Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
#202543
01/24/09 12:25 AM
01/24/09 12:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,847 Missouri
StrokerPost
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OP
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Posts: 6,847
Missouri
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Ok, this is a fuel pressure question pertaining to WOT only. I'll use my car as the subject. I run a Mallory 140 pump fed by 10AN line from the cell to the pump, then 8AN all the way forward to the reg, then dual 6AN lines, one to each bowl and the press gage is reading press to the rear bowl, just off the reg. I set the press at 7.5 psi. At WOT, in high gear the cowl mounted gage will always be flicking between 6.5 & 7 psi, so obviously, its not maintaining press at WOT. My engine builder is always on me about correcting that to keep the press steady at whatever I have it set at, said I'm probably leaving something on the table ET wise. I've always maintained that that little bit of fluxuation isnt enough to be hurting anything, after all, the car is a deadly consistant, multi winning car (not to be read as bragging) so why waste $$$ to have a steady gage. This "fluxuation" has me puzzled now though, and I'm wondering, in a race environment, at WOT, how big a deal is it to rely on the low press area in the intake to PULL fuel through the jets vs adequate press PUSHING fuel to the jets? Obviously the car will run fine with fluxuating gage, but are you REALLY giving up any REAL performance by NOT having full press at WOT? I've always kinda thought that the engine will pull what it needs so long as the bowls arent being sucked dry, and with only about 3/4 of a pound loss in press I dont see that happening, but, I'm willing to listen and explore that possibility. I'm not looking for ideas on a new pump or why the press is fluxuating, but is this an issue or not, with some explanation. Thanks for any and all input, I want to put this to rest in my head once and for all. Ken.
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: TS3303]
#202547
01/24/09 01:30 AM
01/24/09 01:30 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,847 Missouri
StrokerPost
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Quote:
you are seeing the needle opening and closing. You will also never "push" fuel through the jets, thats not how a carburetor works. The bowls are not pressurized, they are filled to a level set by the float.
Yep, thats why I said "to" the jets instead of through the jets. I was just referring to the pumps ability to keep the bowl full all the time. Well you and DT seem to be viewing it as I have been, not a big deal. Thanks for your thoughts guys. Any others care to weigh in? I am FAR from being an expert on this stuff and I know there are a bunch of savy guys here.
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: StrokerPost]
#202549
01/24/09 02:34 AM
01/24/09 02:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Someone made a comment recently(in the last year, if I remember correctly) that they wanted the fuel pressure set at or under 5.5 to 6.5 lbs to reduce the possibility of aerating the fuel from the tank to the carbs I had my fuel pressure set at the regulator with the engine running at a idle at 9.5 lbs, I reduced it to 6.5 lbs and didn't see any noticeable change at the track or on the street My car is not real fast (10:34 best ET in the 1/4 mile) so my results may not carry any weight, your results may vary I did find out later using a O2 wide ban that the car didn't have a good enough fuel system to allow me to fatten up the carbs big enough to slow the car down until I switch pumps from a Magnafuel 275 to a Magnafuel 300 pump,whch did slow the car down with no other changes made to the car except the pump switch My message is if you can slow the car down in 1/4 MPH by fattening the mixture up enough until it slows down your fuel delivery system is probally okay, no matter what the fuel pressure gauges reads during the run, if you can't fatten it up enough to slow the cars MPH down you probally have a fuel delivery problem. I did not say fuel pressure problem Air in the line can compress showing pressure when it is not all fuel in the line flowing
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: dthemi]
#202550
01/24/09 03:24 AM
01/24/09 03:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
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I Win
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Quote:
Doesn't sound like anything to worry about to me. I think it's flickering because the pump is sufficient for the job. The seat opens, the pressure drops, it closes and it spikes back up. Dead head regs do that. I've got a Magnafuel 500 with 12 to 10 to 4 -6 lines and it flickers around too, even with air bleeders back to the tank, and it does it idling or at wot, just faster at wot. If it were steady and dropping I'd worry about that, because it'll only be steady while the seats are open or completely shut. Oil filled gauges or isolated gauges look steady because of the snubbing effect they have. A dry gauge close to the carb, or on the reg reads totally different than the others.
with DT and TS
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: StrokerPost]
#202552
01/24/09 08:47 AM
01/24/09 08:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339 somwhere
smokinwoody
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Quote:
I run a Mallory 140 pump fed by 10AN line from the cell to the pump, then 8AN all the way forward to the reg, then dual 6AN lines, one to each bowl and the press gage is reading press to the rear bowl, just off the reg.
