word, that is the question now? Moparx, we absolutely good brother & yeah just grab one of your dists & dont even need the cap so a regular dist will work fine & do the 12 0'clock deal I posted way back & you'll see it. the bennie that might come out of this is that some dists have way off RP & if it is on the edge & causes a miss under load at speed it might be a MF to track down. You can pump up the can on your bench with a Mityvac & check it. retract rotor all the way (the springs should already be doing this). make a mark on the dist top rim perimeter to note current rotor location. put cap on & make another mark just below where cap meets housing at the center of the particular cap bulge where the rotor is. remove cap & compare the distance between the two now then pump up the can and make another mark where the rotor ends up. ideally you want the cap terminal to be centered inbetween the "swing" of the arc and if it is a bit off I like it to be closer at zero vac cuz that is where it will be at WOT when the required voltage is the greatest and the available voltage is the lowest (less coil saturation time cuz of high RPM) and the can will shift RP CCW on a SB and CW on a BB. several ways to correct including Ebergs redrilled reluctor or redrill you own, high quality drill bit in a bit from the ID then open it up out to the ID with a high quality mini file or widen the rotor slot in the upper shaft then close the other side with some JBweld (I ain't done it yet but I'm gonna sometime). in addition to circumferential distance there is radial distance (& they both add up). NAPA sells the MO3000 rotor with a .060" longer blade but you can make your own by drilling out the rivet in the stock rotor & making a new blade. Ideally your want .015" rotor tip to cap terminal clearance or pretty close to that. any distance that the spark has to jump is wasted energy & ups the required voltage & stresses the coil. If you ain't using vac adv you can pump up the can till the RP is dead on then drill a hole inbetween the two plates and lock them (the plates) in that position with a mini bolt/nut with a spacer inbetween the plates so that they do not tilt when you snug the bolt & use a drop of loctite. Somecarguy lets settle up on the ten.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2036348
03/22/16 11:26 AM
03/22/16 11:26 AM
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Why make a big deal about a timing light showing a spark? That's normal operation and expected. To carry on about it being some sort of magic or unexpected is weird and shouldnt be up for debate. I clearly asked if he was saying the rotor wouldn't move and he said yes. That was a yes or no question, which is why I asked it to get a simple yes or no.

That was the bet I agreed to. I saw no "magic" in a timing light coming on when it sensed a spark. If other people made bets different than the one i did, fine. Settle up on those. I'm not paying someone based on what others did. That would be like betting the line of a game based on a certain number and settling on a different number after the fact.

Robert, your writing tons and tons about this is what caused the confusion. That's why I asked it in the one sentence I bolded above.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2036356
03/22/16 11:48 AM
03/22/16 11:48 AM
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The rotor won't change in relation to the cap.

What will change is the pickup plate, and where it is located in relation to that rotor.


Weights move out, and cam the pickup plate into a different timing area.

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: redmist] #2036367
03/22/16 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted By redmist
The rotor won't change in relation to the cap.

What will change is the pickup plate, and where it is located in relation to that rotor.


Weights move out, and cam the pickup plate into a different timing area.






^ Case in point right here. This is where we are at because of tons of words being bandied about on the topic.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: redmist] #2036387
03/22/16 12:29 PM
03/22/16 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted By redmist
The rotor won't change in relation to the cap.

What will change is the pickup plate, and where it is located in relation to that rotor.


Weights move out, and cam the pickup plate into a different timing area.




The weights have nothing to do with pick up position.

Pick up position only changes with vacuum advance.

From the pick up plate's perspective, the weights put a delay in shaft rotation to the engine.(see video) This is what makes the engine timing change.
Upper distributor sync does not change with mechanical advance.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2036396
03/22/16 12:37 PM
03/22/16 12:37 PM
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All you have to do is think about it backwards..
when the relutor lines up the crank moved... not
the rotor... the bottom of the dist moved.. not
the top
wave

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2036818
03/22/16 10:47 PM
03/22/16 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted By SomeCarGuy
I kept saying the rotor and reluctor are a fixed relationship. The text i cut and posted from the article says that. I do see one post where it might have been unclear, as trendz took it another way due to the wording. I dont think we are/were talking about the same thing.

The rotor changes position but the timing light still fires when the spark occurs. I thought you were saying the rotor wouldnt be in a different spot in relation to the cap, as if it moved independently of the reluctor or something.



I don't care about any bet, but want to know if you understand it now. I do know that you thought the rotor would move from the terminal like in the First vid from MSD. That was your proof , you made that clear to me.


Don't care about the bet, want to know if you've been enlightened/educated as I have. To me, its about passing the knowledge.

Read my first 5 or so posts, I was right with you brother, before I understood it and saw the Light. Im not sure your there yet, Are you??? up

Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2036889
03/23/16 12:27 AM
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" This was never about money, rather i have an active distaste for misinformation being spread." iagree

Where did I hear that? grin


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2036911
03/23/16 01:16 AM
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Sport440, The video had a low angle and you could see the rotor move, that is what was the point. It's clear to me you didnt understand that movement was the point. There was never any question for me(although 15,000 posts can get words twisted up as only so many ways to say the same thing, so maybe not clear after a bunch) as to when a timing light would fire, hence it made no sense to have lengthy posts about it. A video of a timing light firing when a spark is delivered isnt something to find amazment in. When a dial back light was suggested to show the movement, it didnt cause the post to end, only more talk about bets; it looked like he was saying something else explains it, other than rotor movement. So i distilled it down to a narrow parameter of does the rotor move in relation to the cap. As I posted many times, that moves the reluctor in unison.

I thought we already went over this front and back, maybe you didnt take it that way. The rotor has to move in relation to the cap in order for there to be a spark at a different time under mech advance. That's not magic.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: TRENDZ] #2036912
03/23/16 01:18 AM
03/23/16 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted By TRENDZ
" This was never about money, rather i have an active distaste for misinformation being spread." iagree

Where did I hear that? grin


A wise man coined that for you.


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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: SomeCarGuy] #2036995
03/23/16 09:21 AM
03/23/16 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted By SomeCarGuy
Sport440, The video had a low angle and you could see the rotor move, that is what was the point. It's clear to me you didnt understand that movement was the point. There was never any question for me(although 15,000 posts can get words twisted up as only so many ways to say the same thing, so maybe not clear after a bunch) as to when a timing light would fire, hence it made no sense to have lengthy posts about it. A video of a timing light firing when a spark is delivered isnt something to find amazment in. When a dial back light was suggested to show the movement, it didnt cause the post to end, only more talk about bets; it looked like he was saying something else explains it, other than rotor movement. So i distilled it down to a narrow parameter of does the rotor move in relation to the cap. As I posted many times, that moves the reluctor in unison

I thought we already went over this front and back, maybe you didnt take it that way. The rotor has to move in relation to the cap in order for there to be a spark at a different time under mech advance. That's not magic.



So, in basic English, You still don't get it. haha

Last edited by TRENDZ; 03/23/16 09:22 AM.

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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap [Re: mickm] #2037030
03/23/16 11:06 AM
03/23/16 11:06 AM
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Oh good grief! whats causing you trouble? The talk of timing retard in the video? The timing light coming on at different times when the reluctor moves in relation to the pickup? That the rotor is tied to the reluctor? You still think the rotor is in the same position after the advance kicks in? Man you are struggling with this.


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