While we're discussing it, does anyone here see a problem with the way I've got it plumbed? (above and attach) Pic is just to show where I'm picking up the press reading. The line goes to a cowl mounted gage.
I see no problem with what you have...mines almost a carbon copy and keeps fuel pressure rock stable and fuel delivery is no problem..
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: StrokerPost]
#202555
01/24/09 10:23 AM
01/24/09 10:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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If you want to get rid of the needle flicker put a orfice in the gauge. See if it has a screw in orfice, if not you can put one at the inlet... use about a .020 orfice max... this will slow the gauge down but still be correct.... remember your dealing with air here, its not liquid and air compresses
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: StrokerPost]
#202556
01/24/09 10:50 AM
01/24/09 10:50 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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How big a deal is it to rely on the low press area in the intake to PULL fuel through the jets vs adequate press PUSHING fuel to the jets? Also once the fuel enters the bowl its no longer under pressure(the bowls have a vent) so atmospheric pressure is at work from this point on. The pressure pushes, the neg pressure in the intake(cylinders) creates the place for the charge to go.
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: Dunnuck Racing]
#202558
01/24/09 11:45 AM
01/24/09 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Quote:
In my opinion,pressure is not nearly as important as volume.It would not matter if the pressure dropped to 1 p.s.i.,so long as the bowls stay full.The reason the pressure is set where we do is to overcome the restrictions to get the fuel into the bowl.
Very true on the volume. The reason we use 7.5 or so(based on the gauge accuracy)is because if you go much higher it will blow the needle off of the seat. Also the thing with pressure is... its a by-product of resriction, the greater the restriction the greater the pressure untill you reach the max of the supply pressure. So that 7.5 psi is what the needle and seat are holding
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: 70blackfish]
#202562
01/24/09 02:20 PM
01/24/09 02:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,097 back in Georgia
dthemi
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About volume and maintaining pressure, I can pull a -6 line off, put it in a jug and my pressure will stay where it's set as if no fuel were flowing. If your pressure is dropping going down the track you don't have enough pump because it can't keep up with the needles and seats being wide open for long. If the pressure is dropping the fuel level in the bowls is going down. It may not be enough, or long enough to run them dry, but it is going down. Splitting hairs on it means that with the bowl level going down you can be sucking some air into the mains with all the vibration, bouncing of the car, and the fuel spraying into the bowl, and the weight of fuel over the jet. I've seen cars slow down when they put enough pump on the car to keep the pressure because the car got enough fuel on the other end to go fat. What I'm saying is if a car with too small a fuel system get's tuned well it'll have too large a main jet to keep it from going lean on the other end. when you give it the pump it needs it'll go fat. Agreed most pumps are more than enough for the job, but that's so much better to tune with than the alternative, one less variable in your tuning equation.
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Re: Help me get my mind around this...accurately.
[Re: moparmanjames]
#202564
01/25/09 02:20 PM
01/25/09 02:20 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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The way I look at it is, if the gauge is moving around, then the float bowl probably isn't staying full............and if the float bowl isn't full, that means that the engine would have to suck harder to get the fuel up the main well........It's like trying to drink a pop with a ten foot long straw......You'd have to work harder to get it up that far............so, in my opinion, so I can sleep better at night, I'd want it to be rock steady..........
Have any of you guys seen where a guy will raise the float level on a motor that's on a dyno to fatten the fuel curve? I've seen guys pick up power by just changing the float level.......
Will it make your car any faster? Who knows......it depends on whether your motor needs the extra fuel or not.........
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